Space sim, everythings dark, except for one side?
I have to agree with wavinator space should be bright and interesting, nothing would be more dull then playing a game in the total blackness of space. After all it is this same reason that space battles in sci-fi movies have sound effects, because no one wants to sit through a 2 hours of utter silience while a battle rages on.
Like most things, it all depends on the implementation. It can be done really well or really badly.
Given people's preference for being able to see what's about to kill them, if you're going to do it this way, you'll have to do it REALLY REALLY well in order to override people's preconceptions and make them think it's cool.
Given people's preference for being able to see what's about to kill them, if you're going to do it this way, you'll have to do it REALLY REALLY well in order to override people's preconceptions and make them think it's cool.
Interesting point made by wavinator about mythology of the times.
This mythology not only applies to lighting, and onboard gravity, but also includes the way spacecraft movement is depicted, in that most of them move in space like winged aircraft fly in the atmosphere (i.e. similar arcs when turning, nose always pointing forward, etc.).
To some extent the depiction of space as boring is also a myth. This myth usually goes along the lines that unless you're near a nebula all you have is a boring uniform distribution of starry pinholes in black space. You just have to look at a starry sky on a clear night from a place where there's no light pollution to see how beautiful space really is, non-uniform, with a concentrated banding of stars and colours provided by milky way. Unfortunately light pollution from towns, cities means that its more difficult to find these viewing places.
One film that attempted a realistic portrayal of space was 2001 A Space Oddysey, including silent clips of the spacecraft. Most of the rest of the films/series have created the mythology as it stands today.
In terms of gameplay 3D space can be boring too, with an awful lot of nothing interspersed with the odd object. To avoid this you also have to think of ways of confining your game space or making it busier than it really is.
As for lighting, who says that your spacecraft has to have big glass windows where you see the real view outside. Apart from the problems of heating, radiation protection, impact strength, solar glare etc that windows introduce, wouldn't cameras with image processing enhancements linked to your spaceship's internal monitor be better? This should keep both the ulta-realists and the eye-candy people happy.
Finally, have a good think about where you want to position the game, is it a serious sim or is it a fun action/arcade game, or is it somewhere in-between.
This mythology not only applies to lighting, and onboard gravity, but also includes the way spacecraft movement is depicted, in that most of them move in space like winged aircraft fly in the atmosphere (i.e. similar arcs when turning, nose always pointing forward, etc.).
To some extent the depiction of space as boring is also a myth. This myth usually goes along the lines that unless you're near a nebula all you have is a boring uniform distribution of starry pinholes in black space. You just have to look at a starry sky on a clear night from a place where there's no light pollution to see how beautiful space really is, non-uniform, with a concentrated banding of stars and colours provided by milky way. Unfortunately light pollution from towns, cities means that its more difficult to find these viewing places.
One film that attempted a realistic portrayal of space was 2001 A Space Oddysey, including silent clips of the spacecraft. Most of the rest of the films/series have created the mythology as it stands today.
In terms of gameplay 3D space can be boring too, with an awful lot of nothing interspersed with the odd object. To avoid this you also have to think of ways of confining your game space or making it busier than it really is.
As for lighting, who says that your spacecraft has to have big glass windows where you see the real view outside. Apart from the problems of heating, radiation protection, impact strength, solar glare etc that windows introduce, wouldn't cameras with image processing enhancements linked to your spaceship's internal monitor be better? This should keep both the ulta-realists and the eye-candy people happy.
Finally, have a good think about where you want to position the game, is it a serious sim or is it a fun action/arcade game, or is it somewhere in-between.
It sounds incredibly cool, I say try it and see if you can get it to work. If it's really terribly uncool to play you can always throw it out. I mean, how much more difficult than for example backface culling can it possibly be, especially if you're gonna have the regular lighting effects anyway?
About the radar thing, it would also be really nice if you have something like proximity detection which shows outlines (but only that) of objects closeby that are otherwise completely black. Maybe in HUD-green or something.
It would be especially good if you could somehow make it a gameplay element, for example hiding in the darkness behind an asteroid could work pretty well.
As for the whole sound discussion, a whole lot of sound from another ship could be got through vibrations in it's hull by simply pointing a laser at it and analysing the reflections. Combine this with the normal comm traffic in a ship and you get quite alot of sound from exploding ships. If you can turn this into a gameplay element it could also be nice, for example something like enforced comm silence.
All in all, if you can make it into a gameplay element, by all means try it, think about what you can do with it. Otherwise, well, conformity (to other products) is a good way to conform to the market.
About the radar thing, it would also be really nice if you have something like proximity detection which shows outlines (but only that) of objects closeby that are otherwise completely black. Maybe in HUD-green or something.
It would be especially good if you could somehow make it a gameplay element, for example hiding in the darkness behind an asteroid could work pretty well.
As for the whole sound discussion, a whole lot of sound from another ship could be got through vibrations in it's hull by simply pointing a laser at it and analysing the reflections. Combine this with the normal comm traffic in a ship and you get quite alot of sound from exploding ships. If you can turn this into a gameplay element it could also be nice, for example something like enforced comm silence.
All in all, if you can make it into a gameplay element, by all means try it, think about what you can do with it. Otherwise, well, conformity (to other products) is a good way to conform to the market.
Having the astroids be black against a black background so they are invisible until shining a light on them would probably not go over well, even if you did have good radar UI's to show where they were.
BUT, having astroids be totally dark from certain sides could be a VERY COOL effect & add some cool immersion & exploration potential to your game. What I would do to make this work is have enough nebulas & starfields activity in the background so you still see the black sillouette (sp?) of the astroids against it. The background could basically be a little lighter than the astroids themselves to set them apart, & you could have some dramatic lighting effects as you fly over massive astroids & travel into their lit areas with eclipsing stars etc.
BUT, having astroids be totally dark from certain sides could be a VERY COOL effect & add some cool immersion & exploration potential to your game. What I would do to make this work is have enough nebulas & starfields activity in the background so you still see the black sillouette (sp?) of the astroids against it. The background could basically be a little lighter than the astroids themselves to set them apart, & you could have some dramatic lighting effects as you fly over massive astroids & travel into their lit areas with eclipsing stars etc.
Not being able to see much actually sounds like a good idea. You would have to rely on instruments in the cockpit to get stuff done. Radars, tracking systems, navigational systems to name a few. Just put a lot of depth into that stuff. Flying a spaceship isn't as simple as just steering with a joystick and adjusting the throttle.
LOL, some really opposing opinions, but no flames? My, my, could this be real? :)
Aha! I got you this time! So it's OK to contradict establish archetypes that are based on reality and the human psyche to challenge a player, but if don't do that with stupid Hollywood cliches?
Now wait a minute mister, which is it? You can't have double standards, can you?
;-)
Indeed, I wholeheartedly agree. Especially the fact that the night sky is not, in fact, black. I have very vivid memories of sleeping outside in the mountains at night and basically not needing any lamptorch, even without the moon. The amount of stars is just... staggering. In town you could actually count the stars in the sky without too much trouble, but in the mountains on a clear night, you really understand people mean when they say there are as many stars in the sky as grains of sand in the desert!
Personally, I have been researching material on ships, and specifically submarines, for some time now. I think it would be just amazing if someone got out there and challenged the stupid Hollywood cliches.
I think it would be great to have a spaceship game where the experience were much more closer to _Das Boot_ (a WWII German submarine movie): claustrophobic, dark, gritty. Or something like _The Abyss_ for instance, which turned the idea on its head and put classic space movie ideas and turn them underwater. If you thought those movies were boring, then you probably wouldn't like that sort of game, but hey, why not cater to a public of connoisseurs, for a change?
As someone else said, just make sure that the realism isn't gratuitous, work out ways of incorporating gameplay elements that are directly related to your aesthetical choices.
I am still trying to find a way to justify gravity, for instance. The Babylon 5 approach is one way to do it that I can agree with, or I believe Ringworld is another, but how would go at it for much smaller scale ships? I don't know you but I think that a "gravity generator carpet" doesn't really fit with the dark gritty hard science approach... (anyone has any idea, BTW?)
Take the problem of windows. The only reason you wanna have windows in a spaceship is if you want to have them for _dramatic_ reason.
Is there anything cooler than the scene where the bad guy's submarine hull starts to slowly break as it plunges into the depth (in _The Abyss_), to finally implode, releasing a big explosion of oxygen?
But if you think about it, "force field" windows are like, the stupidest thing in the world: it drains energy that could be spent elsewhere, like on a proper energy shield for a start. You don't need clear material to actually see outside, just think of photocells on the outside layers (hello, we have CCDs chipsets now, so think of their size in the future...) coupled to LCD like cells on the inside, et voila! you have a one way mirror, that not only gives you a good picture, but you get as much meters of armored material between the outside and the inside, and you can have a widened spectrum reception, too! Just have receptors that capture not just light but other wavelengths as well...
And that's just when you start thinking about it.
Don't get me started about "silent space". That's just plain lazy thinking. The only reason you would _hear_ the silence of space is if you _were_ in space, without any protection. That's right, you'd have explosed already. But I am pretty sure in your space suit you'd have quite a few noises present. Think breathing and heart pounding like in Operation Flashpoint, how cool was that!? Add to that intercom noises, HUD warnings (like your suit in HalfLife). Then add all the noises of your own ship, its engines running, its weapons firing...
And then add this :
BTW that, sir, is going straight into the "incredibly cool idea, how come I didn't think of it earlier" part of my brain! :-)
Anyway, gotta go, but for the first time in years, I will say it: don't listen to Wavinator!
Quote: wavinator
I think this applies here as well. We've grown up with Star Wars, Star Trek and Babylon 5, which are very bright. That's the mythology of the times.
Aha! I got you this time! So it's OK to contradict establish archetypes that are based on reality and the human psyche to challenge a player, but if don't do that with stupid Hollywood cliches?
Now wait a minute mister, which is it? You can't have double standards, can you?
;-)
Quote: abstractworlds
To some extent the depiction of space as boring is also a myth
Indeed, I wholeheartedly agree. Especially the fact that the night sky is not, in fact, black. I have very vivid memories of sleeping outside in the mountains at night and basically not needing any lamptorch, even without the moon. The amount of stars is just... staggering. In town you could actually count the stars in the sky without too much trouble, but in the mountains on a clear night, you really understand people mean when they say there are as many stars in the sky as grains of sand in the desert!
Personally, I have been researching material on ships, and specifically submarines, for some time now. I think it would be just amazing if someone got out there and challenged the stupid Hollywood cliches.
I think it would be great to have a spaceship game where the experience were much more closer to _Das Boot_ (a WWII German submarine movie): claustrophobic, dark, gritty. Or something like _The Abyss_ for instance, which turned the idea on its head and put classic space movie ideas and turn them underwater. If you thought those movies were boring, then you probably wouldn't like that sort of game, but hey, why not cater to a public of connoisseurs, for a change?
As someone else said, just make sure that the realism isn't gratuitous, work out ways of incorporating gameplay elements that are directly related to your aesthetical choices.
I am still trying to find a way to justify gravity, for instance. The Babylon 5 approach is one way to do it that I can agree with, or I believe Ringworld is another, but how would go at it for much smaller scale ships? I don't know you but I think that a "gravity generator carpet" doesn't really fit with the dark gritty hard science approach... (anyone has any idea, BTW?)
Take the problem of windows. The only reason you wanna have windows in a spaceship is if you want to have them for _dramatic_ reason.
Is there anything cooler than the scene where the bad guy's submarine hull starts to slowly break as it plunges into the depth (in _The Abyss_), to finally implode, releasing a big explosion of oxygen?
But if you think about it, "force field" windows are like, the stupidest thing in the world: it drains energy that could be spent elsewhere, like on a proper energy shield for a start. You don't need clear material to actually see outside, just think of photocells on the outside layers (hello, we have CCDs chipsets now, so think of their size in the future...) coupled to LCD like cells on the inside, et voila! you have a one way mirror, that not only gives you a good picture, but you get as much meters of armored material between the outside and the inside, and you can have a widened spectrum reception, too! Just have receptors that capture not just light but other wavelengths as well...
And that's just when you start thinking about it.
Don't get me started about "silent space". That's just plain lazy thinking. The only reason you would _hear_ the silence of space is if you _were_ in space, without any protection. That's right, you'd have explosed already. But I am pretty sure in your space suit you'd have quite a few noises present. Think breathing and heart pounding like in Operation Flashpoint, how cool was that!? Add to that intercom noises, HUD warnings (like your suit in HalfLife). Then add all the noises of your own ship, its engines running, its weapons firing...
And then add this :
Quote: Horizon
As for the whole sound discussion, a whole lot of sound from another ship could be got through vibrations in it's hull by simply pointing a laser at it and analysing the reflections.
BTW that, sir, is going straight into the "incredibly cool idea, how come I didn't think of it earlier" part of my brain! :-)
Anyway, gotta go, but for the first time in years, I will say it: don't listen to Wavinator!
ahw: I like the way you think. :D
There are games like Silent Hunter 2, where on realistic settings you can't see outside your sub (or anything for that matter unless you use your miniscule periscope), unless you surface your ship and climb out to have a look. I have yet to play a serious space simulation (or simulation-esk) game that depicts that kind of atmosphere and tension in space.
The scenes in Das Boot show it extremely well, they have no view ports, going on silent running so the destroyers can't find them, sitting in the dark cramped spaces waiting fearfuly. I could see a spaceship hiding in an asteroid field with minimal power, using the debris to interfere with enemy sensors and evade them. Not to mention possible distractions to draw them away, such as destroying an asteroid a fair way away from you to draw their attention from your position.
I would love to see a game that doesn't go by the obvious hollywood cliche's of brightly lit space, and actually dare to add some tension and cat & mouse gameplay.
There are games like Silent Hunter 2, where on realistic settings you can't see outside your sub (or anything for that matter unless you use your miniscule periscope), unless you surface your ship and climb out to have a look. I have yet to play a serious space simulation (or simulation-esk) game that depicts that kind of atmosphere and tension in space.
The scenes in Das Boot show it extremely well, they have no view ports, going on silent running so the destroyers can't find them, sitting in the dark cramped spaces waiting fearfuly. I could see a spaceship hiding in an asteroid field with minimal power, using the debris to interfere with enemy sensors and evade them. Not to mention possible distractions to draw them away, such as destroying an asteroid a fair way away from you to draw their attention from your position.
I would love to see a game that doesn't go by the obvious hollywood cliche's of brightly lit space, and actually dare to add some tension and cat & mouse gameplay.
Indeed :-)
And before anyone says "but who would want to play a pseudo realistic game where you spend your time hiding in dark in fear of getting spotted?" let me say "First Person Sneaker"!
And before anyone says "but who would want to play a pseudo realistic game where you spend your time hiding in dark in fear of getting spotted?" let me say "First Person Sneaker"!
I think it would be cool to have realistic lighting. Maybe even throw in some complications if you look directly at the sun.
But it doesnt matter if the game blows.
For example, Earth and Beyond was well lit and unrealistic (explosions in space, etc).
But it blew ass. thatgame was terrible.
the bright effects didnt create a fun experience.
So wichever way you go, make sure that the GAME comes first. Focus on making it fun. Graphics and presentation can come later.
But it doesnt matter if the game blows.
For example, Earth and Beyond was well lit and unrealistic (explosions in space, etc).
But it blew ass. thatgame was terrible.
the bright effects didnt create a fun experience.
So wichever way you go, make sure that the GAME comes first. Focus on making it fun. Graphics and presentation can come later.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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