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MMO Casino!

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Hi Folks, Although I post often in the writing forum, this is my first in the game design forum, so YAAYY for me! I was wondering if anyone had some input to add here, Id like some feedback on what you designers think. I was thinking the other day of a great project to start. Personally, Id like to see it a free service on a console machine, but these are decisions to be made at a later time. For the MMORPG, its really just a casino. One, big, every game encompassing casino, making it an MMORPG in that many people are in the same casino at the same time, playing the some games, etc. Instead of gambling with real money, theres a point system that mimics your monetary value- as I believe the legal hassels for real money are unavoidable. Other than that, thats all that would make it an MMORPG.. There arent stats or levels, just playing your everday casino games. The best part is in the customization. Much like Need For Speed Underground, I would want the customization for your character to be as near unlimited as possible. Players would spend their money won from the casino on different attire for their character to wear. From cheap to expensive, players could customize their outfit ranging from wife beater tank tops, to pimp suit outfits, to the most expensive of clothing. Players could buy themselves drinks, again ranging in price, where some would carry a generic beer can, while others are constantly sipping on the most expensive of drinks out of that fanciest of glasses. Players could pay for male/female escorts to accompany them for the night, then go sit at a texas holdem table, where their opponents are going to know they just spent $1000 just to have an NPC follow them around. From judging the exterior of opponents, players could be able to tell with some certainty exactly how much their opponents are playing. Sit down with a table full of high rollers wearing a pair of shorts and a tourist type hawaiian shirt, and youll most likely be the laughing stock of the table. Id like to also include the ability to own a car. Although, I dont like the idea of giving a player the ability to drive themselves (in fear of turning the driving expierience into a GTA type escapade) I forsee players owning cars, and when choosing to leave the current casino in their vehicle, it would be an computer controlled car trip, where players, who are less fortunate and walking, will see the players name above the car and establish, if you will, a presence of authority. There are some more details that I wish to flesh out before posting, but if you have any feedback, Id love to hear it. Thanks in advance. EDIT: Changes the title [Edited by - Nahoopii on August 25, 2004 5:42:26 PM]

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Quote:
Sit down with a table full of high rollers wearing a pair of shorts and a tourist type hawaiian shirt, and youll most likely be the laughing stock of the table.

That'd be me ;)

What's your thinking behind putting it on a console? Are you solidly behind that? I don't think I've seen many casino games on consoles, as (in my opinion) they are better suited for mice. Well, I guess you can get USB mice for PS2 and I'm sure XBox has an equivalent.

Another cool thing you may think about adding is being "staff" in the casino. I've personally always wanted to be a Blackjack dealer. Or something. You could give people jobs in the casino, either as a full-time job or as punishment for running out of funds. IE:

Me: "I'm all in boys!"
Comp: "Then I guess you're all out."
*Comp lays down royal flush.
Me: "Dammit. Now what do I do?"
Security: "Start scrubbing dishes..."

This could add an *interesting* incentive not to be a table troll(?) and, for those of us who enjoy but are not necessarily good at casino games, a chance to score some money (as opposed to losing it all).

But it sounds like a great idea! You definitely have at least one subscriber!

EDIT: Oh - and you may want to change the title of the thread to: "Casino MMORPG"

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Already good feedback, I couldnt be more pleased. Its not something I been working years on, just.. the best, most applicable idea in recent memory.

I say console, based on just one fact. When Vegas Stakes came out on the SNES, it was a big hit, and was only various casino games. There is a great lack of card/casino games available on consoles, probably for obvious reasons. I forsee it as a console game, solely for lack of competition. Anyone can turn on the internet, and play hearts/holdem/stud on the internet, but how many people do it on their couch?

Also note, I said free... I dont see this as a "game" in all honesty. But put it like this:

Poke has always been HUGE. Mainstream poker is only recently getting bigger. The TV tournament, the almost-instant fluxuation of poker clothing (shirts with cards on them, etc.) I was just trying to capitolize on this recent jump of interest before someone else did.. (posting on the internet.. not the best of ways!)

As for working, I LOVE the idea, but I dont see to many players opting to earn cash on tips rather than use the free points/money to play. I was trying to decide a balance mechanism. I DONT want to limit the players on how much they play depending on their win/loss ratio. I was thinking maybe a monthly income/allowance, however if only you knew how many times Ive sat at a table and gone all in and loss..it wouldnt be fair to make players wait weeks and days before they can play again.

I would need a system of balancing how much a player has to play with, and if they lose it, whats the penalty? A job, as you mentioned, was my next idea, however I dont want to take time away from the player if all they want to do is sit and play cards.. after all, thats what the game is for. I can only say that I would need a scoring system, where players are given a rated score depending on their playing expierience, and keep the score seperate from their money allowance. Anyways, all extra stuff that hasnt been fleshed out..Thanks MUSHU!

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Since all casino's have the odds stacked towards them, the players are rapidly going to run out of money (especially if you expect them to get out of that Hawaiian shirt). How are you going to combat this?

I see several options:
Change the odds to be in favor of the players.
Adv- relatively little programming
Dis- changes nature of the games you want to emulate. Also, it will be difficult to make changes in game in order to balance the economy.

Create jobs.
Adv- steady source of income
dis- who want to play a game to work? Unless these jobs are CEO's then the income will be relatively small

Computer players with lots of money that lose.
adv- looks more natural this way. Much easier to regulate the money available. Makes your casino seem fuller.
dis- bots will require more programming. People may pick up on thefact that the bots lose lots of money and may grief or scam the bots. wont work on all games (such as slots)


I think the bots is the best single option, but it would probably work well with the jobs. Changing the game mechanics is not something I would recommend. Players in a casino expect Casino games, not modified versions.

Could you also change the title to "Casino MMO"? I nearly skipped it because of the title when its actually a good idea.

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Im %100 against changing the game mechanics. Thats just not an option, for the same reason you mentioned. Thanks for the ideas, bots who lose money would make a good balancing mechanism. Ill put forth serious thought into how I would want that to work, should that be the chosen road.

In your opinion Thermodynamics, or anyone for that matter, what do you think of an overall scoring system? Player who run out of money would get an infinite amount of loans from the bank, making it impossible to not have the ability to play. In this aspect, I would not be trying to emulate real life in that we all have the restrictions of how much we have to spend, only emulating the play of the casino games. Since I want to capture the atmosphere of playing the games and competing with other people and against the casino, running out of money and losing the ability to play is of top concern. If a player has a loan out, then we would restrict what that player can buy. No new clothes, no cars, no drinks, just rounding with their dollars and trying to make a profit.

Then theres the concern of having too much loaned out on their name, to the point where players would never get back to sqaure one. In these cases, a quick solution for us designers, would be to give them the option to declare bankrupcy, and owe $0, while losing anything they have purchased in the meantime. Bankrupcy would siginicantly take a hit to the players overall score.

And lastly, with this score, the better the score, the different casinos available. Some casinos will only be available to the players with the best of scores, while low scoring players will remain in the original options of casinos. In that, high roller good scoring players have that option to only play against other "like minded" players, and still can go to the more populated low scoring servers, while low scoring players will have something to work for..

(please remember, theres an ungodly amount of balancing with the above ideas, as they are all unworked, unfinished, possible solutions to the most obvious of problems for a MMO Casino type game)


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To me, you already created a scoring system with the options to buy clothes and everything else. The scoring system on top of that would be either ignored or... I don't know. Maybe it would work. I don't like a scoring system on first blush, but then again I am just one person, and I may change my mind.

Btw - Nice title :)

I think I would enjoy the anoniminity(sp?) of not having a scoring system. That way I could sit down at a high rollers table in my flip-flops and shorts (no shirt) and proceed to bet large sums, just to throw my opponents off.

But, hey! Its not my game.

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Im not asking you to solve the problems in my game.. just mearly asking for an opinion from a large audience that you are a part of, whos opinion I value very much.. Thanks very much.

I dont want to alienate players with multiple scoring systems. It would be interesting to see what others would say. Maybe a second scoring system is too much.. But money is both what players spend on clothes to assert themsleves, and whats used to play the games and spark the heart of the gameplay. Being the perfectionist Id like to someday be :), its a touchy subject that I will take serious time and effort perfecting.

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What this game sounds like www.gaiaonline.com, whenever the promised beta will come out. Their pending casino addition will be less realistic and instead of Hawaiian shirts, it's flame pants, but basically everything you've described has a counterpart on gaia.

IMHO, having player dealers is a bad idea, since they're easily bribed and most casino games; the dealer has a very robotic job.

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Personally, I think since everyone (theoretically) will start out with the same thing, how much money they have accumulated will reflect their skill as a player. Thus, an additional scoring system is not a necessity, IMHO.

People that succeed, have more money, and get cooler stuff. People that don't, just don't. No second scoring needed.

And, yeah, on second thought, player dealers would be a bad idea, wouldn't they. Unless they didn't know they were dealers! Ah! :P

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My biggest issue at this point then, is combating the downside of players losing all their money, and not being able to play any of the casino games.

If I allow for players to take loans from the bank, what are some suggestions that you may have in order to ensure that the playability doesnt stop, however control the idea of players having infinite amounts of money.

Is locking what they can purchase when they have a loan out on their name sufficient? In this way, players would always be able to play, but if they owe money they cant change their exterior or customize their appereance whatsoever.. I guess Im trying to develop a penalty for having losing all their money without penalizing their ability to play the games..

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have you considered simply resetting their player? including any stuff theyve bought, etc.. adding a counter in a player profile screen or something that shows how many times theyve lost it all could be incentive enough to not suck.. i suppose how well this would work would depend largely on how much you give players to start.. if its too much, they have little reason to play carefully, if its too little, they cant do a whole lot..

also, if you insist on having a story based reason, they left and came back a month later ;p

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A few ideas:

Give the players their loans, but give them visual penalities for not paying up on time. Have loan sharks/thugs come in, grab them and strip them to their underwear as "payment", kick them out of the casino and send them back to the starting score. Maybe if they're in debt for a lot, have a literal "monkey on their back" who reaches out and snatches a percentage of all their winnings until they've paid back their loan.

Have other "loan" options, such as lottery tickets a player can purchase. Have a random bot high roller who, when he/she wins big, gives out cash to the people at his table. Maybe players can give out loans to other players, with specified interest rates/terms.

An idea from an old MUD I played; every player could automatically receive a daily/weekly "salary" or stipend. This way, whether they play or not they're receiving a small income - and an influx of cash. A player in debt could have a percentage of their stipend deducted automatically, helping pay it off.

[Edited by - EricTrickster on August 26, 2004 2:34:42 PM]

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Casino games are intentionally set up so that even with "perfect" strategy, the house still wins. Because of this, if you don't change game mechanics or add other games to tilt the balance to favor the player, pretty much everyone's going to be constantly in debt.

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You could have a few games in which it is easy to when money, with little to no risk of losing any. In fact, you may make it so you can win a little when you have no money whatsoever. Then keep track of the total "value" of the player. That is, the value of everything he owns plus his current money. If it is above some value he would not be allowed to take part in these games. If his winnings at this game push his value above the limit, he is told to go play at another table.

If the player's value is too high, but doesn't have enough money to play the "real" games, then he would have to start selling his belongings.

These games do not even have to be casino games, it is just a means for a player to go back and play the big games.

Anyways, its an idea. :)

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Great suggestions, thanks guys.

Quote:
Original post by DEbig3
have you considered simply resetting their player? including any stuff theyve bought, etc..


I like this. Off the top of my head, and addition. Players should have the ability to keep one item. After going bankrupt and have their in-game character start from scrath, players will keep that one item, however it will have a new patch/tear/hole.. some kind of visual representation that the item is getting old and needs to be replaced. In this way, I hope to keep players interested as they do have something to show for the time they have spent, however that item to the rest of the players will mean just that much less.. as all it will represent is at some time, the opponent HAD that item in mint condition, but has since seen some terrible days!

Quote:
Original post by EricTrickster
Maybe if they're in debt for a lot, have a literal "monkey on their back" who reaches out and snatches a percentage of all their winnings until they've paid back their loan.


This is the best idea yet..I love it.. Not only is it going to represent visually to other players where the "in-debt" player currently stands, its a constant reminder that forward progress is not going to happen with a monkey on your back taking your profits... Living proof why I love these message boards. Thanks for your time Eric.

I think I will use both. The player at any time could declare "Bunkrupcy", where their score (should their be one, im still leaning toward yes) would stay the same, but their debt will drop to $0. The player at which time would be able to choose 1 item within a preset price limit, the most expensive of items will not be savable. After choosing bankrupcy and choosing their 1 item, the item will become tarnished to a certain extent, and the player will again have the starting dollar amount.

On the other hand, players can choose to keep their current financial state, and opt to take a loan from the bank. The loan amount will dictate the aggresivness of the thugs and collectors, and if high enough, the player will have a permanent monkey on their back until they are no longer in debt. If players profit too much when a loan is out on their name, then the thugs will be very aggresive in obtaining their payment. Not physically agressive, at least, not in a gameplay aspect, but they will come and force the player to give a certain % of their cash on hand. (however there will obviously be physically abusive animations, just not in the gameplay aspect)

In this system, I believe a certain amount of balance between gameplay for the players, and a monetary balance in the casino all together. Does anyone have any comments, complaints, suggestions, or revisions to my above balance system? Im very confident that something like whats above would achieve what it is im trying to accomplish...

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I don't know if "balance" comes into play in a game like this, since all skill is player-based - not stat based.

I do agree with others that it would be better if the odds in the casinos were tilted towards the player, with the caveat that this tilt happen in the "beginner" casinos. "Let the wookie win." Give the player a sense of accomplishment, then make the odds harder as they move up the casino scale. Have the bot AI at the higher casinos have better skills to compete against the players.

A question: what is the "endgame"? There will come a point where you've gone on a hot streak, accumulated tons of "wealth" and gained entry to every casino? What then? What incentive is there for a high roller to keep playing past a certain amount?

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Quote:
Original post by EricTrickster
A question: what is the "endgame"? There will come a point where you've gone on a hot streak, accumulated tons of "wealth" and gained entry to every casino? What then? What incentive is there for a high roller to keep playing past a certain amount?

Well, since it is supposed to be an MMO, would there ever be an end game? I mean, you could just max out your character, but then discover new things are available to purchase (after Nahoopii realizes someone is richer than ever imagined) by adding more stuff.

You could also add more games with higher minimum bets... "I'll see your Canada and raise you Mexico!!"

And then you can always have muggers running amuk looking for the poor rich guy (no, pun intended) who happens to have no bodyguards... mwahaha

But hopefully no one will get rich quick at the tables...

EDIT: How about giving them a message which says "How sad - you beat a Casino MMO. Now why don't you go to Vegas and have some *real* fun??" :P

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I'd say that the game has to be capable of expanding continually. As players get richer and richer, they're going to run out of stuff that's worth their while to do.

Having new, exciting things to buy is great, but once you reach a certain point, people just aren't really going to bother. Why make your way up to $100,000,000 just to buy some super-awesome-amazing piece of clothing that costs $99,000,000? After a certain point, people just aren't going to want to part with that many points just to get some clothing upgrade.

It'd take a while to create, but I propose (bear with me, I'd consider this a fantasy setting so it could make sense) having it so that once a player reaches some insane quantity of money, they are able to buy a spaceship flight to Mars or somewhere else completely different from Earth and play in their casinos.

The incentive would lie in that on Mars, they've deemed our games silly and our currency nearly worthless. So, while you might have $500,000 left after paying for your trip, that'd be worth almost nothing on Mars and so it would be like you're starting all over again but with the same Earth status.

Then, if you've bought the trip once, you can shuttle back and forth between Mars and Earth for free (or a small fee).

On Mars, everything could be different. The casino design, the NPCs and so on would obviously be very different. But what would be great is if you made the merchandise very Mars-y and the casino games completely different. They could still be card-based or whatever (though to make some differently styled games would be cool), but they wouldn't be anything like any casino games we're used to. It'd take a lot of work and creativity to come up with all of that, but it'd make it worth it for players to keep going.

Of course, then you have the issue of players attaining extreme wealth on Mars. Depending on your level of dedication, you could keep releasing new planets with new everything as players attain the levels necessary to reach them. Then when you come back to Earth from Uranus wearing your 24 karat gold Klerpnax, all the NPC escorts would be chasing you down just to bask in your bling.

Oh, and you'd definitely have to add a restaurant area with some cheesy dinner theater and musical performances by washed up singers from the 70s and 80s [wink]. Especially Kenny Rogers [grin].

-Auron

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Example: DAOC. Once you max at level 50 there is still plenty for you, in PvP. Ranking systems, guild and individual, provide personal incentive to stay on top. Relic ownership affects your entire realm, giving further incentive to reach the higher levels and increase your standings. You acquire skills and items to be able to do more, to be stronger, better - and being better benefits your realm.

I can see a point where you can easily become bored as a gambler in a computer game. After a while it loses meaning because, to be blunt, winning has no meaning. Items don't mean anything except a certain visual status, and winnings just get you access to games with higher stakes and higher antes. You're playing with monopoly money, and with no end in sight you have to ask: what's the point of going on?

I'm just pointing out that there has to be some continuing challenge to this, or you'll have people dropping from boredom with the monotony.

Or be stuck with gambling addicts, trying to feed their addiction.

What benefits do having items convey? Because, I can tell you, it didn't take me long to figure out that I'd be better off saving all my cash rather than spending it on fluff. The items should mean more than status; perhaps you need better clothes to get access to private clubs (the velvet rope theory). Maybe there's a chance you'll get rolled by a carjacker, or a mugger. Or the mob, who think you're cheating. You need to spend money on bot bodyguards to protect you.

For the guys, there can be the requisite eye candy on the arm - but you need to keep her in diamonds and furs, or she'll leave you for another high roller. Give the women a boytoy version. If you don't keep him/her in enough stuff, maybe they'll rip you off and leave you penniless.

Hire an accountant to keep track of your money? He'll invest it for you in stocks...but choose wisely, or he'll skim a little off your profits here and there!

I guess I'm saying don't just limit the game to gambling in the casinos; add a "danger" element, based on the player's choices, to keep the game interesting and exciting. Make the items mean something and people will keep buying them - plus it gives you a cash sink, to keep money flowing rather than having people hoard cash.

Have leaderboards based on different games (public and private) and earnings. Have casino "champs" based on these values, giving people a certain notoreity - and increase certain "danger" levels for earning that reputation. Fame gets you into the better places, but it also increases your risk - which you can decrease by hiring people to protect you, and your money. Buy jewels to keep in a safe deposit box. Open overseas accounts. Have the player approached with "financial opportunities" as their wealth increases - some of which are legit, some may be money laundering schemes for the mob (with the Feds, and bankruptcy, soon to follow!)

THAT would be a more exciting game for me, and give me incentive to keep playing. The chance at a larger game beyond gambling, I think, has more long-term value.

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I cannot argue the monotony of games playing with monopoly money. I cannot argue that items of clothing are merely a royalty, and nothing more.

I can argue poker though. Gambling can be more than just casino games. Poker is different. You play against people. Its competitive, and its different on every hand, with every person you play. Poker does not have monotony. So in this light, Im not worried about monotony.

But casino games are VERY repetitive. So I can appreciate what you all have said in that aspect of the casino. In which case, I agree its thin ice Im treading on hoping that people could stay interested in going on.

But your cautions are also the bain of every MMO game, RPG or not. It just so happens, its much easier on a broader scope such as with an RPG, in comparison to a game the revolves around a casino.. Its back to the drawing board, next step: Keep the players HOOKED
(Mars is a great idea, new planets, new stuff, all the more attention back on Earth...awesome)

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Let's try a different tactic; here's a basic question to answer.

Why would make me want to pay a monthly fee for a casino MMO, over a "regular" casino computer game, other than interactivity? Because I can go to games.yahoo.com for that ;)

Traditional MMO's have a sort of dynamic world, where players have an affect on the world to varying degrees. What similar action would there be in a casino MMO?

Keep in mind, I do like the concept - I'm just playing devil's advocate.

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I can appreciate a devils advocate, all they do is get answers.

Quote:
Original post by Nahoopii
Personally, Id like to see it a free service on a console machine, but these are decisions to be made at a later time.


I say this, because exactly that. I wouldnt dream of charging people. Which is also why I see it as a console game. #1, because theres no yahoo.com for a PS2 and Xbox, etc. I know about pokerroom.com, and partypoker.com, and just about any card game you want to play at yahoo.com.. but can you play them on your couch? Can you watch the World Poker Tour in picture-in-picture while you play your own hand? :-) I really do see it as a free online game, just selling the software for the consoles.. Much like SOCOM in that playing online is free.. And while offline, players could play AI or have a tutorial type mode, where the game displays percentages before and after know the opponents hand, basically a training sim... Although, its much more expensive, but I think its managable to offer the servince free online..

I can just see the arguments bottleing up here.. Please, if you all will, refrain from argueing the service charges and such. Im not interested in argueing what can and cant be done on the subject..

..but if you must, you must..

So to your question though, whats to stop you from making a one time payment/purchase to play this type of game, in the comfort of your own couch.. Because I know the idea alone is enough to spark the interest, and the replayability is endless (assuming your NOT that guy with EVERYTHING the game has to offer and endless amounts of anything you want)..

And in the casino, I guess the catch is that players DONT have an influence on the world, but they DO have an influence on the other players in the world, mainly the ones accross the table. So to a certain degree, I think its 6 of one, and half a dozen of the other..

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Yo nahoopii. Sorry it took so long for me to check this out.

Behind the scenes he had the idea of having real casino's sponsor the game (keeping it free). Which would mean realistic models of the casino's, ability to advertise in the game background without pop-ups and other annoying crap you see on free computer games.

Multiple sponsors means multiple realistic casino's to further the attraction.

Rolling with this idea, it would be possible to say, "You can cash in $2 Billion (you know people will get that high), and trade it for a trip to the real casino, for a couple days.

And besides just having point games, have tournament games where players play for real prizes, a great benefit for people are skilled and/or get tired of playing for nicer accessories.

Another big idea (big) is all casinos have shows.... music, comedians, whatever. There is a plen-ty you can do with that.

And my last big idea, is a doozy. The ability to plot, coordinate, and deploy a group of people, and pull a heist. Actually accomplishing this would be nearly impossible. But the rewards would be huuuge. Everybody in rpg's do the same quest, usually multiple times. "Hey, nice sparkling gem, I have one too, and so do 600 more people on this server..." This is an oppurtunity to have characters truly stand out.

Other smaller ideas:

Bars/Lounges - people need a place to mingle.

Ability to pick-pocket - helps with extra cash, but don't get caught.... Maybe visually ejected from the casino and banned for a couple days?

Ability to attempt to steal chips from people/tables. - In vegas you'd get shot... but something cruel like that would be cool.

Ability for players to group up and open their own casino (the rich to ultra rich) - a la SimCasino? :)

People run out of money? Go to SiCC's Loan Shack... This way you can give people jobs... I (SiCC) loan Bob some money. Bob takes to long to pay me back.. I hire Nahoopii to go break his legs..... or collect. Nah. SiCC only breaks legs.... Things like this would give people another alternative to just gambling.

People buy cars? Let people open up a car dealership.
People buy clothers? Let people open up a store.

They buy from us (Nahoopii Technologies) and then set their own prices. Whatever.

Thats all I got for now.... Sorry for the long post.

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Ahh a little back up. Whats up buddy?! Im glad I could at least convince you.

Long term speaking, I plan to demo the software for some casinos and see what could happen. In the land of make believe, a demo would spark interest in the minds of some big shot Vegas CEOs for some financial and advertising opportunities.. Up for discussion if anyone has input?!

Its interesting to see that with only about 8 (rough count) people who have heard the idea, almost all have gone way beyond the realm of a casino, and went on to be bigger broader games. To expand like this I think would lose the interest of any casino to be in the project, which is almost what makes the dream a reality...

But that may be a worth it on a different level in the name of just making a better video game.

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