A Virtual Village
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Quote:Original post by Sta7ic
This brings up the whole detail that some occupations step on each other's toes. A smith can fill in for a leathercrafter or an armourer, in a pinch. A lumberjack may be called on to work his wood as well, rather than exporting logs twenty miles down the road.
So do we work off of strict occupations, occupational skills (a level X worker is rated Y in these skills...), or loose skills (Morrowind/EVE/AC)? Or do we shelve this question for someone who's building a design for this concept?
I'd vote for transfer of occupations and cross training for a very simple reason: Some of these NPCs are going to die. Be it the werewolf in the forest or that unfortunate fishing accident or the ever murderous player, when an NPC dies it will likely gum up some of the interdependencies. I don't think you want the whole village migrating or stalling just because the blacksmith got axed.
Quote:Original post by Wavinator
I'd vote for transfer of occupations and cross training for a very simple reason: Some of these NPCs are going to die. Be it the werewolf in the forest or that unfortunate fishing accident or the ever murderous player, when an NPC dies it will likely gum up some of the interdependencies. I don't think you want the whole village migrating or stalling just because the blacksmith got axed.
Which brings up another "class" that hasn't been mentioned, and I'm not sure how much attention they are ever given in MMORPGs (I've only played two. Just to note, the old text based MMORPG Gemstone III did have some kind of a "Living Village", even if it may have been easier to do because of the text based structure).
I'm rambling, but how about Children? I don't remember ever seeing children in Asheron's Call, much less running around the village playing with each other on nice days. Children are definately part of what makes any village "alive" (It does take a village, after all). The Blacksmith's son may be learning the trade from his father, and in the case of his death might even take over for him. Also, all of the possible "Family Dynamics" that can be developed between members of a family could be much more immersive than the more business type relationships we have so far.
Now that's a good point, there are no children in almost any RPG that I've seen... The last two cases that I remember were in Deus Ex and Fallout. There's also Legend of Zelda, but ... that doesn't quite count, I think, it's more of an adventure game. Kids do add a definite sense of believability to a game world, I agree.
I think the best way to handle occupations that are or are not available in a town is by tracking the needs and abilities of an entire village as a larger actor. Much like "Bob needs an axe", you'd get "Tristram need a demon hunter and a church janitor". When a given smith with a good stock but little work sees/hears that another village needs a blacksmith and/or a lot of tools (a need that a blacksmith provides), they move into town in their cart w/ tools, an anvil, stock metal, coal, and firebrick for a forge, and start setting up shop.
Thus, suppliers would seek places that need/have a high demand for their supplies, and gatherers would go places where natural resources are plentiful (in the "supply / depletion rate" sense) and some global need exists.
(new actor for the list: Community)
But at the same time of having a large enough world that people transfer around, in a small closed system, or to encourage vermilitude, having NPCs acquire and improve occupational skills would be crucial. Apprentices, Journeymen, Masters would all be moving around, with a reputation to boot, and it could be big news when someone is certified of their new rank.
Or a sufficient number of people could wander off somewhere new, start building a new village, and either teach themselves or their children how to do the tasks to keep the new village alive.
Family dynamics are a neat idea, but I can't think of anything to tag onto the idea. A good way to add spice, though, to start chatting with someone in the bar, and to hear how a couple is looking for somewhere to move to make soap, or needs a new bed for their growing daughter, or has relatives over for a few days.
The really scary thing is when you stop to consider just how much flavor a sufficiently complicated system can dynamically generate.
What about holidays and other big big occasions? Or local rumors and mythology?
(how much detail is too much detail?)
I think the best way to handle occupations that are or are not available in a town is by tracking the needs and abilities of an entire village as a larger actor. Much like "Bob needs an axe", you'd get "Tristram need a demon hunter and a church janitor". When a given smith with a good stock but little work sees/hears that another village needs a blacksmith and/or a lot of tools (a need that a blacksmith provides), they move into town in their cart w/ tools, an anvil, stock metal, coal, and firebrick for a forge, and start setting up shop.
Thus, suppliers would seek places that need/have a high demand for their supplies, and gatherers would go places where natural resources are plentiful (in the "supply / depletion rate" sense) and some global need exists.
(new actor for the list: Community)
But at the same time of having a large enough world that people transfer around, in a small closed system, or to encourage vermilitude, having NPCs acquire and improve occupational skills would be crucial. Apprentices, Journeymen, Masters would all be moving around, with a reputation to boot, and it could be big news when someone is certified of their new rank.
Or a sufficient number of people could wander off somewhere new, start building a new village, and either teach themselves or their children how to do the tasks to keep the new village alive.
Family dynamics are a neat idea, but I can't think of anything to tag onto the idea. A good way to add spice, though, to start chatting with someone in the bar, and to hear how a couple is looking for somewhere to move to make soap, or needs a new bed for their growing daughter, or has relatives over for a few days.
The really scary thing is when you stop to consider just how much flavor a sufficiently complicated system can dynamically generate.
What about holidays and other big big occasions? Or local rumors and mythology?
(how much detail is too much detail?)
Don't forget about women; your village won't last too long without them. I would make some occupation descriptions for them, but I don't think the current structure fits the sorts of jobs they did in the Middle Ages very well. For example, consider a house wife (which is what pretty much all of them above a certain age should be in the village, I think). She needs a husband, but he isn't really a commoditie, and she doesn't use him up. I think marriage deserves some kind of new data structure specifically designed to handle it. She also produces children, but those aren't commodities, and she doesn't sell them to anyone (hopefully). She teaches her children things, but I don't think it makes much sense to have something like
Needs: ...
[Ignorant children]
...
Produces: ...
[Educated children]
...
since the teaching takes years, the children aren't being bought and sold, they aren't commodities, they are also being taught by at least one other person (their father plus a master of a trade, who might also be their father), etc. She cooks, but she isn't really a cook, because she probably basically just cooks for her family, and she does many other jobs as well. I could go on, but I think you get the point. The occupation system doesn't describe a wife in the Middle Ages very well. I guess we could just ignore married women, but that's not very realistic or complete.
From the above and the fact that similar issues exist for children, I think we should take a little more time to plan out the basic structure of the village before we move onto trying to think about programming or AI. Just my two cents.
Needs: ...
[Ignorant children]
...
Produces: ...
[Educated children]
...
since the teaching takes years, the children aren't being bought and sold, they aren't commodities, they are also being taught by at least one other person (their father plus a master of a trade, who might also be their father), etc. She cooks, but she isn't really a cook, because she probably basically just cooks for her family, and she does many other jobs as well. I could go on, but I think you get the point. The occupation system doesn't describe a wife in the Middle Ages very well. I guess we could just ignore married women, but that's not very realistic or complete.
From the above and the fact that similar issues exist for children, I think we should take a little more time to plan out the basic structure of the village before we move onto trying to think about programming or AI. Just my two cents.
Wellllll.... raising and teaching children begs a question of scope and scale. How long is it going this virtual world going to last? Days, weeks, months, years, decades? It'd be newsworthy to have a world simulation that believably has actors who grow from children to parents to their old age, gaining experiences, habits, reputation, a spouse, religion, etc... but how far is this experiment going to run?
I agree that the need-based occupational structure does *not* support family structures in the least. It doesn't support honest artisans or other service providers very effectively, either: how would you measure demand for a guitar player? How would an innkeeper know where to set up shop, or get the capital to build or expand an inn?
I've been trying to avoid gender roles and whatnot, but I agree that there's a point at which you have to reflect and consider the fact that the point of forming communities was to make it easier to live, work, socialize, bear, and raise children. Although at this rate, we're going to need to start calling in those familiar with sociology, psychology, and theology.
I agree that the need-based occupational structure does *not* support family structures in the least. It doesn't support honest artisans or other service providers very effectively, either: how would you measure demand for a guitar player? How would an innkeeper know where to set up shop, or get the capital to build or expand an inn?
I've been trying to avoid gender roles and whatnot, but I agree that there's a point at which you have to reflect and consider the fact that the point of forming communities was to make it easier to live, work, socialize, bear, and raise children. Although at this rate, we're going to need to start calling in those familiar with sociology, psychology, and theology.
I don't think the important question is how long the game will run, but how long a community will go without intervention from content designers updating everything to change the community. Thats why the AI probably doesn't need to deal with children or people Learning or Ageing, because the content designers can just come through and update the village. Maybe just have a small team go through a town a week and update the character dynamics, maybe add some events like the Baker being in an argument with his wife and sleeping at the shop, that kind of thing.
The AI need only handle the routine and day to day occurances, not anything that happens over months or years. At least, that is the way I see it. It helps keep the AI practical and also routinely inject life into the village.
The AI need only handle the routine and day to day occurances, not anything that happens over months or years. At least, that is the way I see it. It helps keep the AI practical and also routinely inject life into the village.
Quote:Original post by Wavinator
I'd vote for transfer of occupations and cross training for a very simple reason: Some of these NPCs are going to die. Be it the werewolf in the forest or that unfortunate fishing accident or the ever murderous player, when an NPC dies it will likely gum up some of the interdependencies. I don't think you want the whole village migrating or stalling just because the blacksmith got axed.
I think that is an excellent area to explore during the design and development espically from the AI side of things. How does the village cope with the loss of a vital industry or commodity? What if the blacksmith dies and there are no other blacksmiths? If we use skills(which I have just added to the structure) then it may be possible for someone to replace him, if they either have some or all of the assiociated skills or are willing to learn them. This could very well mean hard times for the village as the blacksmith in training has to learn through trail and error, meaning low quality goods and shoddy repair work.
The other side to this his career changing due to rules of supply and demand, when agent has a low demand for their goods, then what do they do? Move else where? or Train for a new career in high demand?
Quote:Original post by mumpo
Don't forget about women; your village won't last too long without them. I would make some occupation descriptions for them, but I don't think the current structure fits the sorts of jobs they did in the Middle Ages very well. For example, consider a house wife (which is what pretty much all of them above a certain age should be in the village, I think). She needs a husband, but he isn't really a commoditie, and she doesn't use him up. I think marriage deserves some kind of new data structure specifically designed to handle it. She also produces children, but those aren't commodities, and she doesn't sell them to anyone (hopefully). She teaches her children things, but I don't think it makes much sense to have something like
Needs: ...
[Ignorant children]
...
Produces: ...
[Educated children]
...
since the teaching takes years, the children aren't being bought and sold, they aren't commodities, they are also being taught by at least one other person (their father plus a master of a trade, who might also be their father), etc. She cooks, but she isn't really a cook, because she probably basically just cooks for her family, and she does many other jobs as well. I could go on, but I think you get the point. The occupation system doesn't describe a wife in the Middle Ages very well. I guess we could just ignore married women, but that's not very realistic or complete.
From the above and the fact that similar issues exist for children, I think we should take a little more time to plan out the basic structure of the village before we move onto trying to think about programming or AI. Just my two cents.
Not everything is defined by the occupation structure, only occupations :)
A family would be a structure in the social dynamic model, while occupations are a structure in the economic dynamic model.
Quote:Original post by Sta7ic
Wellllll.... raising and teaching children begs a question of scope and scale. How long is it going this virtual world going to last? Days, weeks, months, years, decades? It'd be newsworthy to have a world simulation that believably has actors who grow from children to parents to their old age, gaining experiences, habits, reputation, a spouse, religion, etc... but how far is this experiment going to run?
I agree that the need-based occupational structure does *not* support family structures in the least. It doesn't support honest artisans or other service providers very effectively, either: how would you measure demand for a guitar player? How would an innkeeper know where to set up shop, or get the capital to build or expand an inn?
I've been trying to avoid gender roles and whatnot, but I agree that there's a point at which you have to reflect and consider the fact that the point of forming communities was to make it easier to live, work, socialize, bear, and raise children. Although at this rate, we're going to need to start calling in those familiar with sociology, psychology, and theology.
How long will the village last? Depends on how well we designed and implemented the AI. If its sustainable long enough to allow families and children we can defently add the functionality but all that shoul come at a later date. Right now we should focus on making sure that the village doesn't collapase because eveyone has become Chefs and no one is doing anything else.
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