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d000hg

Ameteur artists and modelers

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In the programming side of things there are loads of programmers who make games as a hobby. Sometimes they group into teams to make a game, with no thought of any financial reward. They want to see if they can, they want the pride of other amateurs or they may want to show their work to get a job in the industry. What about artists - are they also happy to work just for the fun of it? Would an artist wanting to get into the games industry work for free on a game to convenience them and the programmers - the artist gets a game with their work and the programmer a game with half-decent art for a change?

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umn, yes ... so do i ;)

but there are ways much more hobby programmers around than hobby artists like me . take a look into the job listings : so much people are searching for aritsts ...

that was the reason why i once started my page with all my free graphics ...

And to prevent your further questions: nope, no sparetime left for requests . but the current stuff is completely free :P

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I've had a hard time finding artists, and appearantly there are highly prized relationships there. It's not like you run into the temperamental artist thing or something, but more like is the work they want to do the kind that will work for the types of games produced?

I've been working at pixel art, seemingly hightly prized, and after chipping away at the skill for almost three years now, have really only produced a couple of small things that I am happy with. Maybe this is just the writer-trying-to-be-an-artist thing too, but we'll see, art is relaxing.

I've also worked with interns in multimedia during the South of Market days in the dot com boom, and their work was highly software driven in animation, and the prep or final art, or just one great image or two was in the porfolio, of the 2-D fine line black and white line art that is the establishin image for the look of the finished composition(s).

I tell artists and other people all the time they could be making money around here and in industry general in small but significant chunks, but they don't seem to come pouring out of the woodwork.

If you look at the consumption side after output, either you are so good that you are working all the time for bigco, or, you are walking around with a portfolio trying to get in. If the Game Developer Showcase, the IDGA awards, other game competition awards sponsored by other game development entities as well as academic interests were sampled, you'd could say that the dev side of product output is either limited or slow, because managing amateur teams is so challenging.

Facility provided for virtual blackboarding and file transfer for projects requiring art assets were available, as well as the other assets involved, production would increase, and the opportunity for artists would as well.

I was raised by an artist, and I am used to seeing work really productively developed, and I used to wonder why game art was so sort of intangible as something to plug into a production idea of my own for games design even as I networked, until I began producing just small amounts of it for webs and tiny commercial animated banners. Good art is kind of really in short supply.

Adventuredesign

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It depends I guess.. if you just want to become "good" I would
guess it might be faster to learn game art/graphics. However,
if you want to become a really good artist or a programmer you
are looking at large amounts of work and time either way.
Quality work never comes cheap, that is what I've learned
anyway :P :)

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I am an artist... i know some programming fundamentals but im really a 3d artist overall..

The thing is that 3d art is just art using computer tools...
Natural artistic ability plays a part in being a 3d guy.. Form, Proportions..etc
You can be as inventive as you would in real life art once you get a foothold in using a good 3d application

The difference with programming is it takes a good time before you can be knowledgable enough to be truly inventive... You can get programmers who do stuff by the numbers (tutorials) , even though they are still fairly scarce...

As for finding hobbyist 3d guys.. im working for free myself at the mo on a fully fledged game.. hopefully it will turn out to be some good cv filler... so yes.. 3d artists are out there.. just hard to find em sometimes

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Quote:
Original post by sunandshadow
I think maybe it takes longer to become a programmer good enough to make games than it does to become an artist good enough to make games, what do you all think?


Hello,

I do not think there is a time problem.

Programming is just applying some logic, this is something that everybody can do. Of course, there are still some difference between Carmack and the average programmer. Everybody can learn programming (and there is no such things as game programming and non-game programming. It is programming. Believe me, I'm not a game programmer but I still have the same problems to solve).

Artist are artists. This is something you have in you. I'm unable to paint something, unable to model something good. I'm not an artist at all. I may learn during 2^32 years if I can, I'll never be an artist.

So, basically, it do not take more time to be a good programmer than to be a good artist : you can learn to program, but yo cannot learn to be an artist.

These were my own thoughts about this particular subject :)

Truly,

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Well my original post was written because I'm interested in finding some artists to work with me. I program for the game in my spare time and am keen to find an artist/modeler who will work for free. I wondered how many such people exist on this forum and a good way to 'pitch' the project other than just showing a demo?

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Quote:
So, basically, it do not take more time to be a good programmer than to be a good artist : you can learn to program, but yo cannot learn to be an artist.

These were my own thoughts about this particular subject :)


Sorry, i couldn't disagree more! Painting and drawing and modeling are skills just like programming. They can be learned just like programming. They exercise a different part of the brain, but as long as you actually have a brain you are capable of doing both.

Creativity on the other hand, is something i believe you either have or you don't. It should be noted, however, that programming involves a lot of creativity as well. People who do not program will never realize this, as i know it's often viewed as "robot work". Without a bit of creativity on your part, i think it would be hard to be a top-notch artist or programmer.

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Programming is a very concentrated field. If someone wants to be a programmer they follow a few well defined paths and fall into a few well defined categories. It's not a bad thing, it's just how it works out. If you say you want to be a game programmer no one asks "Well, what kind of game programmer?" because there really aren't that many different kinds to be (it's sorta a jack-of-all-trades profession).
So it feels like there's a lot of game programmers because a high percent of them wind up in places like this, as there isn't a lot of alternate places to go or things to do.

A hobbiest artist has many more options available to them. Art skills translate into countless different fields and industries. If someone wants to be a game artist they could do concept design, architectural layouts, character modelling, rigging, animating, skinning, environmental art, or special effects. All these hobbiest artists aren't hanging around in one place because they're too diversified for that. You get little pockets of them here and there, and it feels like there are too few of them to go around. In reality there is just too many different kinds of art for a lot of people to do each one.

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Well programmers can go to procedural, object orientated, functional, scripted languages for a start. They can work on low-level hardware stuff (drivers), mathematical systems (graphics, physics), complicated algorithms (AI) as well as game programming. It's hardly a narrow field.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
You know... it's been my experience that to actually be good at something... almost anything is difficult. Programming, artwork, music, sports, engineering, writing...

I wouldn't say that one was harder than the other. It's likely that we are each pre-diposed to being better at something though our individual talents. But to develop that natural talent into into being great at something? That takes a lot of effort.

Quote:
Original post by leiavoia
Quote:
So, basically, it do not take more time to be a good programmer than to be a good artist : you can learn to program, but yo cannot learn to be an artist.

These were my own thoughts about this particular subject :)


Sorry, i couldn't disagree more! Painting and drawing and modeling are skills just like programming. They can be learned just like programming. They exercise a different part of the brain, but as long as you actually have a brain you are capable of doing both.

Creativity on the other hand, is something i believe you either have or you don't. It should be noted, however, that programming involves a lot of creativity as well. People who do not program will never realize this, as i know it's often viewed as "robot work". Without a bit of creativity on your part, i think it would be hard to be a top-notch artist or programmer.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Yeah computer software is a really narrow field... I mean it's only used in everything....

Medical, finance, communication, transportation, biology, manufacturing, entertainment, music, art, agriculture, architecture, all of the sciences.

What you're missing is that the base technology of software is similar across most domains. However what used to be a skill unto itself and kindof morphed into a hybrid occupation. Where you have to understand technology *and* the problem domain you are working in.

For example... to write good market trading software you have to understand software and the markets...

To write good aircraft automation software you have to understand software and aeronautics...

To write a good automotive controller system you need to understand software, and physics, mechanics, combustion principals and some engineering.

Thats the thing I love so much about software. When I get tired of the problem domain I'm working in I work in another industry. So far I've covered nuclear fuel production, banking, finance, telcom and now I'm moving into medical...

It's a great field.



Quote:
Original post by LockePick
Programming is a very concentrated field. If someone wants to be a programmer they follow a few well defined paths and fall into a few well defined categories. It's not a bad thing, it's just how it works out. If you say you want to be a game programmer no one asks "Well, what kind of game programmer?" because there really aren't that many different kinds to be (it's sorta a jack-of-all-trades profession).
So it feels like there's a lot of game programmers because a high percent of them wind up in places like this, as there isn't a lot of alternate places to go or things to do.

.

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Quote:
It's hardly a narrow field.

It's not narrow, it's concentrated. A lot of programmers can do a lot of different types of programming tasks. Many amateur projects have a single coder who handles every aspect of the game. That's all you need on the programming side; one programmer who knows all the stuff. A lot of the time having multiple programmers isn't a matter of necessity, it's just a means of speeding up how much physical work can be pumped out.
Like the AP says, he did "nuclear fuel production, banking, finance, telcom and [is now going to do] into medical...". That's a lot of different fields for one guy to cover. He's not a medical programmer, he's a "programmer" that is currently doing medical things. Game programmers often do the same thing but within the gaming sector. One guy can do the physics, the AI, the scripting, etc.

There is no hard boundaries to programming, it's based off knowledge and logic, you just need to know the subject and the syntax. Any raw talent in programming can generally be applied no matter what sort of programming it is. You can sit down, read a physics book, and put those formulas into action. Then you can read about the processes involved with a neural network and implement them. Can I sit down, brush some strokes, and make a great painting? I have absolutely no talent with a brush and all the technical learning in the world isn't going to save me.

I admit programming is getting a lot more specialized than it used to be, but it's happenning at the professional level and this topic is referring to the amateur level. At the amateur level it takes one programmer to program a game, whereas artists tend to be specialized even when starting out. I do environmental art, and if I'm on a team project that's all I'm expected to do. A coder on an amateur project is expected to be able to do a greater variety of things if not everything and if he can't, he's expected to be able to learn it.

So when one programmer starts making a game, he looks for a group of artists. Hence why it feels like there are not enough of them.

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Funny you should post this as I am a 3d artist, and just started on the developmet side.
http://www.microcyb.com/?g=e&e=2
http://www.microcyb.com/?g=e&e=9

I can make all the fun 3D objects and have all those fun toys, but until just now have started to play with the coding aspect of it.

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Hi there. As being a hobby artist myself, I think I can tell you a few things which people on this forum simply seem to not know. Read on, you might just find this info helpful!

If you look at the general public, and imagine how many of all people enjoy to program games.
And then you imagine how many enjoys to draw.

How can it be that there is such a shortage for artists then??

Then realise that the people who like to draw, and those who like to program... they go to different places online.

You can simply google for some artists, even amateurs like myself somteimes happen have their own websites.
But if you want the easy road, there's a whole bunch of online artist communities around, just try to find an artist there.

Like most others, many artists enjoy online communities. Some of them are pro's, and want a thousand bucks for a canvas with some oil on it... others hardly have the dream to ever get to earn any money from something they draw.

Just like with game programmers, there are
pro's - dont want to have anything to do with anyone calling themselves amateurs.
wannabe's - tries to accomplish something which actually works.

And everyyyyyyything in between. Myself, I'm the sort that charges 40 bucks per portrait. However, that is not what I wrote this post for.
What I was going for... is:

GameDev.net = claim to have 200.000 frequent users - yeah, right!

ElfWood = 25.000 fantasy/sci-fi artists of all qualities mentioned above. (but they're not LIMITED to fantasy and such)

DeviantArt = Unknown number of artists, but most likely around 75-150.000. In all categories, including photographers, icon-makers and "Windows Skin"-makers.

Renderocity = 170.000 frequent artists (280.000 members) also a good community but I'm not familiar with it myself. Holds artists of any kind.

Epilogue.net = 2.500 EXTREMELY talented fantasy/sci-fi artists. You might wanna have money in your pockets before you check up on these.



I listed them in order of accessability, and likeliness of scoring. Only the huge "Renderocity" requires you to become a member to browse among the artists.

I think I might make this a new thread on this forum. Perhaps on the "Help Wanted" forum.
Hope this helped someone!
~NQ
[edit: fixed the links]

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Quote:
Original post by LockePick
So when one programmer starts making a game, he looks for a group of artists. Hence why it feels like there are not enough of them.


Yep. Especially if you think about the content side of today's game: it seems that it took more time to create Morrowind's world than to create the program itself. In the future, we'll continue to improve quality of immersion. The coder part will become harder (more math, more tricks and so on). But it will require a lot of artist work.

Quote:

Sorry, i couldn't disagree more! Painting and drawing and modeling are skills just like programming. They can be learned just like programming.


(I will expose here what I think about this subject. If you do not agree, please PM me - unless you think that it is relevant to the discussion, of course :) For now, I replied to the forum because I thought that this has something to do with the lack of artist and the increasing number of programmers. Of course, I may be wrong, and dOOOhg will just kill me for the thread hijack :/)

I used to speak with graphists, illustrators, comics makers, painters, photographs of all sorts (I love art, and there is a lot of art galleries where I live). I believe art is innate. It is a particular vision of a world. You cannot learn to see the world in a particular way, because you are limited by your own experience. I could try to draw men and women for years, I'll never be more than a monkey which actually reproduce something uninterressting, while an entry-level artist will draw an interresting character in a few minutes.

Cuting edge programming is still programming. Programming is somewhat accurately defined by "writing a sequence of instruction which is interpreted by the computer to apply a treatment on a set of informations" (that's why, here, in France, we call this "informatique", which is a contraction of "information" and "automatique" - the latter is the science field which deals with automatas). Most game programmers out there aren't doing anything else, leaving the Big Part to their lead programmer (which are as rare as lead artists in the industry). In fact, most programmers do the "writing a sequence of instruction" part, leaving the creation of the treatment to someone with better qualifications.

About creativity now : I think that programming has nothing to do with creativity. Creativity is used to create an algorithm - and an algorithm is a mathematic object, not a computer object. Of course, some programmers do create algorithms - I said some, not all. Again, AFAIK a lot of fellow programmers are only writing data flow, leaving the hard data treatment algorithm to a specialist. Creativity is also used to design a solution - but again, this is not the mid-level programmer's job.

Quote:

I wouldn't say that one was harder than the other. It's likely that we are each pre-diposed to being better at something though our individual talents. But to develop that natural talent into into being great at something? That takes a lot of effort.


This is true too :)

Have a good night,

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I've been drawing and stuff since I was in 5th grade, and I went through 4 years of magnet art school, so I may not be the most unbiased person on this subject. I feel that programming and art are more alike than people think.

It takes a good period of time to get into both before you can do anything worthwhile.

Game artists, as far as I can see, also need to be as much of a jack of all trades as programmers. Artists should know modelling, texturing, animating, UV mapping, rigging, etc. Just like a programmer can pick up a physics book to get that down if he isn't specialized in it, an artist can learn to animate. He may not be the best animator from the beginning, but being as he already has a good understanding of the software, it shouldn't be difficult to get reasonable results.

For programming you are organizing commands in such an order that it gets the computer to do what you want. For artists, you are organizing vertices, edges, texture, color, lighting and animation in such a way that it look pleasing and functional (and relevant to the title).

One thing I saw written was that game programmers are pretty concentrated in what they do and artists have many different fields. You are comparing apples to oranges. If you compare GAME programmers to GAME artists then it severely limits what is being done.

I haven't been to those sites, but I know the best game artist communities I've found are at www.polycount.com www.cgchat.com and www.cgtalk.com

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