Okay, I had to come somewhere and rant. I wanted to know if anyone else feels the same way that I do. First of all, to preface the situation, I am the lead designer and developer of a game development company. We started a policy way back in the day saying that we would only hire people from the ground up to give more people opportunities. This was a major policy for us, it would give new people the chance to get into game development and it would give us some fantastic new team members who had the time to develop their skills to a highly professional degree. BUT... could this work? Apparently not. I have had no larger headaches in my entire business career than the ones I am left with after taking flamings from the same people we are trying to help. Everyone in the forums that I encounter thinks that a magical money genie is going to appear and make them all lots of money. First of all, ask any major player in the industry if they do it for money, or if the money is even all that great. Second, there are people in here with NO industry experience whatsoever who have the audacity to thumb their noses at a job that has a deffered payment structure! Does anyone else find it appauling and offensive that when attempting to give opportunities back to the community we should encounter such attitudes? Since when doess a complete noob have the right to criticize a retail project? I for one am tired of being flamed for being one of the few people to offer an in. Let me wrap things up by making a statement to all of the people who are currently reading this and preparing their firey response. If you have no expereience in the industry, either interact with the community as a willing student and get some, or STFU and sit down and leave all of these independent projects alone. They are doing what you don't have the ability or stones to do, and if you are in fact experienced and you're just too good for the project. Move along! For my last words, kudos to all those independent project leaders out there who have the courage to do something new! Warmest Regards- Jay A. Wollin (Navarone) Epiphany 6 Studios San Diego, CA JayWollin@e6studios.com (criticisms openly welcomed and encouraged) [Edited by - JWollin on August 18, 2004 12:15:15 PM]

Quote:Original post by JWollin
There are people in here with NO industry experience whatsoever who have the audacity to thumb their noses at a job that has a deffered payment structure.

You offer people to work for you with no compensation in return and you get offended when people choose not to accept the position?

No... not at all. I get offended when people feel the need to go out of their way to flame anyone trying to find help.

Also, a contractual agreement for deffered payments, is compensation. An author who writes a book does not recieve his payment until after he submits the final manuscript, a painter does not get paid for his art until he delivers the finished work, unless of course they have outstanding repoire with their publisher. This makes perfect sense.

[Edited by - JWollin on August 18, 2004 12:20:41 PM]

i thought authors who wrote books either wrote them in their spare time, then went looking for a publisher, or got advances from the publisher after writing a few sample chapters.

After having worked for a book publisher for 6 years I can honestly tell you no, that's not how it works generally, although I did make the statement that if they had exceptional repoire ith their publisher they would be exempt from that generalization.

Authors who have written successful books in the past frequently recieve advances on their upcoming titles. Most authors do not write in their spare time, for many it is their sole income. So, following suit, I would expect to pay an advance, or even a salary to a seasoned vet in the industry. I would not, however, pick up a former modder with no college qualifications and no industry experience and advance them their funds. That would be foolish considering most people at that level have the commitment level of a 42nd street prostitute.

Please don't make the error of assuming that I think people are not deserving of pay. Just understand from a business end the qualified risks involved in starting out green people.

[Edited by - JWollin on August 18, 2004 12:35:41 PM]

Quote:Original post by JWollin
I get offended when people feel the need to go out of their way to flame anyone trying to find help.

There have been thousands of posts offerring deferred payments for work that never went anywhere. If you want people not to flame you you have to provide sufficient proof that your company has funding and won't go under in two weeks. Even so, you can offer *some* base salary as evidence that you're financially stable. You expect people to give you the benefit of the doubt while you refuse to give them benefit of the doubt until after their work is done. It just doesn't work that way.

Quote:Original post by JWollin
An author who writes a book does not recieve his payment until after he submits the final manuscript, a painter does not get paid for his art until he delivers the finished work, unless of course they have outstanding repoire with their publisher. This makes perfect sense.

First, there are always advances. Second, publishers can provide sufficient proof of financial stability. Third, these types of work differ from programming simply because writer and painter work alone while programmer more often than not works with a team.

Quote:Original post by JWollin
After having worked for a book publisher for 6 years I can honestly tell you no, that's not how it works generally

In the cases where there are no advances, the situation is different from the one you describe. An author tries to sell something they've made. An author does not do work for a publisher. If a writer is asked to do custom work he will always get an advance. Nobody ever does custom work for free.

I think you have a fair point as far as the deferred payments go, but to be honest, it's basically impossible (not to mention unwise) to try and take sides in this kind of issue without background details. If someone did not properly understand the contract, or was expecting something besides deferred payment, and they went off on you, I'd be inclined to say it's your own fault for not communicating fully what your plans are. I've been guilty of that in the past and it can cause all kinds of problems - and the natural reflex is to shift off the blame to someone else and play the "victimization" card.

Now I don't mean to blatantly accuse you of anything, or even to suggest that this is all your fault; but to be honest the information you provide is a bit one-sided, and if you're looking for sympathy or agreement, you may do well to provide as much of the situation from another point of view as you can. If I had come to you and asked for an advance, and been told that my contract was deferred-payment only, in the same tone that you used for this post, you can bet I'd be pissed off at you - and I'm hardly a nooblet with no experience in the software industry.

So in summary, if you really are the victim of a mass of senseless ill will, you have my sympathy. If you're playing for support and agreement by only presenting your side of the issue, then you do not.

Now please note again, that I was not strictly refering to my own situation. I am speaking to defend the rights of all people in the community trying to find help. So what if they have NO financial backing as of yet, but are still looking for help?

NOWHERE on the forum does it stipulate that a post MUST include payment, in fact, if I am not mistaken, the forum DOES say that professional studio jobs should not be posted in the help wanted forum, but in another forum geared more toward people looking for studio jobs, or I should say, people qualified for studio jobs. (I apologize if it is not Gamedev.net that has this policy, but if it is not I will do my best to locate the forum I am thinking of. Also, please note that this post is not meant to speak against Gamedev.net in any way.)

As far as the author thing goes, lets drop that one because I could debate that one with you all day long, after rethinking my words it was a foolish choice because all publsihers work differently. Your expereinces may have been entirely different than my own.)

[Edited by - JWollin on August 18, 2004 12:51:02 PM]

Quote:Original post by ApochPiQ[/i
So in summary, if you really are the victim of a mass of senseless ill will, you have my sympathy. If you're playing for support and agreement by only presenting your side of the issue, then you do not.

Again, just to note, I am not playing for sympathy for my own sake at all here. I can get by, my studio will survive the loss of a few green people, that is not my concern. My concern is MORE with the thousands of other people who post looking for help, many of which WILL fail. However, I also believe that many of the ones that fail will fail largely due to a lack of support from the community and a lack of help in making their visions a tangible development.