Does anyone else feel me on this one?!

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30 comments, last by Obscure 19 years, 8 months ago
Quote:Original post by JWollin
NOWHERE on the forum does it stipulate that a post MUST include payment

That's an entirely different story. Originally you said that people flame you for offerring help ("help" being asking them to work for free). Frankly when people ask me to do work and make it look like they're helping me, I tend not to react in a nice way. At the very least they have to convince me that there will be some benefit to me (for instance that I'll work with really intelligent people that will teach me new things).

If you're just referring to people like yourself trying to find help from others, that's an entirely different story. In this case I completely agree with you. It's just that your original post made it look differently.
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Quote:Original post by CoffeeMug
That's an entirely different story. Originally you said that people flame you for offerring help ("help" being asking them to work for free). Frankly when people ask me to do work and make it look like they're helping me, I tend not to react in a nice way. At the very least they have to convince me that there will be some benefit to me (for instance that I'll work with really intelligent people that will teach me new things).


You should take this point to heart. While your case may be different, normally when an "employer" is trying to get an individual to work for less (or no) money under the argument that "I'm the one helping you", it's because they are a dirty con artist, or they are shady employer looking to exploit wet behind the ears workers (usually recent graduates, students, and immigrants) by playing the imaginary benefits game. The individuals you are looking to work for you are all relatively smart, and so it becomes likely that they will be insulted if they feel you are trying to pull such a scam - not just because they think you are trying to defraud them, but because they think you are showing them an extreme amount of disrespect by acting as if they are morons who don't know how the world works.

Frankly getting a few angry comments may be the worst of your worries. As mentioned, normally the only kind of deffered payment work is for work that is presented in a completed form by an individual. In those cases it is pretty cut and dry whether the company accepts the work and pays the worker, or doesn't accept the work (in which case they can derive no benefit from it) and not pay the worker. In your case you are getting people to work in a matter that you will receive the benefit of their labor regardless of whether they get payed or not. As you yourself have explained, you are "hiring" individuals whom you believe are highly questionable as to their abilities (otherwise you would be paying them properly). This means there is a high chance that you might decide their work is substandard or their ability to operate properly in your business unacceptable, and fire them (or being young, they might quit). And at that point, you have some very serious legal problems, as it would be very easy to come back and sue you (there are suffient grounds for the case to be heard in court regardless of how obvious the outcome, which means you will be paying lawyer fees). With more then one firing (as becomes more likely with you intentionally hiring employees you consider substandard from the beginning) you create a situation where just about any judge is going to conclude that your hire, work without pay, fire without pay, are part of a defined company policy - the resulting decision would likely decimate your company (and yourself if you have linked your finances).

Frankly, you really need to talk to a competent lawyer about this before you really screw yourself over.
Quote:Original post by JWollin
Again, just to note, I am not playing for sympathy for my own sake at all here. I can get by, my studio will survive the loss of a few green people, that is not my concern. My concern is MORE with the thousands of other people who post looking for help, many of which WILL fail. However, I also believe that many of the ones that fail will fail largely due to a lack of support from the community and a lack of help in making their visions a tangible development.



If these people with their "visions" are truly motivated and capable of carrying out their ideas in the first place, they will either know or realize very quickly that Help Wanted on GameDev is not the place to build the beginnings of your corporate empire. There are other, far more effective tools for building teams - including the commercial classifieds on this site.

Projects here do not fail because of lack of community support. It isn't the community's job to make everyone else's dreams come true in the first place. Projects here fail because the people behind them do not understand how to make them succeed. I've both started and been involved in the early phases of several projects and businesses which are now quite successful - none of them relied on tools like the Help Wanted forum to build their teams. There are far more networking and recruiting skills (and tools) out there than bulletin boards, and virtually all of them are more effective than bulletin boards.

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
[Work - ArenaNet] [Epoch Language] [Scribblings]

I thank you for everyone's intelligent and well thought out responses. This is what I was hoping for in posting here. I simply wanted to bring to light the difficulties that a lot of people are facing in trying to find help.

I would only ask that you not make speculations about my company based on my opinions or views based in here. Please also do not make legal speculations based on my words in this forum. Whereas I appreciate the advice and comments regarding this matter and the possible legal ramifications, you are making the assumption that just because I am speaking my mind in defense of people looking for free help, means that my company, or my company's lawyers have recommended the "taking advantage" of so-called, "wet behind the ears" noobs. I am just making a personal point.

In summation, my whole opinion is simply this: I don't think that the so-called wet behind the ears noobs, should be so quick to dismiss all possibilities that come their way. I have been in this game for a while and I know how hard it is to break into this industry.

I think that people should be greatful for opportunities to work with other people in any regard. Even if the company fails or the development stalls, you have learned how to work in a team, and you have learned the mistakes NOT to make in the future, and if you are 20 years old and still in college, let's face it, that's something you still have to learn. It's all part of learning.

Some people just want someone to hand them an easy road, a quick paycheck, they think they deserve it because the draw well, and I personally think that those people are lazy, unmotivated, and will not amount to anything worthwhile in any aspect of life other than to provide mildly amusing forum banter.

I have been a composer for 16 years now, I have written film scores and game scores, I have written orchestral commissions and you know what? I STILL don't get hired on a regular basis, I still have a lot to learn, I would still take a learning experience if one was offered, not be so egotistical as to be insulted by someone offering an opportunity.

If I felt it was below my skill level I would simply say no thank you and explain my reasons. Blowing up and flaming them for asking would be the least professional and most childish way to respond that I can think of, save egging their car while they're sleeping.

[Edited by - JWollin on August 18, 2004 12:53:15 PM]
JAY (NAVARONE) WOLLINcomposer: www.JayWollin.comlead designer/developer: Epiphany 6 Studios
The difference between you and a newcomer is that you have enough experience to know how things work. The newbies don't. I've spent quite a lot of time on the forums for one of my employers (a game development house) trying to explain to people how the game industry works. I've had only marginal success. It's one of those things you can't really understand from the outside looking in; you have to have real experience to know how and understand why things are the way they are.

Someone fresh out of college with a shiny new degree has been conditioned, both by society as a whole and their educational process, to believe that their degree makes them attractive to employers. In some rare cases this is true - but in the real world a degree does not equal a job. Until the newcomers have some actual real life experience under their belts, they will not realize that they are not entitled to a job because they have skills and a piece of shiny paper.

You and I (and hopefully the vast bulk of the industry) would not shun a learning experience, or reject an opportunity to be a part of a team for the experience itself. But the people you are talking about - the fresh and naive - don't see things the same way in most cases. Part of the challenge of dealing with new game-industry hopefuls is helping them to understand just how harsh and brutal the industry can be, without demolishing them in the process. I think if you examine how you're dealing with people, and perhaps investigate the possibility of trying to help educate them about the realities of the industry, you may get much better results in the future.

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
[Work - ArenaNet] [Epoch Language] [Scribblings]

Thank you for that. I greatly appreciated that last post. I do think you have a very good point, and in fact, I think I will take your advice to heart and re-evaluate the way we view our hiring process. We have been alright so far in finding the people we want, but in the future a more enlightened view will come in handy. Thank you again, I only hope that the other people who are looking for team members can figure out some way to get through to them as well.
JAY (NAVARONE) WOLLINcomposer: www.JayWollin.comlead designer/developer: Epiphany 6 Studios
I'm not sure I understand how your organization works, but I'd totally be willing to work on any project with anyone for no money. I just want to be able to interect with other people with various levels of experience on the same aspects of a project so that when I stumble I can get help. I'm learning 3ds max and directx with c++ and I run into linker problems. I know I could do some wicked shit if I could just get someone that could help me answer the basic questions I have. I could care less about money. I just want to do something awesome... or even something complete. So if you want to hire me, I've got all the time in the world to learn and code and create graphics. I'm a freshman in computer science. I got my english composition out of the way this summer and am starting precal and cs100 next week. I know it will be slow and boring because I already know oop and all that, but I'm hoping maybe I will learn how to get the damn linker to work with DX. I'm thinking, I'm just missing some basic steps, but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. once I pass that hurdle, I'll just learn the dx api and then I'm making games like Empire Earth. Okay, maybe I'm disillusioned, but hay, if you shoot for the stars, you'll at least hit the moon right?

So, if anyone is out there that might be able to help me out with basics, I'd be willing to work on whatever project they want, for free. Programming is fun for me. That's why I figure I should get a degree in it. If I can eventually make money doing what I am most passionate about doing, my life will be a coke-drinking, cheetoh-eating heaven, forever...

I don't really drink coke or eat cheetohs, but I do have my vices.

What I'm saying is. I have the time. I don't have a job because I did 4 years in the Marines (waste of 4 years if not for the GI Bill) So now I have the GI Bill paying my rent and food and financial aid paying for college. I do nothing but sit here in my room all day long and try to learn Direct X and 3ds Max. I'm making progress with max, but vc++ is a pain in my ass.

I thought about going back and making a text-based mmorpg like dragonrealms or something. I could probably do that. But I'd still have to use some net library and I can't figure out linker errors! Someone, please help me! I am at your mercy!
Quote:Original post by JWollin
... they think they deserve it because the draw well, and I personally think that those people are lazy, unmotivated, and will not amount to anything worthwhile blah blah ...
They deserve it because game development takes a LOT more than just being able to draw well. Its hard work, made infinitely harder when the team is made of inexperienced members.

At the end of the day this is your company and the long term benefits (equity and IP) are yours supposedly because you take the risk. There is no reason why anyone else should take the risk of working for nothing to get your company started.

P.S. No offence intended but putting paragraphs would make it much easier to read your posts properly.
Dan Marchant - Business Development Consultant
www.obscure.co.uk
You don't know how many times I looked back at the posts and wondered if I should've put them in ;) Thanks. I will edit now.
JAY (NAVARONE) WOLLINcomposer: www.JayWollin.comlead designer/developer: Epiphany 6 Studios
Another thing to consider is that (as Obscure mentioned) game development is much messier when the team is largely newbies. If you are seriously committed to your goal of helping newcomers break into the industry, do them (and yourself) a massive favor. Don't try to build a newbie team and expect things to work. Instead, get as much collective experience together as you can in your initial team, and then bring on the newbies to take apprentice-style positions in the team. Give them real, productive goals so that they can contribute to the team, but make sure there is always someone with some experience and wisdom who can bail them out. In this way you will both provide an excellent entry point for industry hopefuls, and spare yourself the trouble of trying to ride herd on a team that doesn't know what it's doing.

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
[Work - ArenaNet] [Epoch Language] [Scribblings]

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