Drama gameplay adaptation?

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20 comments, last by Madster 19 years, 3 months ago
Quote:Original post by Madster

Also, about random events, each interaction could have an interrupt point where the dice are thrown to see if you're "caught", and if you are, cue to the interruption scene."friend of the guy you're trying to convince to trust you walks in the club and sees you while you're sweet-talking his sister... the horror! he dashes out."


The whole concept i came up with for your game would be the backbone of the game. Also, I think that concept is really versatile. Since you're going for a definite "Soap Opera" style, I really like your idea of 'Interuptions'. I like that there ciould be a wedding and an unrealistic event such as Joe throwing the back doors open and rushing in yelling "NO! MELISSA! I LOVE YOU!". Although thats unlikely to happen in real life, it would happen in a soap opera. Or, if two people are talking, the female would reveal that she is pregnant and doesnt know who the dad is, but she still loves this guy shes talking to.

If you could ever get the resources to put together a game on this scale, I woudlnt mind contributing more ideas or examples. Itd be a pretty interesting game to play. You'd just have to keep in mind the idea that if its not done right, the game would feel too much like a choose your own adventure book and ultimately become just an advanced version of Night Trap or Psychic Detective. While developing a game like this, you'll have to think of l0ts of ways to fight that.
Im losing the popularity contest. $rating --;
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Quote:Original post by Madster
About adventure-type text typing: Its just too difficult.
the whole conversational AI is a horrendously complex problem, and better left alone for any decent timeframe (though fair game for research).


Now THERE's an idea for my master's thesis =D
Quote:Original post by Garmichael
You'd just have to keep in mind the idea that if its not done right, the game would feel too much like a choose your own adventure book and ultimately become just an advanced version of Night Trap or Psychic Detective. While developing a game like this, you'll have to think of l0ts of ways to fight that.


I was just thinking about that... with premade trees and interruption cues, the sequences would be identical every time they run. The only thing that would be constantly changing is what each character knows and how they(secondaries only) feel about you. also there's the environments, which would probably be dictated by the interaction tree (take someone to a club, for example, and then go and do clubby things).

I usually work with counterexamples, so if i can reduce the whole thing to video segments, then something aint right. any ideas about how to make it more varied? for one, the interruptions could be by any secondary, and reaction would depend on allegiance... so that would make it more dynamic... but still there's something missing.

btw the difference with night trap is that now you can pack a bajillion hours of decent quality fullscreen video on a single disc =D
Working on a fully self-funded project
Cecropia Tries Game, 2D Animation 'Interactive Film' Hybrid
Quote:"All the artwork in the game is hand drawn animation, there are no computer generated images. It's something we could've done with CGI, just as animated films are being done in CGI, or less and less in 2D. But we chose the hand-drawn look because what's important to us is the personality of the characters; the emotions, and something that's called in the industry, which we didn't know before we started this project, personality animation. Personality animation is the kind of animation where you can tell what's going on in the character's head from their facial expression and their body language and that kind of thing. You can really read their emotions from the artwork. When we started this project, and we continue to feel this way, that the very bleeding edge of CGI is only just starting to approach what 2D animators have been doing for decades, in terms of personality animation. So we're using 2D animation, because that's what does personality animation the best."

...

"...Principle number two, we are taking the approach, and this is just our choice, of trying to synthesize storytelling and gaming. Principle number two is: as much as possible, we want the stories to be the kinds of stories that appeal to mass-market audiences, and we want as much as possible for the action of the games, or the game part of the product to be central and germane to the story. So to me if you take those two things together, the interesting kinds of stories that the mass-market is interested in are stories about characters, about relationships, about people. And if you're going to have the action of the game be central and germane to that kind of story, the action of the game has to be about characters, relationships, emotions, people and that kind of thing."

...

Oddly, the art released so far for Cecropia's game end up reminding some observers of classic LucasArts-style adventure gaming. Khudari is keen to point out the differences, however. He expounds: "We've got a lot of similarities with a lot of different things. The structure of our games is not the structure of an adventure game. An adventure game, broadly speaking, is a game about an environment you explore, whether it's a physical environment or a logical environment, and there's a network of places that you can go, and you have some control over what direction you want to go, and initially it's limited by gates, essentially, and those gates get opened by unlocking puzzles, typically logical puzzles, and in that sense our game is not an adventure game. It doesn't have that structure. Our structure has much more in common with Donkey Kong than it does with that. It's much more like an action game, where you are in direct control over a character, immediate control over a character, so you're not making choices from a menu, taking objects from one place to another, you're not solving logical puzzles. You are controlling the actions of a character, controlling it directly with the interface."
Sorry for the massive excerpts, but I think the material is pertinent. Reading between the lines, it would appear that Cecropia is intending to have users "play the character's physical and emotional responses," to which NPCs will respond as well. One interesting thing is that they claim that they are eschewing the "list/menu of interactions" interface style popularized by LucasArts.

I'm not adding much, am I? I'll shut up now.
Honestly I would hide how the NPC's feel towards you (BTW, i believe the conditional variables should be stored in the NPC, not the player) should be displayed only through behavioral/verbal clues, no omnipresent display of any kind. You could also have various other variables such as shyness, perception, and sarcasm to add to each npc indidualy. It is then up to the player to determine alot of this for themselves. Figure out the needs/wants of the individual NPC's to increase a fondness so to speak. As for your end goal? KILL JOHNS BABY!
The nature of text interaction is complicated, as has been observed above. How about an "emotive conversation" system? Rather than trying to build huge dialog trees or parse technology, the user can specify inquiry, interrogation, hurt, rejection, anger, empathy, indignation, curiosity, shock, non-platonic interest, seduction... By eliminating the requirement of parsing or generating natural language conversation (you could use a Simlish-like "language" to convey the emotional responses), an immense range of expressiveness can be attained.

Of course, this limits the ability to further the narrative through dialog, which is a significant disadvantage.

Just throwing it out there.
I dont see why you coudlnt build a system based on the emotion idea, but have more complex conversation.
I mean, we already decided that there would bean array of personality traits (sarcasm, humor, etc). Mix that with emotions, and you have the core foundation of what people structure a sentence around.

You could have a pretty big list of phrases the characters can say. Each phrase would have a value of "Sarcasm", "Anger", etc etc. depending on how high of a stat the character has for each trait, they would get a different list of things to say. If more than one phrase matches up, have a random generator decide which one they choose.

Also, you could 'teach' the AI basic sentence structure. Suppose theres a box in the corner. The character could decide to start a conversation about it in any number of ways. "Hey, look at that box".. "Where did that box come from?".. "Sit on that box". the character would need an object to structure the sentence on, and a purpose to say the sentence.

I dont know. If you're going to make such complex characters, making a complex dialog system only seems natural. But still: Who's got the time to do all this?
Im losing the popularity contest. $rating --;
Quote:Original post by Oluseyi
it would appear that Cecropia is intending to have users "play the character's physical and emotional responses," to which NPCs will respond as well. One interesting thing is that they claim that they are eschewing the "list/menu of interactions" interface style popularized by LucasArts.


well i'll be. Luckily for me there are thousands of ways of doing the same thing =)

Quote:Honestly I would hide how the NPC's feel towards you (BTW, i believe the conditional variables should be stored in the NPC, not the player) should be displayed only through behavioral/verbal clues, no omnipresent display of any kind. You could also have various other variables such as shyness, perception, and sarcasm to add to each npc indidualy. It is then up to the player to determine alot of this for themselves. Figure out the needs/wants of the individual NPC's to increase a fondness so to speak. As for your end goal? KILL JOHNS BABY!

and claim your rightful cut of the family business!
*ahem* i mean, yeah, no filler up bars hovering on characters heads or nothing like that. Definitely. However, including more variables in an already simple interaction system is probably overkill. about 3 should do.
About needs/wants.. yeah, kind of like sub-bosses, the secondary chars should be won over, by one of many different possible means.


Quote:Original post by OluseyiThe nature of text interaction is complicated, as has been observed above. How about an "emotive conversation" system? Rather than trying to build huge dialog trees or parse technology, the user can specify inquiry, interrogation, hurt, rejection, anger, empathy, indignation, curiosity, shock, non-platonic interest, seduction... By eliminating the requirement of parsing or generating natural language conversation (you could use a Simlish-like "language" to convey the emotional responses), an immense range of expressiveness can be attained.


I saw that once in Sam&Max, and whenever i hit the Ask a Question symbol, i'd go "why the hell are you asking that? thats not what i wanted to ask!"

In a game where what you say must be strategically chosen, that could be a problem. This could be fixed by (as you mention) going all out into emotions only. But since i plan to stick with voice acting (its kinda hard to feel bad when some character busts crying and speaking in gibberish) i would have to come up with means to identify what replies are going to be about. Plus, in soaps one-liners are very important (and usually delivered before commercial break!).

However, i shall investigate. Maybe the gibberish doesn't affect that adversely attachment. what do you think?
Working on a fully self-funded project
I've read some stuff on this. Check out http://www.quvu.net/interactivestory.net/ which is basically along the lines of what you're thinking: natural language processing, interactive storytelling, relational based gameplay. I remember reading an article about the system they used. I can't remember where but it's probably linked from the page. As I understood, they broke it down into thousands of "story chunks" (they called it something else) and then specified a method for them to follow from one to another. In the end, it seemed like a ton of work from a result of aroun 20 minutes of gameplay. However, it does seem impressive, but they unfortunately don't have a demo. Plus, there's a ton of useful information, projects and papers linked from the page.

tj963
tj963
Wow. Im gonna keep an eye out for that demo.
Although i don't favor text interfases nowadays, they could make good use of it. However, i am sure it is quite complicated.

I remembered a bit more about Sam&Max and, you know, the question icon was always a random nonsensical question. But you could go into a question submenu with icons of stuff you've seen or had, and people who you've met or were looking for. So that worked quite well. With a menu popup i could restrict interface to a few seconds. This could trigger the talks.

About interruption cues... i was thinking and to make it more dynamic there should be many, so you cannot predict when its going to happen (like... ok if i don't get interrupted after this bit then im safe for the rest of the convo), but there should be a way to control the damage, since its a random event. I shall watch some soapies for inspiration on that =)
Working on a fully self-funded project

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