Gravity As Gameplay

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29 comments, last by Wavinator 19 years, 7 months ago
Quote:You may be right. However, logically, there are some cases where I can see a common "long and flat" design being more practical:

1) The vehicle is designed to spend extended periods in a gravity well, such as hopping between cities, belly-landing to carry cargo or otherwise operating for extended periods aerodynamically in atmosphere

2) Load bearing may be easier with a vessel that's aligned on a column above the source of acceleration as opposed to arrayed around it. Think about it like picking a pancake up with a ball point pen versus the structure of the ball point pen itself. If you want a bigger ship and you expand outward, it's going to put more force against a smaller surface area of the ship. Also, th more massive the vessel, the more a tail landing scheme will cause similar problems, not to mention creating a towering structure that is vulnerable to wind.

3) Tactical vulnerability: When a ship accelerates toward or away from an aggressor, having a thin and long structure would be preferable to the wide structure, especially in terms of area of effect weapons.


Hmm, I think you've confused me. :)

The ship can be build however you want. Just turn the decks sideways so peoples feet point towards the rear of the craft and their heads point towards the front. In these ships, people don't fly "forwards" they always fly "up."

Inside the ship, they'd never know the difference because all the screens and displays would show whatever view they wanted.
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Quote:You may be right. However, logically, there are some cases where I can see a common "long and flat" design being more practical:

1) The vehicle is designed to spend extended periods in a gravity well, such as hopping between cities, belly-landing to carry cargo or otherwise operating for extended periods aerodynamically in atmosphere

...Also, th more massive the vessel, the more a tail landing scheme will cause similar problems, not to mention creating a towering structure that is vulnerable to wind.
slightly offtopic- I think that atmosperic landings would be prohibitted to some ships. They would only be able to dock to a space station and then have there cargo unloaded through space elevators (will there be any?) and/or specially designed surface to orbit dingys. I think the naval equivalent of weighing anchor away from land is a good analogy.
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Ah, yes. Now what Wavinator says makes more sense. I should have caught that.

No, it wouldn't do to have everyone trying to stand on a wall if the ship is meant to enter gravity wells and land on planets.

I think you either have to do as Thermodynamics says and use "ferryboats" or a space elevator as a go between *or* the ships have to have some kind of artificial gravity or be able to transform or change itself depending on the situation.

Ships that have rotating rings to provide a sort of artificial gravity aren't going to land. A lot of exotic ships aren't going to land.

Maybe the ship can be designed like one of those wierd paintings where any surface could be a wall, floor, or ceiling, depending on what was going on. Walking down the hall, you'd see doors positioned every which way - on the ceiling, upside down, on the floor....
Quote:Original post by Kars
Just a though, I remember seeing a movie quite a while agao (Abyss I think) where a divers suit was filled with a bretable liquid so the diver could withstand more presser and go deeper. Don't know the science behind it (if there actually was any), but if it is sound....


In Gerry Anderson's UFO, the aliens were green because they breathed an oxygenated liquid for interstellar flight, for the same reason. The liquid was green and it dyed their skin.

Yeah, you can breathe oxygenated liquid. Don't know how much it would protect you against pressures though (and does it really matter? ;) )

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Quote:Original post by Ubik
The gravity producing mechanism also offers a good chance for balancing. Gravity mechanism would produce a gravity field representing some mass (one earth for one G), or alternatively it could be something like ships mass * G. Bigger gravity requires more energy, so producing full gravity for a big ship would mean that there is not that much energy to absorb the inertia forces, making the big ships less maneuverable.


I think this could balance nicely for the player who is willing to do a little bit of optimizing for their ship. But rather than using a movement penalty, it may be enough to simply balance the power cost issue of running the gravity generators.

Quote:Original post by frostburn
If I remember correctly from other posts your're going to have a graphical representation of the ships and environment (was it 1st or 3rd person? doesn't matter). If things have to be designed so that everything can be used in zero g and during acceleration etc I'm afraid that the ships won't look anything like a combat vessel


This is a side issue that has arisen: Is it cool if form follows function, or should ships be created to look sexy? Part of this is in the hands of the players as they weld together lego-style pieces in building their ship. Part of it is determined by the ruleset that makes one design better than another. I'm not sure having a flying amalgam of blocks and beveled edges is all that bad, as opposed to a sleek, sexy look (Babylon 5 versus Star Trek ships).

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ID and AG may produce energy signatures that's detectable by other ships. A sound tactic in stealth missions can be to turn off the devices. Ships designed to be very stealthy could be made completely without these devices.


Cool idea. Yes, it would enhance stealth.

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Let all ships have intertial dampening and AG, but give it a bit of a size so that people won't ask for anti-g suits or guns or things like that.


This may be easier in the long run for simplicity's sake. Although making some sort of division would create a difference in feel in tech levels, like the difference between sailing and steam ships if you wanted to create interesting and divergent environments.

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I assume the "playing field" is going to be huge (interstellar). If travel between stars is sub-C you'll have to deal with relativistics. If you're using wormhole, hyperspace, etc. you're already using at least as exotic technology as AG. I can't see why you shouldn't allow AG but allow "shortcuts". If you're using Super-C speeds you need huge acceleration and ID would make this tolerable for the people inside.


Interstellar travel is FTL, but depending on tech level, interplanetary flight may be STL. Here I think handwaving is best in that the g forces and translati
on issues get obviated.
(My criteria for adding a scientific principle or effect is if it is worth doing for the reward and adds to gameplay, not because its real).

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Inertial dampening and combat: As stated, ID removes effect of outside acceleration from the inside of the ship. ID may be controlled by a computer and while it's capable of correcting the steady acceleration of the ship (after all it gets information from the helm), shock effects by explosions will still cause things inside to be bounced around. If the ID device is in disrepair, damaged or destroyed the effects will be worse. Effects wary from a light shaking from an explosion to being thrown across the room to not being able to dampen engine acceleration (pulled toward the engine during acceleration).


Hmmmm... could be useful for saboteurs and boarders.

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Fighters: If you're using manned fighters you have to have ID. A normal human can survive 12Gs for a few seconds, but a missile can sustain heavy Gs without any problem (my cellular phone survives 200G - I would have been crushed). ID in fighters can remove for example 95% of pulling Gs, making it able to be much more manouverable. AG may not be needed.
The alternative is to only use missiles and drones. Or robot pilots [smile].


The drone / robot fighter universe is just too sterile for me, so I'm going with man-machine interface on this one as superior. So, yes, ID definitely.

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Artificial G and combat: If AG is knocked out or turned off things inside become weightless (assuming ID works). If you really want to have zero-g fighting inside the spaceships you can let the AG devices be very suspectible to energy fluctuations etc.


Ah, a delicate system. I've got a mechanism for that built into the combat engine, so I'll have to keep this in mind and try it.

Quote:
AG can sometimes also be used as a weapon. If you mount gravity plating in the roof as well as in the floor you can pummel intruders by swithcing the direction of the gravity. It might also be possible to increase the gravity to above normal, either crushing them (but then you'd probably do damage to the ship as well), or letting them feel what an insect feels when it's put in a jar and shaken. Everything not secured will also be thrown about though.


This would be a funny anim and an effective barrier in a corridoor, causing you to have to destroy the plates at range. If they were camoflagued, it would be much worse.

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You could give your soldiers extensive Zero-G training so that if the ship is invaded they'll have an edge during combat by turning off AG. If they have no training and the AG is disrupted they'll flap about like the frogs they sent to the ISS recently. It wasn't pretty.


This was one of the main reasons I thought about it being interesting. I see a galaxy with mishmash tech and its possible to have people using old, reliable tech they don't understand which generates gravity for them when they go into space (mass produced via push-button automation). Yet when they encounter a supposedly more "primitive" culture without AG, they might get their collective butts whipped in space.


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And finally, in Zero-G combat, remember - The enemy's gate is down.


???
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Quote:Original post by Kars
Just a though, I remember seeing a movie quite a while agao (Abyss I think) where a divers suit was filled with a bretable liquid so the diver could withstand more presser and go deeper. Don't know the science behind it (if there actually was any), but if it is sound....

- Insted of gravity you have a liquid filled ship. The crew get around by swiming (exercize) and are slightly less affected by suddon gravity shifts.


I think this concept works for pressure on the lungs and the ability to oxygenate the body under extreme pressures. It appears to be still highly experimental, so I'm not sure how applicable it is to gravitational forces. (Neat idea, anyways).

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I picture a ship with curving tubes for hallways and sphears or elliptoids for rooms. Crew would be trained to roll down tubes if they weren't strapped in. Equipment would be on tracks or "roll" with the gravity.


You might have all equipment in a rollcage, as well, if the desire is to keep the personnel more on their backs like with shuttle launches.

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I am assuming that the acceleration would not be the smoothest process so you would wind up with someone having to get their "space legs" simalar to what sailors do. Of course this is probabbly too much detatil for you game.


:) I'm scaring away people as it is.


--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Quote:Original post by Thermodynamics
slightly offtopic- I think that atmosperic landings would be prohibitted to some ships. They would only be able to dock to a space station and then have there cargo unloaded through space elevators (will there be any?) and/or specially designed surface to orbit dingys. I think the naval equivalent of weighing anchor away from land is a good analogy.


Agreed, and this is planned, not just for size but for planetary atmospheres so that you get three designations: Aerodynamic, Terrestrial Airless and Orbital. Capital ships usually get the last, bulky ships with thrusters (lunar landers) the last two, and microcraft and Highrunners usually get all three.
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Quote:Original post by Taolung
Ships that have rotating rings to provide a sort of artificial gravity aren't going to land. A lot of exotic ships aren't going to land.


I don't agree with you here provided that the rotating assembly has the ability to be locked. In terms of credibility, alot depends on the materials strength (monofilamentary?) which ties directly into how much stress is put on both ends of the assembly. VTOL and rotating wings have a similar issue. Imagine a 747 style ship where the middle rotates, and the linkages extend well into the hull at both ends.

Quote:
Maybe the ship can be designed like one of those wierd paintings where any surface could be a wall, floor, or ceiling, depending on what was going on. Walking down the hall, you'd see doors positioned every which way - on the ceiling, upside down, on the floor....


An MC Escher starship? Hah, technically you should be able to do that with artificial gravity. THAT would be a weird environment. :)
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Quote:Original post by Wavinator
Quote:
And finally, in Zero-G combat, remember - The enemy's gate is down.

???


"Ender's Game". Read the novel, is a good one, and Zero-G combat is an essencial part of it.
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Quote:Original post by Wavinator
Quote:
And finally, in Zero-G combat, remember - The enemy's gate is down.


???

Quote:"I am your enemy, the first one you've ever had who was smarter than you. There is no teacher but the enemy. No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you how to destroy and conquer. Only the enemy shows you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. I am your enemy from now on. From now on, I am your teacher."

I thought for sure you would recognize a classic Ender's Game reference.
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