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Programmers should not Design! If yes Then industry = doomed

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If programmers continue to be the main game designers then the industry is Doomed. I see many programmers think they know it all and they only want artists. Some that are versatile and have double majors then that would be better. If the industry continues to be geared towards programmers to mainly design then there goes the industry. There are so many programmers that are able to make something good but the majority comes up with nothing special. The real problem is when they complain that they know how to make something good, but so far have not shown a great game. I see many programmers in the help wanted asking for people to help them in art, but many programmers would not like to assistance. The mentality has to change within the industry and outside of the industry to make better games and more meaningful games. They are good at times at what they do but should be humble and learn to listen. But there is always an exception for the few programmers due to life's certain circumstances. The top game designs come from non programmers like Shigeru Miyamoto which he majored in industrial design. Maybe there should be a job for just designing, and I know many will say that everyone has an idea but many have bad ideas. Many may have an idea or two that is good but they do not have enough to make an entire game. You see many in the help wanted asking for people and say they have an idea but they only have one concept and they would like artists, designers, programmers, etc. People that have a few are good fir assisting in putting an idea but are not that good for making a game. Another is artists which I have seen many that can draw but can not design. Many want a piece of the action. Another note is that many of the top people in the game industry got in it by luck to know someone that works in the company. The industry does not take risks to make better games to ask for designers but want more programmers to make bad games. You may like the game but many people like games of no substance. Many are content since they do not know the full potential of things. People that are content do not push for better thing and if many had it there way we would be play still with 4 or 8 bit systems like Atari or Nintendo which they pushed to not evolve games or give credit to the people that made the games. Games are still being pushed to not be evolved by distracting people with art than game play and content. If you want money and are going in the industry for the money then don’t! Go to the marketing part of the game industry since you work less and get paid more. Here is an article if you want to see about the future of game design on what will happen. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3727932.stm

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Where are you getting your information? Do you really think the "Help Wanted" boards are representative of the game industry? Do you really think that the grunt programmers are the ones that design the games in the industry?

Reguardless of the answers, I haven't seen a game that designed in quite a while. All the games I can think of were just copied.

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Game magazines, No, and no. But many programmers are lead to believe that, but some become designers. And as for your comment I agree.

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I have a better idea, people who don't play games shouldn't design them! It doesn't matter if you're a programmer/artist/industrial designer.

As far as the help wanted section goes, that's another issue altogether. If anything, it's a result of too many people with ideas, and not enough skill to follow them through. Which you might realize, would be less likely for a programmer.

You don't need to have a million ideas to make games. You do if you want to last longer than one game :), but those few ideas may be enough for a hit. Happens so often in music there's even a phrase for it, "one hit wonder".

In the end, it's the same for games as it is anything else, 1% inspiration, 99% persperation.

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That's funny: Shigeru Miyamoto was a programmer who got in the industry because of his dad. He doesn't prgram any more of course, but I know he at least programmed Donkey Kong. Google it.

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skill is skill, talent is talent, genious is genious ...

no skill translates on its own to another, no talent implies another, and genious in one area does not indicate rational thought in any other ...

but they don't prevent it either ...

The guy who said people who don't play games shouldn't design them - is wrong - not always, or most of the time - but some of the time. Many people play games, and know how to be a critic, but that is not the same as actually being able to design your own game. In fact, many many games are originally designed with no concept of how they will finally be played and enjoyed - they are designed because some creative freak has an idea they NEED to explore and express ... then the formalize it and clean it up, and it gets packages for mass consumption and played ...

IN THE OLD DAYS (when originality existed, and designs were not created by the market research division) when a game was played, the players often played it in ways completely differently than the designer did / does ... and in fact, some types of games are not even fun for the programmers to play (too much knowledge, no surprise) ... but that doesn't make them fun for the GAMER to play.

For example, a kid cannot design a kid's game, and an adult cannot get the kids gaming experience for themselves .... so how do they do it?

The first have the bravery to implement a design not knowing for sure that it will be liked ... then they get feedback ...

Then they do it again.

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Industary programmers don't work on thier own, there are in teams of 2-20 sometimes. Some programmers can design a game, but what really dooms a project is when it's one person designing the game. No one is good at everything. One person is not a design team.

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Original post by Extrarius
Where are you getting your information? Do you really think the "Help Wanted" boards are representative of the game industry? Do you really think that the grunt programmers are the ones that design the games in the industry?

Reguardless of the answers, I haven't seen a game that designed in quite a while. All the games I can think of were just copied.


Look at Nintendo GameCube's list and see that the best sales are from the firstparty games. Yu're right on the PC and XBox, but GCN and PS2 - do - have 'designed' games.

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That's why I like Nintendo.
As for programmers designing games, I don't see why they can't have some input at least, after all, everyone has ideas.

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Original post by Lord_Jabbercat
Industary programmers don't work on thier own, there are in teams of 2-20 sometimes. Some programmers can design a game, but what really dooms a project is when it's one person designing the game. No one is good at everything. One person is not a design team.


While this is partially true, I believe that there should only be one person (or a very small number of people who share a common vision) that actually shape the game. Whilst taking ideas from many people is always a good thing, there must be someone (who the rest of the team respect and trust) at the helm who can actually make the final call. I've worked on games which have had many people contribute to the design, only for the mechanics to become bloated and the visual style to be inconsistant.

Of course, the problem is finding someone you trust to make the "right call". :)

T

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There is absolutely no reason why programmers cannot design games. In fact, some of most celebrated designers in the industry are/were programmers. (Peter Molyneux, Sid Meier, to name the first two that came into my head)

So basically, Warsong's opinion is wrong.

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Problem whit non programmers is that they dont know what it takes to make games. I have nothing against designers and I think its good idea to have couble because its understandable that programmers need to spend most of their time coding and rather read from the design doc how the game is suposed to be than planning it on their spare time.
But designers really need know about programming in every area they are working on. How well, is another queston...

Just my opinion.

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Original post by Sandman
There is absolutely no reason why programmers cannot design games. In fact, some of most celebrated designers in the industry are/were programmers. (Peter Molyneux, Sid Meier, to name the first two that came into my head)

So basically, Warsong's opinion is wrong.


In the case of Molyneux, he either designed not enough to make a good game (Black & White 1), or he didn't make an original game (Fable).
Being celebrated doesn't mean their games were innovative.

So basically, I think your argument is not solid.

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Original post by GCoda
Problem whit non programmers is that they dont know what it takes to make games. I have nothing against designers and I think its good idea to have couble because its understandable that programmers need to spend most of their time coding and rather read from the design doc how the game is suposed to be than planning it on their spare time.
But designers really need know about programming in every area they are working on. How well, is another queston...

Just my opinion.


Most of them DO get that study nowadays, although I'm kinda against it. Designers need to have fantasy, and should not know limitations. That's what makes a good designer!
If an idea is REALLY impossible, you can reject that, if not, isn't it a challenge to make it work?

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Original post by Pipo DeClown
So basically, I think your argument is not solid.


1. He didn't design Fable anyway. He had some input on it, but the designers were Simon and Dene Carter, ISTR.

2. Black and White and Fable are not the only games Molyneux has worked on, you know.

3. Even if we assumed that Molyneux is in fact, the worst designer ever, there are still other designers I could have mentioned, like Will Wright or Ernest Adams, etc.

I'm not saying that all programmers are necessarily good designers, nor am I trying to imply that the best designers are programmers, I'm simply saying there is no good reason why a programmer cannot be a designer.

(Incidentally, although Shigeru Miyamoto did program Donkey Kong, that was in apparently his first ever experience with programming. He was primarily an artist, at least according to Wikipedia)

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Designers have historically come from a programming background. When the games industry started, programmers were all you had. As the industry matured (if you can apply "maturity" to an industry obsessed with violence and breasts), those early one-man-band developers moved on to other roles. This is why so many older codeshops are run by ex-programmers.

Today, the one-man-band developer is a rarity, although you do still see a few. Chris Sawyer, for instance, designs and programs his own games with only a freelance artist and musician for help. He is arguably the most successful "indie" developer in the industry.

It is a valid point that a good designer should have an understanding of programming, an appreciation of art and graphic design, an understanding of the role of music in an interactive medium and...

I usually sum it up as: "Know enough about the relevant fields to recognise bullshit when you hear it." This is a pretty good rule of thumb for any management-related role, so it's not specific to design.

It is certainly possible for a complete newbie to be a 'natural' designer, but such people are exceptionally rare. A Mozart comes along perhaps once every generation, but it helps your interpersonal relationships in the team if you have at least some grasp of what your fellow colleagues are actually doing all day.

Now the real crux of this argument about programmer-designers is that computer games _are_ programs. It is the program code that melds the various media together into one interactive gestalt. This is why programmers are often to protective of their role in the game development process, even though the Lead Programmer is, essentially, the equivalent of a cinematographer: the game designer communicates his vision. The Lead Programmer -- who usually works on the 'gameplay programming' side of things these days -- actually Makes It Happen.

(Spielberg doesn't actually point the camera at the cast and set himself. The shot is actually taken by his cinematographer.)

That said, the need for the designer to communicate clearly and unambiguously with his colleagues is the reason why an understanding of programming, art, graphic design and audio is so important. If you don't know what a sample rate is, or how it'll affect the soundtrack of your game, you need to study more.

--
Sean Timarco Baggaley

EDIT: Chris Sawyer's website appears to be between updates or something. Suffice to say that he developed Transport Tycoon, Rollercoaster Tycoon 1 & 2 (and designed RT3), and his latest opus is Chris Sawyer's Locomotion

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There are those people that know what good games are about, and happen to be very capable programmers besides.

So they design a good game, and use programming as a tool to develop it.

Nothing hard about that.

But yes, to design a game purely from the perspective of the excitement of programming would be bad. You wouldn't reach much of an audience.

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My personal philosophy of game design is: think of what you want, then figure out how to program it, rather than always working inside the limitations of what you know how to do. Sure, you might find out it's impossible to code your idea, but along the way you'll have learned stuff you didn't know, and maybe be able to translate that idea into a feasible version. I'm obviously not a programmer on the scale needed to make a game, but this is how I've gone about most of what I have coded. You don't write a book by saying "ok I wanna use 'the' x number of times, 'umbrella' y number of times" etc. You think of what you wanna say, and then you figure out how to say it. If more games were designed with this thought in mind, there might be more of them worth playing.

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I was originally a psychology major back in the day, so my initial background was in the liberal arts. I've also always had a deep love of military history (it runs in the family) and philosophy.

But about 3 years ago, after thinking about designs for a strategy game I had in mind, I realized that it would be better if I didn't just have an idea for a game, but I also knew the underlying details of how to make it. It's always better if you know both what product it is that you wish to make and how you're actually going to make it. When a designer has no clue about programming, his "wish list" may include details that are either impossible to recreate on the computer, or are very difficult. Moreover, trying to get your idea across to the programmers may be difficult, and the programmers may think they know what you want, but in the end, they implement your gameplay ideas in a totally different manner.

My question to you is, "Why does a programmer have to be a one-dimensional, narrowly focused, uncreative individual?". Having been both a liberal arts major and now a senior in computer science, I can honestly say that it takes more hard work and studying to do hard sciences or engineering than most of the humanities or social sciences (with the possible exception of linguisitics or foreign languages). I know many programmers who have hobbies and interests outside of programming which makes them multi-dimensional. Fundamentally, a programmer must be a creative problem solver. A programmer must also do something that rarely occurs to people without hard science or mathematics backgrounds..before he can find a solution for a problem, he has to understand what the problem truly is. As Pablo Picasso said, "Computers are worthless, all they can give is answers". But this belies the fact that it took programmers to ask the questions that give the answers. Asking questions must preceed getting the answers.

And that's where a primary disadvantage lay for the non-programming designers. Programmers in fact don't just deal with the implemenation of code, but they often have to model the system they wish to create. Whenever you model a system, you must abstract out the key essential qualities of that system. Choosing what to factor out, and how much you abstract is crucial. Then you have to translate these factors into what the computer can deal with. Non-programmers can only consider what key factors they wish to model. Ideally, a designer should be able to come up with gameplay ideas (the abstraction of what key elements to model of the system) as well as be able to consider how these factors may be influenced by translating it to the computer domain (not just the implementation of the code, but the actual ergonomics of interfacing with a computer I/O system as well as if these factors are even possible).

I think the main reason games are so bland and unimaginative are due more to business and marketing reasons rather than having programmers at the helm of game design. Games are made by big businesses and they don't want to take a risk by doing something too new or innovative. If game development is anything like the comics business, you have editors and "men in suits" who force the creative people to follow a certain direction even if it goes against their artistic vision. Unfortunately, many games are designed for the "lowest common denominator" to attract the most people. Also, the fact that a game that pioneers a new genre often doesn't sell extremely well (but often garners critical acclaim), while its successors do, also makes developers more leery to push the envelope.

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Quote:
Original post by Pipo DeClown
Quote:
Original post by Sandman
There is absolutely no reason why programmers cannot design games. In fact, some of most celebrated designers in the industry are/were programmers. (Peter Molyneux, Sid Meier, to name the first two that came into my head)

So basically, Warsong's opinion is wrong.


In the case of Molyneux, he either designed not enough to make a good game (Black & White 1), or he didn't make an original game (Fable).
Being celebrated doesn't mean their games were innovative.

So basically, I think your argument is not solid.


You know he made quite a few games before that, don't you? Populous was innovative when it came out. Dungeon Keeper was innovative when it came out. How about Syndicate? Black & White was innovative (although it had it's flaws). He's made plenty other games, which were 1) innovative, and 2) damn good quality.

Besides, you didn't touch on his other example, Sid Meier. Haven't he made original games? Haven't they beeen high quality?

So you're saying that because you personally don't like 2 of Molyneux's games, no programmer can make a good game? Riiight...

And designers should definitely know limitations. They need to know what is possible and what isn't. Thats how they know where to focus their efforts, which parts of the game to develop, where to take a shortcut. Many really bad games have come around by the designers wanting to do everything, and failed miserably because, well, it just isn't possible.

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All this time that's been wasted whining could have been spent learning to code and designing your own game Warsong. You're just bitter, so you troll here endlessly.

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Uh, the original post seems divorced from reality.

>Maybe there should be a job for just designing ...

Virtually every major title I can think of has a full-time designer running it. Most have more than one. Some of these people came up from the programming ranks, but just as many didn't.

For example, here in Sony's Santa Monica studio there are about a dozen full-time designers. I don't know everyone's work history, but I think only two or three of us started out as programmers.


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Raghar's designer abilities quiz


//It's unfinished and currently it's rather simple. (and was
// writen in haste. It could however give a some estimates
//about a game designer abilities.


How many books have you read? (1000+ , nice points+)

How many of them were about programing? (3+, point+ on you know where)

How many of them were about 3D graphic? (4+, point+)

How many of them were about SF? (15+, point+) (156+ Shackley, Zelazny, (Herbert) Clarke, (Asimov), Dick, (Pohl), Vonnegut,(Banks), Dickson, (Heinlein), nice points+) (270+, demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)

How many of them were about fantasy? (12+, point+) (80+ Wurst , Zelazny, Tolkien, (Lovecraft), Faist, (McCaffrey), nice points+) (250+ demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
(Combined 135/75)

//Options in bracers are amount of not necessary needed writers
// to qualify for that level.

How many of them were about main stream (normal literature)? (25+, point+)

Do you have any writer talent? (honest answer, 1 point+)

How many books have you published, or in what game / artist related activities (not playing, not already described) have you been engaged? (Making movies matters less because its famous operation) (mostly point-, but sometimes for long pursued difficult goal point+)

How many games have you played?

Are you addicted on games? If not then why not, or why have you been stopped to be addicted on games?

Have you been ever kicked from the school because you were non polite? (yes 1 point+)

Have you ever been kicked from the school because you were polite? (yes 1 point+)

Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)? (any beginned work that you could look point+, any reasonably stable and working work 3 points+, any finished work that is somewhat complex 17 points+, any finished work that demanded his own research on Internet 15 points+, any reasonably complex work that demanded his own research done just by him 50 points+, finished work that demanded his own research done purely by him thats mean algorithms not copied and he done things that wasn't described anywhere and was able use his own brain to make it somewhat usable even if his original concept didn't turn as nice as he expected, 295 points+ aka very nice points+)

If you'd have hamburger, or chocolate bar what would you choose?

Do you smoke? And if yes are you able to stop?

Do you drink alcohol? And if yes are you able to stop completely?


points are not possible to add directly. Points gained from "Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)?" are possible to use in a direct comparison with other programmers.
(It should be noted that for evaluation of programs, senior programmer is needed. Also person that do this questions should be highly qualified by experience, not by school.)

After my experience I would also add these questions.
Are you able to repair your own computer?
Are you able to diagnose HW failures?
Are you able to setup your computer?
Are you able to install OS?
Are you able to disk part in a way that would allow you to use your HD for several years, even if you don't know your future tasks?

Alas not every corporation would do something that detailed. So yes sometimes on position of game designers are weenies.

Copyright Raghar 2004.



Actually what I hate are game designers that are doing it just for money.

Game designers that are just a higher management with idea hey I'm higher management I "known" what will sell so I would design a wonderful game (If programmers and sub designers will make it somewhat reasonable it's not utter catastrophe)

And of course idiots with diploma that were able to get into theirs position just thanks that diploma (and by luck, and by knowing someone...) and don't know what it takes to be long time productive game designer. (Hint ask some writer about evasion of a burnout.)

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Original post by Raghar
Raghar's designer abilities quiz


//It's unfinished and currently it's rather simple. (and was
// writen in haste. It could however give a some estimates
//about a game designer abilities.


I question what some of these questions have to do with design ability.


How many books have you read? (1000+ , nice points+)
I can't count them exactly. Can you? I've read Chaucer, Voltaire, Milton, Shakespeare, the Bronte sisters, Twain, Hemingway, Doyle, Christie, Poe, Lovecraft, Niven, Herbert, Asimov and others. I've read some of the works of Hegel and Kant. I've read eastern philosophies like the Life Giving Sword and The Unfettered Mind. I've read several history books spanning from the periods of Phillip of Macedonia all the way to the Vietnam Conflict (haven't read too much past the 60's).

How many of them were about programing? (3+, point+ on you know where)

Ohhh, off the top of my head, about 8. From cover to cover, probably only one of them though. Several of those were textbooks though.

How many of them were about 3D graphic? (4+, point+)
Two, Norman Lin's book on 3d Linux Programming. I've only read about halfway through the first volume though, and scanned a few sections of the second.

How many of them were about SF? (15+, point+) (156+ Shackley, Zelazny, (Herbert) Clarke, (Asimov), Dick, (Pohl), Vonnegut,(Banks), Dickson, (Heinlein), nice points+) (270+, demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)

I read the Princes of Amber series from Zelazny. An interesting concept, but the whole chaos vs. princes of order thing seemed a bit unimaginative to me. I've read the first four books of the Dune series by Frank Herbert (only the first 2 were good). Herbert's books and setting are probably my favorite of the sci-fi settings. From Asimov, I read the first three of the Foundations trilogy, which had an excellent premise, but I think the whole "Mule" thing kinda made it veer in the wrong direction. From Clarke, I read the third book (2060?) where one of the gas giants was supposed to have a diamond core, but found that much more boring and less inspirational than the first two. Only read Read Stranger in a Strange Land by Heinlein.

How many of them were about fantasy? (12+, point+) (80+ Wurst , Zelazny, Tolkien, (Lovecraft), Faist, (McCaffrey), nice points+) (250+ demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
Only read the Fellowship of the Ring trilogy, though I started on the Silmarillion but never had a chance to finish. Tolkein's legendary status is due I think to the attention of detail and consistency he placed on hiw world creation. But I'm surprised you didn't include choices like Saberhagen, Ursula K Leguin, Howard Carter, or Michael Moorcock. Or what about Beowulf, Gilgamesh, or other mythic (fantasy)?


How many of them were about main stream (normal literature)? (25+, point+)

What do you mean by normal literature? You mean like plain old fiction? A lot of the classics....all back either in high school or early college. Many of the Victorian and Edwardian english writers for example. I detested most American authors however, save Hemingway, Twain, Steinbeck and Melville. Oh, and Jack London.

Do you have any writer talent? (honest answer, 1 point+)
Don't know for sure, but the little small fiction pieces I wrote in high school and freshman college were very well received by my teachers.

How many books have you published, or in what game / artist related activities (not playing, not already described) have you been engaged? (Making movies matters less because its famous operation) (mostly point-, but sometimes for long pursued difficult goal point+)
Nothing yet, but hopefully that will change soon

How many games have you played?
Lately very few. I just don't have the time. On average, I'd say maybe 4 a year.

Are you addicted on games? If not then why not, or why have you been stopped to be addicted on games?
Nope. Far more interesting things in life than escaping with games. I don't even like the word game, I prefer "iteractive experience".

Have you been ever kicked from the school because you were non polite? (yes 1 point+)
Nope, I was a goody two shoes....though I wonder how being anti-social has anything to do with creativity.

Have you ever been kicked from the school because you were polite? (yes 1 point+)
Again, no. Why should this matter?

Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)? (any beginned work that you could look point+, any reasonably stable and working work 3 points+, any finished work that is somewhat complex 17 points+, any finished work that demanded his own research on Internet 15 points+, any reasonably complex work that demanded his own research done just by him 50 points+, finished work that demanded his own research done purely by him thats mean algorithms not copied and he done things that wasn't described anywhere and was able use his own brain to make it somewhat usable even if his original concept didn't turn as nice as he expected, 295 points+ aka very nice points+)

I started designing a few classes here and there. Made a few simple diagrams and developed the backdrop of a story. I started building an algorithm for my vehicle and infantry building system, but realized it wasn't how I wanted to do it.Unfortunately time constraints hamper my ability to do much. Sometimes it'll be a month before I can do any work on my game idea, and it's almost like I have to start from scratch because I lost hold of some of my ideas.

If you'd have hamburger, or chocolate bar what would you choose?
ohh, tough one. I'd go for the hamburger. It'll fill you up more.

Do you smoke? And if yes are you able to stop?
Do you drink alcohol? And if yes are you able to stop completely?

No to both. Have never smoked and never will. And much to the chagrin of my Irish ancestors, I've never even had a buzz in my life. I'm a control freak of my sobriety.


After my experience I would also add these questions.
Are you able to repair your own computer?
Yup, and build them. Worked as a techie for years.
Are you able to diagnose HW failures? Usually. Sometimes though software conflicts can be the problem.
last 6 years are home built
Are you able to install OS?
Yup, including several Linux distros.
Are you able to disk part in a way that would allow you to use your HD for several years, even if you don't know your future tasks? My general rule of thumb is to allocate a few gigs to your OS partition, and then at least one more as a data partition. For linux, it's a bit trickier, because you have to worry about user accesible partitions


I agree with you in that actually getting work done is the most important step. But as the saying goes, the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

Now a few questions for you. Why only concern yourself with fiction? What about history, philosophy, anthropology and current events? I think one of the worst aspects of the game industry is its incestuous inbreeding of concepts only from within its own selected "idea pool" (as opposed to a gene pool). What made Dune so great was its look at social engineering and human engineering. The Foundation series was amazing because of its look at the possibility of mathematics and sociology blending together (which is being somewhat mirrored by Memetics today). If we only draw our inspiration and creativity from other fictional and game sources, then we'll ultimately wind up with no creativity at all.

So I urge game designers to look to outside sources...to non-fiction. Let them study philosophy and history and the humanities.

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The thing is that designing good games is not easy and takes time, designing bad games is easy and takes no time. Practically everyone you ask in this forum has an idea, and some have the ability to make there idea which most of the times is nothing special. I see many people making the same game and they do not joining together that could probably make a better game like the so many mmorpg, rpg, action, adventure, racing, etc. the thing is that many programmers have to get off their high horse and accept an assistant designer which I never see them asking for one. Some think they have it under control which it’s good that they have confidence but two heads are better than one.

Thedevdan
No he did not program. If you can find an official page that says so then ok but until then it’s just a myth. Like Miyamoto said: “Until the time of Donkey Kong, which was the first game I directed, programming and hardware engineers were responsible for game design.”
read more here= http://www.miyamotoshrine.com/theman/interviews/031899.shtml “Miyamoto had his father contact an old friend who ran a toy company. The friends name was Hiroshi Yamauchi. The company was Nintendo”

sandman
You opinion is noted as well ;) Like is said there are the exceptions but as I said and the article said you can see more with people that a different perspective. This believe that programs should design mainly is not true, and for programmers to shun off designers and that they think they are a one man crew does not help. Odds are that many of the programmers here tried to make a game and as you see they did not impress the game industry.

Gcode
I do not think that many non programmers got over board. I worked with programmers and I said thing that they could not do, and it’s not that it is impossible since others say they can do it and other games have done it, but that programmers do not know how to do it. If that is the case then the designer would need to work around it. 2D games are just pictures being controlled to be moved around and put in and out of the screen, which you may disagree but some other programmers see it that way too, as does Miyamoto.

Stimarco
You said it well.
Bad designers make games with no morals and have so much sex and violence is because they can not create anything good. They take low blows like bringing a gun to a fist fight. Many won’t understand it and think its ok but it shows that they have no skill in that area. Ask most to make a proper game they can not they need to use art, sound, sex, and violence to sell their game since they can not reply much on their designing abilities. The game GTA3 for example is considered the best game of all time, but does that mean that the guy is the best designer and the game is

Waverider
Exactly

Dantless
Exactly. In my computer classes I was assisting the teacher since the programmers didn’t get it, and maybe it is like what you said that they might be thinking in one dimension. An artist can think more abstract than a programmer. Also that is true that the people in suits direct how the games will be and push for the lowest denominator. Companies also do not want to take risks since it costs a lot of money to make a game. Programmers that are not in the industry have an opportunity to make something new and all is see are bad clones that make the original 10 times better. If you see game contests you will see that over 90% of the games are not original and not worth playing.

Spoonster
I agree that some people want to do things that are not possible. But many programmers do not push for more innovation. I know people say that many were banging their heads when DOS came out thinking that they could have done it. Some programmers even think that someone like bill gates is an enigma which he did so much.

Anonymous
LOL, did I hit a nerve? Also how come you post as anonymous? lol

Brain upton
The thing is that many here object to a full time designer. I also started off as a programmer and a few in my class went to computer science to try and joining the game industry to design.

Right?

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