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zergdeath1

I feel like I am cheating.

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When I use SDL. When i first started programming I thought I would be doing a lot more of the put pixel in this color here and this color here kinda stuff. But with SDL all I have to do is load in the image and display it. I know it would take me forever to actually learn how to display a pixel by pixel thing for even a game like pong. Sorry If this is off topic, I just feel like I am using a gamemaker almost. [Edited by - zergdeath1 on December 1, 2004 8:45:52 PM]

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DirectX and OGL also provide functions that allow you to load in images - it's quite inefficient to manually colour individual pixels unless you really need to for some reason. Concentrate on designing a great game, it doesn't really matter how it's created. In short: you're not cheating, you're simply making use of the tools available to you.

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Original post by zergdeath1
When I use SDL. When i first started programming I thought I would be doing a lot more of the put pixel in this color here and this color here kinda stuff. But with SDL all I have to do is load in the image and display it. I know it would take me forever to actually learn how to display a pixel by pixel thing for even a game like pong. Sorry If this is off topic, I just feel like I am using a gamemaker almost.
This I don't understand.

You should be happy. You don't have to know how to blit images to the screen, and set up video modes.

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When you have the time to learn how the drawing is done internally, do attempt to study it. It is always good to understand what's going on "under the hood" even if you wouldn't ever have to touch the core.

Meanwhile, continue what you're doing! It's called "productivity", and in the field of game development, it's considered somewhat beneficial [grin]

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Original post by waterwizard
stop cheating, you cheater.


Not all of us want to write machine code directly when making games. My hat's off to you, if you do [wink]

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No, Im just saying that, we as programmers (notice how I try to include my self with the higher level people), generaly look down on those who use game makers. So basically we look down on them becuase they use something someone else made, and are taking the easy way, making somtimes decent games, and claiming that they "programed it". But we/I use SDL whitch is a library made by some one else, basically for games. So I feel that I am using a toned down version of a game maker. Sorry If I included you in a group you dont want to be in, took up you time, or abused the use of commas. But this has been bugging me.

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I don't consider people who use game-makers to be cheaters. They are however, certainly subjecting themselves to restrictions. To not use the tools available to us (various APIs and Libraries) would be nothing short of stupid.

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indeed, zergdeath1, heed the wisdom above. and remember, when you make a game, while SDL may load the image, you still have to provide the image it loads [smile], along with :
* SDL initialization code (it doesn't initialize itself, you know)
* all media (graphics, audio, ect) for your game
* the game code
* animation code
* collision code/physics engine
* graphics code (sdl will flip the buffers, but it won't render
things just for you)
* timer code
* gui code
* ect ..
* a recycle bin, for when you have to rewrite it all again [grin]
all of which is done without a gamemaker. so perk up.

cheers.

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Original post by zergdeath1
Sorry If this is off topic, I just feel like I am using a gamemaker almost.
Bah, it's silly to think that way.

Do you think Einstein or Stephen Hawking cheated because they didn't start from scrach? Do you think valve cheated because they didn't write their own physics engine? Prolly not.

Every level of indirection comes with a price. The tradeoff is time vs. flexibility. A Gamemaker will allow you to create a game in a relitively quick time period, although it'll severely restrict you to a certan game style. Something like SDL offers less restriction but it requires more work to get anything done. Straight ASM gives you the ultimate power & control, but it'll take a long ass time to get anything workable.

If you truely don't like programming, than use a gamemaker and create your game. There's nothing wrong with that. Only a handfull of AAA titles were created using a gamemaker, but very few gamedev.net members have created a game that was close to sellable.

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I always feel like cheating when I use a compiler. Actually, almost every time I code, I make full use of anything available to me that might save development time by providing things I would otherwise need to implement. Computer programming is all about cheating: that's why people alway make a fuss about code reusal, that so many "methods" for increasing productivity appear. Nobody wants to reinvent anything that has already been done.

Always look at programmers this way: if a coder decides not to use a feature only because he can do the same thing by hand, or if he brags about how much he DID work reimplementing things that were already there, he might not have the best programmer mentality. The one that brags about how little code he had to write for a project, or how he made a clever use of existent features to ease his work, is the one to admire.

Ideally, given a project, a good programmer should always look for an existing solution before even thinking of his own. Or so I believe.

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with your logic we should all write our games with 1's and 0's.

IMO, i like to have absolute full control of my game / program. C++ and libraries like SDL and OpenGL give me complete control over everything i need, this is as low level as i'd like to get. low enough to push around instructions and memory all i want but high enough so that i dont have to write machine or per pixel code myself.

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Although it is good to learn how things work, don't kid yourself thinking that using an API is anywhere near using programs like gamemaker(not that I disrespect people that use them).

Let's take for example OpenGL. When you're starting, you think that you just follow the rules and OpenGL takes care of everything. You just define the object geometry, and all you have to do is turn on lighting and texturing, and magic happens.

While this is true for simple apps, when you get more advanced and understand things a little better(some knowledge of low-level procedures like rasterizing or texturing wouldn't hurt) you'll see that OpenGL is just an interface between you and the graphics card: rules become much more loose, you must be creative. For advanced lighting and shadowing for example, most work is up to you, OpenGL just offers some necessary resources(shading languages, interpolators, stencil buffers, z-testing and such).

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Original post by zergdeath1
No, Im just saying that, we as programmers (notice how I try to include my self with the higher level people), generaly look down on those who use game makers.

I don't. I'll only look down on someone who made a really crappy game. And if he's a noob then not even then.
Quote:
Original post by zergdeath1So basically we look down on them becuase they use something someone else made, and are taking the easy way, making somtimes decent games, and claiming that they "programed it". But we/I use SDL whitch is a library made by some one else, basically for games.

Like someone else said, you are also using a compiler, probably soom apps to make your graphics, etc. That's not cheating, it's called using a tool. And unless you program with a hex editor directly in machine code, you'll always be using a tool.

shmoove

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Original post by shmoove
Quote:
Original post by zergdeath1
No, Im just saying that, we as programmers (notice how I try to include my self with the higher level people), generaly look down on those who use game makers.

I don't. I'll only look down on someone who made a really crappy game. And if he's a noob then not even then.
Quote:
Original post by zergdeath1So basically we look down on them becuase they use something someone else made, and are taking the easy way, making somtimes decent games, and claiming that they "programed it". But we/I use SDL whitch is a library made by some one else, basically for games.

Like someone else said, you are also using a compiler, probably soom apps to make your graphics, etc. That's not cheating, it's called using a tool. And unless you program with a hex editor directly in machine code, you'll always be using a tool.

shmoove


Isn't the hex editor a tool?

(rhetorical [smile])

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Programming is all about building on something else. There are some arrogant individuals that look down on people whom use different languages or whatever - thing is it's all a matter of taste. Languages are just tools, and different tools can be used to make the same end result.

Where would you stop? Hundreds of people have worked on different technology putting in thousands of hours just so you don't have to do something from scratch... meaning you can spend more time on designing and making your game great; and less time worrying about details.

People are often better drivers if they understand some things about how a car works, but that doesn't mean they need to build one themselves. Think "Pimp my ride" they start off with something basic - it may even seem a bit constraining, and make something unique out of it... with varying degrees of engineering. They never usually touch the framework. Things like DirectX, SDL, whatever just provide a framework to enable you to make something special.

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Ok I get the point. Thx I just couldn't shake the feeling. And when I said we look down on gamemakers. I didn't mean that we were superior, but that we would perfer that they took the time to learn the right way, and not clog up boards.(ya I know that doesn't really happen at gamedev.)

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Original post by zergdeath1
No, Im just saying that, we as programmers (notice how I try to include my self with the higher level people), generaly look down on those who use game makers.

Software engineers > programmers > game maker people.
Programmers look down upon people who use someone else's libraries. Software engineers look up to people who use the best tool for the job.

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Sometimes, game makers are a good thing for some people, such as who just would like to make games quickly, and don't have the time or resources to program their game. It's not practical for them to spend money on books and stuff and compilers to learn how to actually program their games, going the next step up. For most of us using c++, c, vb, etc. we don't have the time to program it in asm, and it is not practical, except in very few cases, in which optimization can be made.

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Original post by zergdeath1
When I use SDL. When i first started programming I thought I would be doing a lot more of the put pixel in this color here and this color here kinda stuff. But with SDL all I have to do is load in the image and display it. I know it would take me forever to actually learn how to display a pixel by pixel thing for even a game like pong. Sorry If this is off topic, I just feel like I am using a gamemaker almost.


Well if you are really interested then try Mode13h.It give you a pointer to video card memory and a screen of 320x200 with 256 colors and the rest is up to you.There is a lot to learn and the much of it is dos related and outdated.But it sure gives you a nice background where you can learn to manually try out various algorithms and stuff like image loading.

It's fun too, I did it with Mode13h and am much better off for it.

Search on google and if you dont find anything useful say so and I will give you some links

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Original post by zergdeath1
When I use SDL. When i first started programming I thought I would be doing a lot more of the put pixel in this color here and this color here kinda stuff. But with SDL all I have to do is load in the image and display it. I know it would take me forever to actually learn how to display a pixel by pixel thing for even a game like pong. Sorry If this is off topic, I just feel like I am using a gamemaker almost.

This is no more cheating than using a wrench instead of your fingers to tighten a lug nut would be. You must feel terrible pangs of guilt every time you use a microwave oven. ;)

But honestly, making use of the tools you have is smart. Later on, when you have time, you can go back and revisit the tools you used to understand how they work under the hood. Then you can go and write your own better and niftier versions. You never would've had the time to go back and write a niftier version if the first version hadn't been there, so this constitutes a productivity boost. Awesome!

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Most people (especially now) start with an API that abstracts most of the really tedius things into simple Load(), Draw() commands. Your not cheating, you've just choosen not to focus on file types right now.

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Original post by Onemind
Most people (especially now) start with an API that abstracts most of the really tedius things into simple Load(), Draw() commands. Your not cheating, you've just choosen not to focus on file types right now.


Well that a point too.Some things work for some and other things work for others

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