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spree

Help with MSDN

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spree    100
Hello :) I seem to have a problem of finding http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/vcresed/html/vcurfdialogeditortabtoolboxwindow.asp but for win32 and not for MFC. I want some info about how to use controls at the dialog box, like the "list box control" and etc.,

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MrEvil    970
Heh, Microsoft don't seem to be interested in the straight Win32 interfaces any more, they seem fascinated with MFC :/
Bad for us game programmers!

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Oluseyi    2116
Quote:
Original post by MrEvil
Heh, Microsoft don't seem to be interested in the straight Win32 interfaces any more, they seem fascinated with MFC :/
Actually, they're fascinated with .NET, Windows Forms, Avalon and Windows Graphics Framework. Everything else is now officially "legacy".

Quote:
Bad for us game programmers!
I don't really think so. MFC is horrid, but Windows Forms is nice. And even if you can't or don't want to use .NET, there's always WTL, especially since it's been Open Sourced.

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spree    100
Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
Quote:
Original post by MrEvil
Heh, Microsoft don't seem to be interested in the straight Win32 interfaces any more, they seem fascinated with MFC :/
Actually, they're fascinated with .NET, Windows Forms, Avalon and Windows Graphics Framework. Everything else is now officially "legacy".

Quote:
Bad for us game programmers!
I don't really think so. MFC is horrid, but Windows Forms is nice. And even if you can't or don't want to use .NET, there's always WTL, especially since it's been Open Sourced.



So you mean that there is no point of studying MFC, its time to move to .NET ?

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
Good God... there never WAS a reason to study MFC. Unless you're making Word or something.

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Oluseyi    2116
Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
Good God... there never WAS a reason to study MFC. Unless you're making Word or something.
Tools.

It was also an interesting conceptual model of an object-oriented, message token-based windowing architecture abstraction.

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S1CA    1418
Quote:
Original post by MrEvil
Bad for us game programmers!


I disagree.

In my experience only 1-5% of the code in a Windows game is affected by what level, library or API you choose to talk to the system with (.NET, MFC, Win32, etc).

Additionally, most of that code has little to no impact on the performance of the game (window creation and message handling, advanced file system handling etc).

IMO, if the Win32 API dissapeared tomorrow and everyone was forced to use .NET for the system interaction parts of their game, I don't think the impact would be very large at all.

NOTE: I'm not saying you should write the game itself or engine in a managed language, native C++ and things such as unmanaged DirectX will still be used for a good while yet.


If you consider that development of a game includes development of custom tools (level editors, exporters, previewers, test rigs etc), then things such as .NET, MFC, or WTL are in fact extremely GOOD for us game programmers!

Creating a fully featured Windows UI program with things such as MDI, dockable toolbars, printing, custom tabbed properties dialogs etc can be a pain with plain Win32 - with things such as the .NET framework it's really easy; much simpler to write, much less code, simpler to debug, etc.

Letting someone else write the boring stuff with your tools (common controls, dialogs, message processing etc) gives you much more time to do the fun/interesting stuff (gameplay, special effects, etc). Personally I don't enjoy doing that boring stuff, I'd much rather someone on the .NET team at MS does it for me. [smile]


Quote:
Original post by spree
So you mean that there is no point of studying MFC, its time to move to .NET ?


There is still benefit to knowing MFC - there are lots of existing programs in the world which make extensive use of MFC as well as a ton of off the shelf extensions designed specifically for MFC; those programs and systems using them will need maintainence for a good while yet.

Personally, if I were starting work on anything new which made lots of use of the Windows GUI, I'd very strongly lean towards using the .NET framework (IMO it's a lot nicer than MFC).

As has been mentioned, MFC is becoming legacy, most new applications use .NET - that'll become the more important skill to have for the future (MFC is still a useful skill for *current* non-games jobs, but will be replaced).

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spree    100
Can you tell me more about .NET Visual Studio (c++) programing? Is it OOP as MFC? Or more like win32 api ? And where is a good point to start learing .NET?

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MrEvil    970
:/ I wasn't really complaining about the slowness of MFC, more its complexity.

We shouldn't have to spend ages learning MFC when we could be spending it learning to code games! :)

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