I've been debating this for quite some time and I've run into some good arguments on both side. It seems to boil down to realism vs. gameplay. Normally I'd err on the side of gameplay, but I'd like to get some other points of view on this. I've come up with a few different systems and would like to hear some points of view on it. 1) Class/Level based skill system. As you gain levels, your skills can go up. This is based upon an 'experience point' system, which I'm trying to avoid. The benefits are that each player is a known quantity in a multi-player game. Your class determines what skills you can develop. Benefits: Everyone knows what a level 8 Warrior can do. You have an easily guessed number of hit points and it would be easy to figure out what you can or can't handle. Penalties: No customization of characters normally possible. Skills held back by class level. 2) Class based skill system. You choose a class and it affects how easily you learn skills. If you're a warrior, then you gain bonuses in heavy and medium armors, all melee weapons and armor-based skills. You take penalties to getting better at magic-based (channeling and divine magics) skills. If you choose a (un)holy knight, then you remove the penalty against the divine magics, but lose a small portion of bonus on part of the armors or weapon skills. Benefits: Allows the player to customize their character to a certain amount, while retaining the core of their class' focus. Not too hard to figure out what the abilities that a level 8 warrior is in this system. Penalties: Characters not as easily quantifiable by class/level, too much customization results in a player being far from what is expected from a normal member of their class. 3) Skill based class/level system. You develop the skills that you want and they determine your level and class (title). Example: You have a 300 swords skill, 200 heavy armor skill, 220 shield skill, 50 divine magic skill, 20 channeling skill, then you'd be considered a level 30 warrior. If you develop your divine magic skills further to 150, then you'd be considered a holy knight with a level of 30. Benefits: Allows a player to customize their character greatly, giving them the abilities that the player wants to develop, giving them any type of play style that they desire. A battle-mage wearing chain mail armor is possible, as is a swashbuckler wearing no more than a leather jerkin, but easily dodging or parrying most attacks. Penalties: Difficult to really quantify the abilities that any player would have normally. Trying to fit a character into a group role would be very difficult without having played with them before. I'm only really considering the second two ways of handling skill/class, but would like to hear any thoughts on all three. While I'm not really considering the first, a lot of ideas pushing that one would obviously influence me to make my system more like that than #2 possibly.

1st, an idea about what a level grind treadmill is,

What forced grouping is about

2nd, an idea about how to tweak a level treadmill by bybridizing with a skill system,

RPG vs MMORPG

Great topic, I was looking for something like that!

1) It's classical, most players got acquainted with it.
2) The most logical and realistic, but characters cannot advance in other specializations
3) Simple and effective, but very difficult to 'classify'

Morrowind has all three system merged, and it's pretty nice.

I suppose #2 and #3 merged is the best solution yet.

Quote:Original post by kaysik

Quote:Original post by Miserable
This is just a consequence of specialisation. Are you suggesting that being a construction worker somehow makes a person inept at dancing, or that being smart automatically makes you incompetent at sports?

hello no - my point was that its what GENERALLY happens in real life. I know a programmer who goes surfing every weekend - you can do whatever you want but mostly people don't. I'm sure there are many fine dancers who do construction work as a day job but if you look at in a general sense I doubt very much that most construction workers would be good dancers. Its not a hard rule, but in general most people I know stick to one general area of interest which is what option 2 is all about. You can do whatever you like but you generally stick to a few core skills.

But with option 2, you are told what those few core skills are. That's just foolish. As you say, a programmer can surf, there's nothing stopping him. So choosing 'programmer' as a class shouldn't make it any harder to exceed at surfing than if you had chosen any other class.

I don't think Morrowind is a perfect model, but their way is a good start. You can choose a class with a list of primary skills, or you can roll your own class with any assortment of primary skills you want.

CM

I'd view it quite differently.

#1) A level-based system is more effective in balancing the grind treadmill and thus keeping the subsribers, but it lacks variety.

#2) A skill based system is less effective in balancing the grind treadmill and balancing powergaming, but it gives room for the variety outside the hack and slash grinding.

#3) So tweaking the level based system and hybridizing with a skill based system will allow variety while effectively keeping the subsribers to be attached to the grind treadmill.

#4) It all boils down to how to correctly tweak the level based system such that it wont lose its effect in balancing the grind treadmill, while allowing other fun factors from a skill-based system to be introduced.