Sign in to follow this  

The new MMORPG's. Possible or not possible?

This topic is 4845 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

Hello there, I'm new to this forum so don't kill me for doing something I wasn't supposed to do ;) MMORPG, massively multiplayer online roleplaying game. You should perhaps see the video clips of the Half-Life 2 engine before reading on. These clips can be found here: http://www.planethalflife.com/half-life2/videos/ With the majority of today's MMORPG's it is not possible to role play. I mean, seriously, they are all about doing the same stuff over and over again and maxing your characters level. The interaction in today's MMORPG's is a joke. It is dwarfed to some stiff typing and a few predefined scripted actions. To call these games MMOG's would be a much better definition. Since I'd like to see a real large scale role playing game I'd really like to see some dramatic changes in the way MMORPG's are created. I'm not talking a MMORPG that consists only of conversation/interaction here. I'm talking a nice mix of the adventuring/fighting and interaction. I have this idea of an MMORPG that I think would blow most peoples mind and I believe the hardware, connection speeds and the software for it exists today. But I'm not sure of it. What I like is to get some opinions if the following is possible. Or not possible... If possible, do you have any suggestions as to whom (a company like EA etc.) could and would undertake such an endeavor? And please, bear in mind, what I'd like is opinions if these features are possible or not possible. I do not want opinions about the features themselves, like: "Duuuuuh that live voice thing is just ST00PID no one would never ever have time to stand around having conversations in a MMORPG!!!!!!!!". Also, if you back up your statements with something (an article?) it would be great! Below I'm only presenting some of the features of the game concerning the limitations of today's technology. Here goes. 1. The "live voice" Interaction system. The live voice interaction system would add an enormous presence to the interactions in the game. This Interaction system would be somewhat similar to the one seen in Counter Strike or compared to some live chat program like TeamSpeak. Just more advanced. Yes, I'd like to see and hear the online players you meet in this game talk. Via a microphone and with a wee bit better sound quality than seen in Counter Strike for instance. What I'd also like to see is lip-sync. Like seen in Half-Life 2. Yes I grasp the difference between a FPS and a MMORPG and that we are talking enormous bandwidth here. But consider this: How about a way to really limit the area of people you are hearing? (the longer distance the lesser/lower voices) And depending on what "mode" you are in (travel mode, fighting mode, conversation mode) you would hear only a limited amount of people. Perhaps even some peer to peer standalone client could be used to lessen the burden on the servers? Then of course, this MMORPG shouldn't have thousands of players per server. More like a few hundred players. Add some pitch and other filters to the sound and even teens with their breaking voices could sound like a battle hardened dwarf. 2. The "body language/facial expression" interaction system After seeing and experiencing the capabilities of the Source engine (Half-Life 2) developed by Valve I was truly amazed at how easily one could create your own customized expression "scripts", then save them to a small amount of data, I thought "To have this in a MMORPG would be magnificent". I won't go into too much detail here but, these interactions could look something like this: When you want to engage in a serious conversation with someone, the "conversation mode" is activated. Here you have a whole lot of controls for expressing yourself with facial expressions, body language and gestures. All taken from your already defined "scripts" or maybe by some way to effect your avatars expressions directly. This data could be sent to the game server or perhaps by some peer to peer connection. The limitations I discussed in 1. could also be applied here. You would control the avatars expressions using both mouse and keyboard using this "conversation interface". This would become an art to master but easy to learn. The visual expressions combined with the live voice I know would add dimensions to MMORPG's that no one has ever seen before. This is the next era of MMORPG's I'm talking about here, yes. The question is, do we already have the possibility to create MMORPG's like this or does the bandwidth or hardware issue stop this from happening? Possible or not possible? Well, is this possible with today's technology you think? Wouldn't a 10mbit connection or less suffice for all this data to be sent? Am I totally wrong in thinking the technology AND the software, like the Half-Life 2 engine, already exists? Well I'm asking the experts here I hope so just go ahead and shoot! Just try avoid hitting me ;) Sincerely, Fredrik

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey,

In regards to your voice-over-IP suggestion, UT2004 already has this built in as well and doesn't seem to affect bandwidth at all. A server with 20 players all blasting the hell outta eachother can still talk while they're at it without any noticable fluctuations in ping times.

I'm sure in the case of a MMORPG this could possibly become more of an issue, particularly if hundreds of people are all standing in the same area and decide to all talk at once. Even with your proximity suggestion it could still happen (guild meetings, etc). which may cause a few issues here and there. As far as the seperate application goes, I wouldn't recommend this approach as it just forces the user to keep track of one more thing on startup, instead, maybe create a seperate socket for voice-over-ip only which could be connected to a "voice chat" server to take the load off. Most MMORPGs as far as I understand it have seperate servers for the following:

Login server
Zone server
Chat server

For every zone server there will also be a chat server which will handle all incoming messages for that entire zone. This might also be an option with what you're suggesting to take a load off the gameplay server.

As far as custom scripts and facial animations go, this shouldn't be too huge of a problem because it's the client that handles this operation not the server. Once the server has transmitted the data (much like HL transmitting arm patches) it's done with it. There should probably be some sort of cap on the size of the script allowed, not to mention a cleanup utility to get rid of them if you don't run into character x in y number of days, otherwise the user's PC would become so flooded with crap it would get out of hand. The same goes for lip synching, once the client receives the voice message, it will simply update the mesh's model based on what it knows about words and syllables, the server really wouldn't have to worry so much about this aspect.

Permafried-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
I don't think it's a question of bandwidth but of server load. If you're going to have the audio based on how far away each person is, you'll have to mix a seperate audio channel for each player on the server. That's going to end up being a LOT of server load, even with a dedicated server.

The facial expressions however would work fine. Either by keyframing the faces or even having downloadable expression templates (eg: For a smile, move corners of mouth out and up)

-overflowed (I'm at work and forgot my pass)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When i played my last MMORPG (lineage2) i got together with a group of friends and we all used ventrilo and lot of other guilds out there use this too. This may be a temporary solution to your problem. And the best part about vent is that NCSoft didn’t have to spend a bunch of money setting up servers (which would have went down a number of times) and writing the code to support it.

It won’t solve the lip sync problem but it really helps out with coordinating attacks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by Fredrik Jahnsson
Quote:
Original post by hplus0603
As far as MMOGs go, the virtual world "There" already has both of those features (real-time voice with lip sync and attenuation, and body language / conversation modes): There Website.


Thanks! I'll go check it out right away.


I did try it out and was stunned to find out that the only important feature of this otherwise quite common MMOG, the live voice bit, had been left out from the demo!
So I had no chance of experiencing it. hplus0603, have you tried it? Was the voices inregrated 3d voices in the game? Or were they rather like some utility such as Ventrilo, which from the game idea I have, would be useless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by Megahertz
Vanguard (http://www.vanguardsoh.com) will have in game voice chat from what I've read.

-=[ Megahertz ]=-


Unfortunately this game's voice chat seems to be very similar to Ventrilo, which I mentioned above, just isn't good enough.
Thanks anyway!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Was the voices inregrated 3d voices in the game?


I guess that's how they get you to pay ;-)

Yes, There voice chat is integrated such that it uses 3D localization to position avatar chat, and attennuates chat from avatars further away. It also drives the lip sync and, to a limited extent, the gesticulation of the avatar.

I believe it works by sending you the voice streams for all avatars that you can hear at least a little bit of, and then telling your client where they are, and the client figures out the 3D stuff and how soft to make the sound. Thus, the servers shouldn't need to process the sound at all, except by passing it on to people within earshot when you speak.

Now, if there were only a GAME there, too, it'd be perfect!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hehe, yes, the dirty little b*******

Sounds very interesting, I'd love to see it in action. Hovever, I'm not going to pay for a MMOG based primarily on chatting ;)

I agree it would be very very nice.
I mean, if these guys, the "There inc." have managed to pull this interaction bit of theirs of so "easily" it makes you wonder why it isn't used more in MMORPG's. It must be that the larger companies are afraid of implementing these new features in their MMORPG's since they believe it would scare off many costumers.

/Fred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
AFAIK HL2 (or the Source engine rather) will have ingame voice chat where the players voice is treated as a normal sound, so if somone says "hello" only the people near that player will hear it. Not only that, but the sound will be changed depending on the sound environment in the same way gunfire or footsteps would.

In the Source engine things like lip sync can be done in real time using just the sound file to create facial movements. The player could also choose which facial expression they want to relate there mood to the other players. As for body language, that could be represented using predefiend gestures in the same way tribes 2 and UT did.

It all seems perfectly possible to me as long as the game focuses around small groups of players. Infact I'm pretty sure it could be done in a HL2 TC.

Sorry if I'm just repeating what other people have already said.

-MrChimp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You don't have to be sorry -MrChimp. Thanks for some new intel about HL2 that I didn't know about!
I guess I'll have to do a bit further reading on the HL2 engine.

Could the HL2 Source engine, or some modified version of it, be used for a smaller MMORPG? Lets say, a few hundred players/server? Maybe some people have already thought about this and are making plans for a new MMORPG?

Does anyone know?

/Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
I don't think it's a question of bandwidth but of server load. If you're going to have the audio based on how far away each person is, you'll have to mix a seperate audio channel for each player on the server. That's going to end up being a LOT of server load, even with a dedicated server.

-overflowed (I'm at work and forgot my pass)


This isn't the truth is it? Wouldn't the mixing of audio channels and all the rest concerning CPU load be handled on the client? The server/s responsibility for the audio would only be recieving and sending data wouldn't it? (or maybe this could be handled via peer to peer connections?)

/Fred.

[Edited by - Fredrik Jahnsson on August 22, 2004 9:41:23 AM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Quote:
Original post by Fredrik Jahnsson
I mean, if these guys, the "There inc." have managed to pull this interaction bit of theirs of so "easily" it makes you wonder why it isn't used more in MMORPG's. It must be that the larger companies are afraid of implementing these new features in their MMORPG's since they believe it would scare off many costumers.

/Fred.


Oh, come on! The reason it's not on most MMORPG's is because it's boring and a waste of money compared to what ELSE they could spend their development time on. Look at how much money an MMOG costs to develop without this feature, and the problems of justifying that expenditure, then try and work out how any producer is going to manage to squeeze an extra million dollars to implement this.

There are also some major reasons why this whole concept sucks on the gameplay side, e.g. internationalization: most games have people playing together who speak different languages, and with text it is not only easier to understand what people are saying (learn a few words in the other person's language - they type it once, you now know it; if you try and learn it from their pronunciation alone, it will typically take you a much longer time to get perfect), but many online games also do automatic linguistic translation. I.e. they run something equivalent to babelfish against the chat text; obviously they don't spend enough money to make it able to cope with slang etc, but it's enough to play with people whose language you don't speak at all - it's very easy for a machine to translate the core words in a chat message.

Another problem is censorship (swear words), illegal abuse (incitement to racial hatred), etc. These can be policed largely automaticaly with perhaps a 90% success rate with text; with speech, they are unpolicable. Such a pity, then, that in most countries local laws prohibit the extremes of free speech (and not just the extremes: c.f. libel). How much cash can you set aside to deal with the court cases?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Which of course doesn't mean you CAN'T do it. That game in europe a few years ago that had it's own currency went ahead despite the fact that it was never going to be *allowed* to run by the authorities in the long run (they threatened to shut it down because of the extent to which it was being used for money laundering), and fairly soon died IIRC. The idea was fine, but to think they could just do their idea without thinking about the consequences was stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote:

Oh, come on! The reason it's not on most MMORPG's is because it's boring and a waste of money compared to what ELSE they could spend their development time on. Look at how much money an MMOG costs to develop without this feature, and the problems of justifying that expenditure, then try and work out how any producer is going to manage to squeeze an extra million dollars to implement this.

There are also some major reasons why this whole concept sucks on the gameplay side, e.g. internationalization: most games have people playing together who speak different languages, and with text it is not only easier to understand what people are saying (learn a few words in the other person's language - they type it once, you now know it; if you try and learn it from their pronunciation alone, it will typically take you a much longer time to get perfect), but many online games also do automatic linguistic translation. I.e. they run something equivalent to babelfish against the chat text; obviously they don't spend enough money to make it able to cope with slang etc, but it's enough to play with people whose language you don't speak at all - it's very easy for a machine to translate the core words in a chat message.

Another problem is censorship (swear words), illegal abuse (incitement to racial hatred), etc. These can be policed largely automaticaly with perhaps a 90% success rate with text; with speech, they are unpolicable. Such a pity, then, that in most countries local laws prohibit the extremes of free speech (and not just the extremes: c.f. libel). How much cash can you set aside to deal with the court cases?



Ok, some people find it boring socializing with other people. I agree, these people wouldn't find this kind of MMORPG very amusing no.
Can you back up those claims you make that it would take "an extra million dollars to implement this"? Can you also refer to some article that treats immersion of games and in what way adding more realism to them make them worse?

You mentioned internationalization. Yes, wouldn't it all just be great if we all looked the same, had the same values and spoke the same language. The world would just be a such a fantastic and foremost INTERESTING place! (irony).
I'm firm in my belief that adding a little spice to the live voice chat like internationalization, if imbedded correctly into the game (yes I have a few ideas as to how), would further enhance the immersion you would experience in the game.

Of course the censorship would have to be dealt with and I'm sure there are plenty of ways to do just that with even the live voice system, any suggestions?
For example, one way of dealing with censorship could be with a player-admin reporting system or some new form of ingame game masters (admins/DM's).

Read this post before we delv any further in discussing the specifics of this game idea I have since the game idea I have would be somewhat similar to it:

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=97047

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Quote:
Original post by Fredrik Jahnsson
You don't have to be sorry -MrChimp. Thanks for some new intel about HL2 that I didn't know about!
I guess I'll have to do a bit further reading on the HL2 engine.

Could the HL2 Source engine, or some modified version of it, be used for a smaller MMORPG? Lets say, a few hundred players/server? Maybe some people have already thought about this and are making plans for a new MMORPG?

Does anyone know?

/Fred


I'll take an educated guess and say yes to both questions. Source has a player limit of 200 something players per server and apparantly you can daisy chain servers together. Although I have no idea how that works.

Here's a link to Valve licensing page: http://www.valvesoftware.com/sourcelicense/enginefeatures.htm and a article which I wrote about the source engine: http://www.hl2fallout.com/articles/index.php?lang=1&skin=1&CODE=02&id=14

My article isn't really aimed at devs, but you should find some of it usefull.... hhmmmm I really should sign up :)

-MrChimp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
NB: when you read this, bear in mind that I do not have anything *against* your idea. I would certainly try out an MMORPG using a similar scheme because I have faith it could make for an interesting game.

All the negativity below is simply the collision of reality with your idea, an attempt to show how many problems there are and how big they are. But overall the summary is in the first few lines: this feature is not worth it because for the same cost you could implement several other features that are believed by MMORPG designers to bring greater benefits. That's life in a capitalist world, I guess.

Quote:
Original post by Fredrik Jahnsson
Ok, some people find it boring socializing with other people. I agree, these people wouldn't find this kind of MMORPG very amusing no.


That's not my point; my point is that the vast majority finds it boring compared to what *else* the game could contain. If your primary enjoyment is voice chat then you (statistically) won't be playing an MMOG, you'll be using a largescale voicechat system (of which there are thousands).

Players seem mostly unaware that the list of features that the game developers wanted to include in their MMOG is as long - or longer - than those they ended up including, due to the realities of financing, timescale, and sheer exhaustion.

Quote:

Can you back up those claims you make that it would take "an extra million dollars to implement this"? Can you also refer to some article that treats immersion of games and in what way adding more realism to them make them worse?


I'm not going to refer you to an article; if you really care to know the answer, I'm going to point you at 7 years of archives of a mailing list devoted to the subject. Google for "MUD-DEV" and then read the online archives (actually, google indexes the archives too, so you can even hunt for specific topics, but you'll really be wanting the background information that answers your question, which you can't search for direclty).

The million dollars is a rough estimate based upon my own experience as a game producer, and before that working outside the game industry as a project manager. Total cost to add and effectively integrate and embed a feature like this with such expensive problems is huge. Forget the development cost - that's nothing. You have to take the huge costs of the problems I've already cited, and then add the costs of:
- testing the feature on all possible PC's (hardware incompatiblity is hell)
- training all your support staff on it
- probably redesigning your server all the way down to the core to work well with radically different traffic patterns
- huge amounts of stress testing cost (have to hire hundreds of people because where text can be tested by computer, voice has to be tested by man)

... and that's just the basics. You'll probably find the game suddenly needs a LOT more voice dialog from in-game NPC's because now any text looks stupid next to integrated voice chat. And so it balloons. One million dollars extra is, IMHO, a very optimistic costing; I probably wouldn't accept it on my plan unless I was guaranteed an extra 2.5 million extra budget just for this one feature.

Quote:

You mentioned internationalization. Yes, wouldn't it all just be great if we all looked the same, had the same values and spoke


! You haven't even thought for one minute about what I said. Your reaction is childish and reactionary. What I said has nothing whatsoever to do with de-individualisation. If you thought about it, and had any real understand of socializing in games, you'd appreciate some of the myriad barriers that you propose to put in place that would destroy any modern MMORPG (since all rely on socialization to make a lot of their money).

The main issue here is that players need to communicate, and what you propose drastically reduces the amount of communication that is possible. Who the heck do you think you are playing with when you logon at 3am local time? Or at 10:30am? Statistically, for a popular game, it is mainly not people on the same continent as you...even when your language is english it doesn't mean they can speak it.

And we haven't even got into any of the issues of lack of privacy that your idea brings. For most people it will not work without extensive voice obfuscation (which, IIRC, is easy enough to integrate at the same time - but that's an example of the extra cans of worms you open up: in order to make integrated voice chat work, you need to add integrated voice obfuscation, which is perfectly doable (and done by some mainstream games already), but just extra work). Just think of all the women who play as men because they get peace and quiet and don't get chatted up all the time. And all the men who play as women because they're suddenly more popular than they've ever been in their life, and no-one beats up on them when they suck (these are not my opinions: read the research papers of people like Nick Yee, Ed Castranova, etc. Some of them cover the extensive volume of trans-gender play and people's reasons)


Quote:

would further enhance the immersion you would experience in the game.


No successful MMORPG is making it's money out of immersion at the moment, so your idea doesn't sound particularly appealing to anyone with a commercial bent. In fact, there are strong signs that immersion is a good way of driving away paying customers. The reasons for this are currently reasonably long and complicated (i.e. because they are not yet fully understood they mainly consist of observations which have not yet been unified into simple laws) so I'm not going to try and go into them here. Suffice it to say that MUD-DEV has much discussion of such things.

Quote:

For example, one way of dealing with censorship could be with a player-admin reporting system or some new form of ingame game masters (admins/DM's).


No way. I assure you that if a producer / lead designer ever gets a budget for more DM's, those people will not be *allowed* to spend their time on in-game voice censorship: there are many things that are much much more valuable for them to be doing at the moment and aren't done simply because of the vast cost of actually training and retaining these people. There have been many attempts to find ways of affording the cost of more DM's - and this is one way of looking at NWN: it's fundamental game design was a way of getting just that.

I glanced at the thread you pointed to, but to be honest I've heard similar stuff a thousand times from people who are just thinking about it off the tops of their heads without reading the prior art and without examining the studies and academic research, and no matter how smart or brilliant they are on the whole it tends to repeat the same intelligent-yet-outdated concepts and you lose the will to read any more of them: 99% of the people involved won't get off their backsides and invest the time to research the subject properly, and instead want the 1% who do (or already have) to spell it all out for them, and like most of that 1% I simply don't have the time to get involved in that kind of discourse :(. The 99% perspiration / 1% inspiration split has been remarked upon more than once (and for several different aims, all variants on "success" or "achievement"), yet threads like that one just charge ahead with the same misconception that having had some inspiration you can get actually hope to get somewhere with just some open debate without doing the perspiration.

redmilamber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I deleted a double-post by Anonymous.

For the record: I work for Forterra Systems. Not being a financial guy, I belive we spent significantly less than a million bucks to develop our voice feature, including training CS and testing hardware compatibility as well as stress testing (which can be done by machines just fine, AP!). However, we already had avatars and a real-time data streaming system in place -- each of which cost more than a million to develop.

Also note that the Forterra platform is based on real-time, distributed simulation (with physics), rather than most MMORPGs, which are more like a MUD, so a traditional RPG might have a significantly harder time integrating a real-time technology like voice.

It also helped us that we don't have any NPCs ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Quote:
Original post by hplus0603
I deleted a double-post by Anonymous.


Thanks. Accident of over-sensitive clicking finger ;).

Quote:

However, we already had avatars and a real-time data streaming system in place -- each of which cost more than a million to develop.

Also note that the Forterra platform is based on real-time, distributed simulation (with physics), rather than most MMORPGs, which are more like a MUD, so a traditional RPG might have a significantly harder time integrating a real-time technology like voice.

It also helped us that we don't have any NPCs ;-)


Even MMORPG's with no association with MUD backgrounds rarely much in the way of real-time data streaming. That's a specialist area with plenty of prior art, and if you know what you're looking for there's no reason why a game studio couldn't - from a position of zero expertise in that field - create a decent framework from scratch. But, as you said, it costs. Mostly time and developer salaries. And in a game studio, there's an awful lot of valuable features (and improvement of the existing code and data!) competing for that precious developer-time...

PS Are you using one of the HLA derivatives?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We've looked at HLA, and I believe it's not quite a comparable technology in either networking or physics simulation support (well, it doesn't have any to speak of, really ;-). You could conceivably use it as a transport for your own messaging within the server cluster, in real-time mode only, but that's pretty weak.

However, our platfor can happily look like a federate to co-simulate with existing HLA systems, with a little bit of glue. Of course, you won't get the full benefit of our co-simulation technology if you do, but, hey.

Things like issued message handles that you can retract, and that the RTI is supposed to make it all go away, doesn't gel well with my idea of high-performance, real-time, interactive, distributed simulation. The HLA also seems to force threading upon the platform, which means that every federate needs to deal with thread safety, which adds a tremendous amount of needless locking.

And then there's those users on dial-up -- we have significant technology that allows the dial-up experience to be surprisingly good. I believe there's a patent on some of it issued -- search for "Ken Duda" (the CTO) and something like "Distributed Physics" to find it. HLA... didn't make that a design goal :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to agree with Anonymous Poster, the implications of the voice system far outweight the benefits. And plus I thought that Fredrik Jahnsson said that he wanted to improve the MMORPG genre? Why is voice communication so important. Surely if you just added those two features alone, it would still be the same "boring" game, but with lip sync and 3D positional voice chat. Surely there are far more interesting game facets that could be improved or invented to improve game play. If chatting is your thing, maybe you should invent a virtual chat room, with lip sync etc.

I think it's a blessing when voice is not supported in some games. There are many people out there looking to destroy the gaming environment for other people and voice is one way of doing that. It's bad enough that people have to implement all these anti-cheat programs (like punkbuster etc.)

I think typing for MMORPGs is classic and it maintains the role playing element. I would rather imagine that a dwarf speaking to me, has a deep voice when I read his text than hear his little squeeky voice. And as was already mentioned, the factor of harassment is HUGE, once players catch on that someone is female, she will encounter sexual harassment, no doubt! There are many desperate gamers out there! <-Sorry don't have an article for that one. :P

If ya got something important to say, or worth reading,
TYPE IT! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic is 4845 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this