Programmers should not Design! If yes Then industry = doomed
All this time that's been wasted whining could have been spent learning to code and designing your own game Warsong. You're just bitter, so you troll here endlessly.
Uh, the original post seems divorced from reality.
>Maybe there should be a job for just designing ...
Virtually every major title I can think of has a full-time designer running it. Most have more than one. Some of these people came up from the programming ranks, but just as many didn't.
For example, here in Sony's Santa Monica studio there are about a dozen full-time designers. I don't know everyone's work history, but I think only two or three of us started out as programmers.
>Maybe there should be a job for just designing ...
Virtually every major title I can think of has a full-time designer running it. Most have more than one. Some of these people came up from the programming ranks, but just as many didn't.
For example, here in Sony's Santa Monica studio there are about a dozen full-time designers. I don't know everyone's work history, but I think only two or three of us started out as programmers.
Raghar's designer abilities quiz
//It's unfinished and currently it's rather simple. (and was
// writen in haste. It could however give a some estimates
//about a game designer abilities.
How many books have you read? (1000+ , nice points+)
How many of them were about programing? (3+, point+ on you know where)
How many of them were about 3D graphic? (4+, point+)
How many of them were about SF? (15+, point+) (156+ Shackley, Zelazny, (Herbert) Clarke, (Asimov), Dick, (Pohl), Vonnegut,(Banks), Dickson, (Heinlein), nice points+) (270+, demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
How many of them were about fantasy? (12+, point+) (80+ Wurst , Zelazny, Tolkien, (Lovecraft), Faist, (McCaffrey), nice points+) (250+ demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
(Combined 135/75)
//Options in bracers are amount of not necessary needed writers
// to qualify for that level.
How many of them were about main stream (normal literature)? (25+, point+)
Do you have any writer talent? (honest answer, 1 point+)
How many books have you published, or in what game / artist related activities (not playing, not already described) have you been engaged? (Making movies matters less because its famous operation) (mostly point-, but sometimes for long pursued difficult goal point+)
How many games have you played?
Are you addicted on games? If not then why not, or why have you been stopped to be addicted on games?
Have you been ever kicked from the school because you were non polite? (yes 1 point+)
Have you ever been kicked from the school because you were polite? (yes 1 point+)
Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)? (any beginned work that you could look point+, any reasonably stable and working work 3 points+, any finished work that is somewhat complex 17 points+, any finished work that demanded his own research on Internet 15 points+, any reasonably complex work that demanded his own research done just by him 50 points+, finished work that demanded his own research done purely by him thats mean algorithms not copied and he done things that wasn't described anywhere and was able use his own brain to make it somewhat usable even if his original concept didn't turn as nice as he expected, 295 points+ aka very nice points+)
If you'd have hamburger, or chocolate bar what would you choose?
Do you smoke? And if yes are you able to stop?
Do you drink alcohol? And if yes are you able to stop completely?
points are not possible to add directly. Points gained from "Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)?" are possible to use in a direct comparison with other programmers.
(It should be noted that for evaluation of programs, senior programmer is needed. Also person that do this questions should be highly qualified by experience, not by school.)
After my experience I would also add these questions.
Are you able to repair your own computer?
Are you able to diagnose HW failures?
Are you able to setup your computer?
Are you able to install OS?
Are you able to disk part in a way that would allow you to use your HD for several years, even if you don't know your future tasks?
Alas not every corporation would do something that detailed. So yes sometimes on position of game designers are weenies.
Copyright Raghar 2004.
Actually what I hate are game designers that are doing it just for money.
Game designers that are just a higher management with idea hey I'm higher management I "known" what will sell so I would design a wonderful game (If programmers and sub designers will make it somewhat reasonable it's not utter catastrophe)
And of course idiots with diploma that were able to get into theirs position just thanks that diploma (and by luck, and by knowing someone...) and don't know what it takes to be long time productive game designer. (Hint ask some writer about evasion of a burnout.)
//It's unfinished and currently it's rather simple. (and was
// writen in haste. It could however give a some estimates
//about a game designer abilities.
How many books have you read? (1000+ , nice points+)
How many of them were about programing? (3+, point+ on you know where)
How many of them were about 3D graphic? (4+, point+)
How many of them were about SF? (15+, point+) (156+ Shackley, Zelazny, (Herbert) Clarke, (Asimov), Dick, (Pohl), Vonnegut,(Banks), Dickson, (Heinlein), nice points+) (270+, demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
How many of them were about fantasy? (12+, point+) (80+ Wurst , Zelazny, Tolkien, (Lovecraft), Faist, (McCaffrey), nice points+) (250+ demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
(Combined 135/75)
//Options in bracers are amount of not necessary needed writers
// to qualify for that level.
How many of them were about main stream (normal literature)? (25+, point+)
Do you have any writer talent? (honest answer, 1 point+)
How many books have you published, or in what game / artist related activities (not playing, not already described) have you been engaged? (Making movies matters less because its famous operation) (mostly point-, but sometimes for long pursued difficult goal point+)
How many games have you played?
Are you addicted on games? If not then why not, or why have you been stopped to be addicted on games?
Have you been ever kicked from the school because you were non polite? (yes 1 point+)
Have you ever been kicked from the school because you were polite? (yes 1 point+)
Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)? (any beginned work that you could look point+, any reasonably stable and working work 3 points+, any finished work that is somewhat complex 17 points+, any finished work that demanded his own research on Internet 15 points+, any reasonably complex work that demanded his own research done just by him 50 points+, finished work that demanded his own research done purely by him thats mean algorithms not copied and he done things that wasn't described anywhere and was able use his own brain to make it somewhat usable even if his original concept didn't turn as nice as he expected, 295 points+ aka very nice points+)
If you'd have hamburger, or chocolate bar what would you choose?
Do you smoke? And if yes are you able to stop?
Do you drink alcohol? And if yes are you able to stop completely?
points are not possible to add directly. Points gained from "Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)?" are possible to use in a direct comparison with other programmers.
(It should be noted that for evaluation of programs, senior programmer is needed. Also person that do this questions should be highly qualified by experience, not by school.)
After my experience I would also add these questions.
Are you able to repair your own computer?
Are you able to diagnose HW failures?
Are you able to setup your computer?
Are you able to install OS?
Are you able to disk part in a way that would allow you to use your HD for several years, even if you don't know your future tasks?
Alas not every corporation would do something that detailed. So yes sometimes on position of game designers are weenies.
Copyright Raghar 2004.
Actually what I hate are game designers that are doing it just for money.
Game designers that are just a higher management with idea hey I'm higher management I "known" what will sell so I would design a wonderful game (If programmers and sub designers will make it somewhat reasonable it's not utter catastrophe)
And of course idiots with diploma that were able to get into theirs position just thanks that diploma (and by luck, and by knowing someone...) and don't know what it takes to be long time productive game designer. (Hint ask some writer about evasion of a burnout.)
Quote:Original post by Raghar
Raghar's designer abilities quiz
//It's unfinished and currently it's rather simple. (and was
// writen in haste. It could however give a some estimates
//about a game designer abilities.
I question what some of these questions have to do with design ability.
How many books have you read? (1000+ , nice points+)
I can't count them exactly. Can you? I've read Chaucer, Voltaire, Milton, Shakespeare, the Bronte sisters, Twain, Hemingway, Doyle, Christie, Poe, Lovecraft, Niven, Herbert, Asimov and others. I've read some of the works of Hegel and Kant. I've read eastern philosophies like the Life Giving Sword and The Unfettered Mind. I've read several history books spanning from the periods of Phillip of Macedonia all the way to the Vietnam Conflict (haven't read too much past the 60's).
How many of them were about programing? (3+, point+ on you know where)
Ohhh, off the top of my head, about 8. From cover to cover, probably only one of them though. Several of those were textbooks though.
How many of them were about 3D graphic? (4+, point+)
Two, Norman Lin's book on 3d Linux Programming. I've only read about halfway through the first volume though, and scanned a few sections of the second.
How many of them were about SF? (15+, point+) (156+ Shackley, Zelazny, (Herbert) Clarke, (Asimov), Dick, (Pohl), Vonnegut,(Banks), Dickson, (Heinlein), nice points+) (270+, demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
I read the Princes of Amber series from Zelazny. An interesting concept, but the whole chaos vs. princes of order thing seemed a bit unimaginative to me. I've read the first four books of the Dune series by Frank Herbert (only the first 2 were good). Herbert's books and setting are probably my favorite of the sci-fi settings. From Asimov, I read the first three of the Foundations trilogy, which had an excellent premise, but I think the whole "Mule" thing kinda made it veer in the wrong direction. From Clarke, I read the third book (2060?) where one of the gas giants was supposed to have a diamond core, but found that much more boring and less inspirational than the first two. Only read Read Stranger in a Strange Land by Heinlein.
How many of them were about fantasy? (12+, point+) (80+ Wurst , Zelazny, Tolkien, (Lovecraft), Faist, (McCaffrey), nice points+) (250+ demand a few sentences long honest answer on status of his writing talent)
Only read the Fellowship of the Ring trilogy, though I started on the Silmarillion but never had a chance to finish. Tolkein's legendary status is due I think to the attention of detail and consistency he placed on hiw world creation. But I'm surprised you didn't include choices like Saberhagen, Ursula K Leguin, Howard Carter, or Michael Moorcock. Or what about Beowulf, Gilgamesh, or other mythic (fantasy)?
How many of them were about main stream (normal literature)? (25+, point+)
What do you mean by normal literature? You mean like plain old fiction? A lot of the classics....all back either in high school or early college. Many of the Victorian and Edwardian english writers for example. I detested most American authors however, save Hemingway, Twain, Steinbeck and Melville. Oh, and Jack London.
Do you have any writer talent? (honest answer, 1 point+)
Don't know for sure, but the little small fiction pieces I wrote in high school and freshman college were very well received by my teachers.
How many books have you published, or in what game / artist related activities (not playing, not already described) have you been engaged? (Making movies matters less because its famous operation) (mostly point-, but sometimes for long pursued difficult goal point+)
Nothing yet, but hopefully that will change soon
How many games have you played?
Lately very few. I just don't have the time. On average, I'd say maybe 4 a year.
Are you addicted on games? If not then why not, or why have you been stopped to be addicted on games?
Nope. Far more interesting things in life than escaping with games. I don't even like the word game, I prefer "iteractive experience".
Have you been ever kicked from the school because you were non polite? (yes 1 point+)
Nope, I was a goody two shoes....though I wonder how being anti-social has anything to do with creativity.
Have you ever been kicked from the school because you were polite? (yes 1 point+)
Again, no. Why should this matter?
Have you done any work (mean what have you on your computer it's not necessary about your previous employer)? (any beginned work that you could look point+, any reasonably stable and working work 3 points+, any finished work that is somewhat complex 17 points+, any finished work that demanded his own research on Internet 15 points+, any reasonably complex work that demanded his own research done just by him 50 points+, finished work that demanded his own research done purely by him thats mean algorithms not copied and he done things that wasn't described anywhere and was able use his own brain to make it somewhat usable even if his original concept didn't turn as nice as he expected, 295 points+ aka very nice points+)
I started designing a few classes here and there. Made a few simple diagrams and developed the backdrop of a story. I started building an algorithm for my vehicle and infantry building system, but realized it wasn't how I wanted to do it.Unfortunately time constraints hamper my ability to do much. Sometimes it'll be a month before I can do any work on my game idea, and it's almost like I have to start from scratch because I lost hold of some of my ideas.
If you'd have hamburger, or chocolate bar what would you choose?
ohh, tough one. I'd go for the hamburger. It'll fill you up more.
Do you smoke? And if yes are you able to stop?
Do you drink alcohol? And if yes are you able to stop completely?
No to both. Have never smoked and never will. And much to the chagrin of my Irish ancestors, I've never even had a buzz in my life. I'm a control freak of my sobriety.
After my experience I would also add these questions.
Are you able to repair your own computer? Yup, and build them. Worked as a techie for years.
Are you able to diagnose HW failures? Usually. Sometimes though software conflicts can be the problem.
last 6 years are home built
Are you able to install OS? Yup, including several Linux distros.
Are you able to disk part in a way that would allow you to use your HD for several years, even if you don't know your future tasks? My general rule of thumb is to allocate a few gigs to your OS partition, and then at least one more as a data partition. For linux, it's a bit trickier, because you have to worry about user accesible partitions
I agree with you in that actually getting work done is the most important step. But as the saying goes, the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
Now a few questions for you. Why only concern yourself with fiction? What about history, philosophy, anthropology and current events? I think one of the worst aspects of the game industry is its incestuous inbreeding of concepts only from within its own selected "idea pool" (as opposed to a gene pool). What made Dune so great was its look at social engineering and human engineering. The Foundation series was amazing because of its look at the possibility of mathematics and sociology blending together (which is being somewhat mirrored by Memetics today). If we only draw our inspiration and creativity from other fictional and game sources, then we'll ultimately wind up with no creativity at all.
So I urge game designers to look to outside sources...to non-fiction. Let them study philosophy and history and the humanities.
Author
The thing is that designing good games is not easy and takes time, designing bad games is easy and takes no time. Practically everyone you ask in this forum has an idea, and some have the ability to make there idea which most of the times is nothing special. I see many people making the same game and they do not joining together that could probably make a better game like the so many mmorpg, rpg, action, adventure, racing, etc. the thing is that many programmers have to get off their high horse and accept an assistant designer which I never see them asking for one. Some think they have it under control which it’s good that they have confidence but two heads are better than one.
Thedevdan
No he did not program. If you can find an official page that says so then ok but until then it’s just a myth. Like Miyamoto said: “Until the time of Donkey Kong, which was the first game I directed, programming and hardware engineers were responsible for game design.”
read more here= http://www.miyamotoshrine.com/theman/interviews/031899.shtml “Miyamoto had his father contact an old friend who ran a toy company. The friends name was Hiroshi Yamauchi. The company was Nintendo”
sandman
You opinion is noted as well ;) Like is said there are the exceptions but as I said and the article said you can see more with people that a different perspective. This believe that programs should design mainly is not true, and for programmers to shun off designers and that they think they are a one man crew does not help. Odds are that many of the programmers here tried to make a game and as you see they did not impress the game industry.
Gcode
I do not think that many non programmers got over board. I worked with programmers and I said thing that they could not do, and it’s not that it is impossible since others say they can do it and other games have done it, but that programmers do not know how to do it. If that is the case then the designer would need to work around it. 2D games are just pictures being controlled to be moved around and put in and out of the screen, which you may disagree but some other programmers see it that way too, as does Miyamoto.
Stimarco
You said it well.
Bad designers make games with no morals and have so much sex and violence is because they can not create anything good. They take low blows like bringing a gun to a fist fight. Many won’t understand it and think its ok but it shows that they have no skill in that area. Ask most to make a proper game they can not they need to use art, sound, sex, and violence to sell their game since they can not reply much on their designing abilities. The game GTA3 for example is considered the best game of all time, but does that mean that the guy is the best designer and the game is
Waverider
Exactly
Dantless
Exactly. In my computer classes I was assisting the teacher since the programmers didn’t get it, and maybe it is like what you said that they might be thinking in one dimension. An artist can think more abstract than a programmer. Also that is true that the people in suits direct how the games will be and push for the lowest denominator. Companies also do not want to take risks since it costs a lot of money to make a game. Programmers that are not in the industry have an opportunity to make something new and all is see are bad clones that make the original 10 times better. If you see game contests you will see that over 90% of the games are not original and not worth playing.
Spoonster
I agree that some people want to do things that are not possible. But many programmers do not push for more innovation. I know people say that many were banging their heads when DOS came out thinking that they could have done it. Some programmers even think that someone like bill gates is an enigma which he did so much.
Anonymous
LOL, did I hit a nerve? Also how come you post as anonymous? lol
Brain upton
The thing is that many here object to a full time designer. I also started off as a programmer and a few in my class went to computer science to try and joining the game industry to design.
Right?
Thedevdan
No he did not program. If you can find an official page that says so then ok but until then it’s just a myth. Like Miyamoto said: “Until the time of Donkey Kong, which was the first game I directed, programming and hardware engineers were responsible for game design.”
read more here= http://www.miyamotoshrine.com/theman/interviews/031899.shtml “Miyamoto had his father contact an old friend who ran a toy company. The friends name was Hiroshi Yamauchi. The company was Nintendo”
sandman
You opinion is noted as well ;) Like is said there are the exceptions but as I said and the article said you can see more with people that a different perspective. This believe that programs should design mainly is not true, and for programmers to shun off designers and that they think they are a one man crew does not help. Odds are that many of the programmers here tried to make a game and as you see they did not impress the game industry.
Gcode
I do not think that many non programmers got over board. I worked with programmers and I said thing that they could not do, and it’s not that it is impossible since others say they can do it and other games have done it, but that programmers do not know how to do it. If that is the case then the designer would need to work around it. 2D games are just pictures being controlled to be moved around and put in and out of the screen, which you may disagree but some other programmers see it that way too, as does Miyamoto.
Stimarco
You said it well.
Bad designers make games with no morals and have so much sex and violence is because they can not create anything good. They take low blows like bringing a gun to a fist fight. Many won’t understand it and think its ok but it shows that they have no skill in that area. Ask most to make a proper game they can not they need to use art, sound, sex, and violence to sell their game since they can not reply much on their designing abilities. The game GTA3 for example is considered the best game of all time, but does that mean that the guy is the best designer and the game is
Waverider
Exactly
Dantless
Exactly. In my computer classes I was assisting the teacher since the programmers didn’t get it, and maybe it is like what you said that they might be thinking in one dimension. An artist can think more abstract than a programmer. Also that is true that the people in suits direct how the games will be and push for the lowest denominator. Companies also do not want to take risks since it costs a lot of money to make a game. Programmers that are not in the industry have an opportunity to make something new and all is see are bad clones that make the original 10 times better. If you see game contests you will see that over 90% of the games are not original and not worth playing.
Spoonster
I agree that some people want to do things that are not possible. But many programmers do not push for more innovation. I know people say that many were banging their heads when DOS came out thinking that they could have done it. Some programmers even think that someone like bill gates is an enigma which he did so much.
Anonymous
LOL, did I hit a nerve? Also how come you post as anonymous? lol
Brain upton
The thing is that many here object to a full time designer. I also started off as a programmer and a few in my class went to computer science to try and joining the game industry to design.
Right?
I think that the original poster makes a horrible assumption:
Programmers decide to become designers.
The reality is usually a bit different:
Designers decide to become programmers to get into the game industry in hopes of designing.
Programmers decide to become designers.
The reality is usually a bit different:
Designers decide to become programmers to get into the game industry in hopes of designing.
Depends on what you are designing, Warsong.
If you are designing a statistical game system as with strategy and some elaborate RPGs, then I would have to go with the programmer as being the excellent choice. That fact is, most of us programmers have taken plenty of classes or read books in statistics, probability, and discrete methods.
If you are designing some sort of story-based, adventure, or creative design game, then I would probably agree that a person with more of a creative focus would be better.
Unfortunately, the distinction of programmer has no basis on a classification of creativity. Perhaps there exists some programmers who use the computerized world of discrete values to create their own visions. Certainly there exists a greater amount of freedom on a computer screen than there exists on any canvas or paper. Prose can certainly be powerful in the right mind, but how much more clarity does the display of that world add to the average mind?
I would think that creativity is the ability of an individual to elicit an emotional response from another person through their creations alone. Art is a storehouse of emotions that can be felt by those who choose to experience it.
If you are designing a statistical game system as with strategy and some elaborate RPGs, then I would have to go with the programmer as being the excellent choice. That fact is, most of us programmers have taken plenty of classes or read books in statistics, probability, and discrete methods.
If you are designing some sort of story-based, adventure, or creative design game, then I would probably agree that a person with more of a creative focus would be better.
Unfortunately, the distinction of programmer has no basis on a classification of creativity. Perhaps there exists some programmers who use the computerized world of discrete values to create their own visions. Certainly there exists a greater amount of freedom on a computer screen than there exists on any canvas or paper. Prose can certainly be powerful in the right mind, but how much more clarity does the display of that world add to the average mind?
I would think that creativity is the ability of an individual to elicit an emotional response from another person through their creations alone. Art is a storehouse of emotions that can be felt by those who choose to experience it.
I would posit that anyone who designs games is, by definition, a game designer.
As such the issue is less "programmers being game designers" and more "people assuming that a good programmer will be a good game designer." That's about as true as saying that a technically proficient coder would always make a good Lead Coder, i.e. not very.
"The industry is Doomed" if we continue to allow untalented game designers to soak up publisher funds and take up shelf space.
As such the issue is less "programmers being game designers" and more "people assuming that a good programmer will be a good game designer." That's about as true as saying that a technically proficient coder would always make a good Lead Coder, i.e. not very.
"The industry is Doomed" if we continue to allow untalented game designers to soak up publisher funds and take up shelf space.
The problem is, most people on this site seem to believe that if you can't program, you're a bad game designer. I don't know how many times I've seen someone say "Everyone has ideas" or somesuch. If good ideas are really a dime a dozen, how come the games that come out nowadays mostly don't have any new ideas in them?
Because new is not the same as good, and neither new or good are necessarily the same as commercially viable. Also, opportunities for originality are necessarily inversely proportional to the number of existing games that are released.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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