Sounds dodgy. I wouldnt give them anything unless you see money or contracts on the table. If you dont see this, and continue getting an unprofessional misspelt message "HAVE U MADE A DECISION YET?" simply say.
I'm not interested
Intellectual property, your finances and reputation are at stake. You cannt afford to an unprofessional group having anything to do with you. By the sounds of them they're not going to make any money anyway.
Perhaps it would help more if we knew who the group was. I understand this maybe private information that you do not wish to disclose, so if it is: dont.
Make sure you make the right decision.
'Merging'
Author
As far as I know their name is suppose to be private for now. I find it a bit odd that their excuse for modding games instead of creating them is 'So we can get our name out'. I'm sorry, but after 3 years of modding and no one still knows who you are? I'm dumping this group like a bad habit and if I get the game done, I won't worry because I'll still be 10 years ahead of them(even if it takes ten years to get the game made lol).
I would forget about dealing with these people at all. There are many reasons.
1) All they've done is modded games. This is totally different from making their own games. This project probably won't be finished.
2) They are dealing with you in an unprofessional manner. Spelling words like "U" is the mark of people who aren't serious about what they're doing.
3) They won't agree to terms that you are binded to. You own the IP but you have to give your friend credit? Then if they want to use the IP from you, they have to give him credit. It's a matter of the law and of ownership. They can't refuse that obligation, it's not an option for them.
4) They aren't negotiating very fairly with you. You say you want control of the IP, you want to give credit to your friend, you want 50% of the profits....and all they offer you is 25% of the profits. Sure, that's still a lot of money, but they're disregarding the other issues you want taken care of.
5) They don't want to sign stuff. This is a bad sign. It means they're liable to string you along until they can screw you.
Take your business elsewhere and save yourself the trouble.
-Gauvir_Mucca
1) All they've done is modded games. This is totally different from making their own games. This project probably won't be finished.
2) They are dealing with you in an unprofessional manner. Spelling words like "U" is the mark of people who aren't serious about what they're doing.
3) They won't agree to terms that you are binded to. You own the IP but you have to give your friend credit? Then if they want to use the IP from you, they have to give him credit. It's a matter of the law and of ownership. They can't refuse that obligation, it's not an option for them.
4) They aren't negotiating very fairly with you. You say you want control of the IP, you want to give credit to your friend, you want 50% of the profits....and all they offer you is 25% of the profits. Sure, that's still a lot of money, but they're disregarding the other issues you want taken care of.
5) They don't want to sign stuff. This is a bad sign. It means they're liable to string you along until they can screw you.
Take your business elsewhere and save yourself the trouble.
-Gauvir_Mucca
Quote:Original post by hawk2k3This is a very important point which you don't seem to have understood.
As for the other guy that was working on this with me, we've agreed that I get the 'game' provided that in the end that he gets his name in the credits for the game(and a little cash too if I decide to make money off it, but don't tell him lol).
Just "agreeing" with him doesn't mean anything at all. IP rights can ONLY be transfered by written agreement and not by verbal contract - he still owns part of the IP regardless of what has been agreed. If the game gets made and generates a lot of cash then this person will have a legal right to claim a share of the money. Worse still he could actually get far more than he deserves by threatening to prevent publication.
Author
Obscure, would a log file containing that chat session(with him saying 'go ahead it's yours provided I get credit{co-credit, I'm not going to let him have all the credit!}') be a written agreement? Besides, he lost interest like a week later and he wrote the 'go ahead' bit so that I could continue without him.
No, it wouldn't. In some countries telephone calls and emails are legal evidences and can be submitted as proof while in certain countries the same does not hold good.
But in most countries a signed piece of paper is valid.
But in most countries a signed piece of paper is valid.
This isn't legal advice - you need to talk to a lawyer.
The answer is that even a lawyer can't give you a proper answer because there are so many possibilities and, at the end of the day, he may still make a legal challenge that would cost you time and money. He are a selection of the points...
1. If all that happened is the two of you chatted about an idea and then you wrote it up on your own. Then he doesn't own it because you can't own/protect ideas - they are not IP. The document/graphics/code you create based on that idea can be protected - these are intellectual property.
2. But, if you "chatted" via IM, where he writes his ideas down, then a court might decide that the log file was a creation based on his idea - that it is in fact part of the design document and as such intellectual property, which he owns.
3. If both of you typed up documents and merged them or swapped them back and forth with both of you working on them, then he owns whatever he created and you have a nightmare of spaghetti where it is impossible to prove who actually owns what.
4. The log file - an assignment of rights has to be pretty specific. If the guy just said "you can have the idea" (remember you can't actually own/protect an idea except by keeping it secret) then he hasn't actually assigned you anything. The idea and the IP are different. He would actually have had to state that he was giving/selling/assigning his intellectual property and/or moral rights for it to count.
5. Number 4 above doesn't apply in some parts of the world (I told you this wasn't going to be easy). In some countries it is actually impossible to give away or sell your moral rights in an IP. Instead you have to license them for X amount of time in exchange for Y.
Conclusion
The only way to be sure you are covered is to get an assignment of rights, otherwise the guy may pop up and try to claim a share when the game is done. He may or may not win but it will be expensive and time consuming. An assignment needs to be done right and that means getting a lawyer, which costs money.
The reason you need to do it now is that the IP is currently worthless so you have a much stronger bargaining position. As it is worthless there is a much better chance that he will assign it. Alternatively he may realise you are serious about the project and may decide he wants a share - this is good because you can agree now and then get on with the project or not agree and simply abandon the idea and you have not wasted any effort.
If you wait until the game is made then it has value. Not only does it have value but any delay in selling the game will cost you money - this means he will have a much stronger bargaining position. He might only own 5% of the IP but he could still demand 50% of the revenue because you can't sell his 5% without his permission and you can't really go back and remake the game without his 5%.
Reality check
All the above is really far too much work for a hobby project. The first game you make is a learning experience and as such is seldom any good. The far better option would be to go through the design and remove all this ideas or better yet start afresh and come up with a new game idea.
The answer is that even a lawyer can't give you a proper answer because there are so many possibilities and, at the end of the day, he may still make a legal challenge that would cost you time and money. He are a selection of the points...
1. If all that happened is the two of you chatted about an idea and then you wrote it up on your own. Then he doesn't own it because you can't own/protect ideas - they are not IP. The document/graphics/code you create based on that idea can be protected - these are intellectual property.
2. But, if you "chatted" via IM, where he writes his ideas down, then a court might decide that the log file was a creation based on his idea - that it is in fact part of the design document and as such intellectual property, which he owns.
3. If both of you typed up documents and merged them or swapped them back and forth with both of you working on them, then he owns whatever he created and you have a nightmare of spaghetti where it is impossible to prove who actually owns what.
4. The log file - an assignment of rights has to be pretty specific. If the guy just said "you can have the idea" (remember you can't actually own/protect an idea except by keeping it secret) then he hasn't actually assigned you anything. The idea and the IP are different. He would actually have had to state that he was giving/selling/assigning his intellectual property and/or moral rights for it to count.
5. Number 4 above doesn't apply in some parts of the world (I told you this wasn't going to be easy). In some countries it is actually impossible to give away or sell your moral rights in an IP. Instead you have to license them for X amount of time in exchange for Y.
Conclusion
The only way to be sure you are covered is to get an assignment of rights, otherwise the guy may pop up and try to claim a share when the game is done. He may or may not win but it will be expensive and time consuming. An assignment needs to be done right and that means getting a lawyer, which costs money.
The reason you need to do it now is that the IP is currently worthless so you have a much stronger bargaining position. As it is worthless there is a much better chance that he will assign it. Alternatively he may realise you are serious about the project and may decide he wants a share - this is good because you can agree now and then get on with the project or not agree and simply abandon the idea and you have not wasted any effort.
If you wait until the game is made then it has value. Not only does it have value but any delay in selling the game will cost you money - this means he will have a much stronger bargaining position. He might only own 5% of the IP but he could still demand 50% of the revenue because you can't sell his 5% without his permission and you can't really go back and remake the game without his 5%.
Reality check
All the above is really far too much work for a hobby project. The first game you make is a learning experience and as such is seldom any good. The far better option would be to go through the design and remove all this ideas or better yet start afresh and come up with a new game idea.
Author
Quote:Original post by Obscure
The reason you need to do it now is that the IP is currently worthless so you have a much stronger bargaining position. As it is worthless there is a much better chance that he will assign it. Alternatively he may realise you are serious about the project and may decide he wants a share - this is good because you can agree now and then get on with the project or not agree and simply abandon the idea and you have not wasted any effort.
Reality check
All the above is really far too much work for a hobby project. The first game you make is a learning experience and as such is seldom any good. The far better option would be to go through the design and remove all this ideas or better yet start afresh and come up with a new game idea.
First off, he is quite aware that I'm serious about it. Secondly all he gave me was the basic 'you could find it in any game' concept. So unless he plans on suing Id software, Valve, Ea, Etc...I'm not worried then.
> I find it a bit odd that their excuse for modding games instead of
> creating them is 'So we can get our name out'.
Modding is the smart way to start a game studio, especially for an FPS title. Counter-Strike was initially released as a mod. Many PC titles are in fact large scale mods based on the Quake or Unreal engines; and knowing those engines inside out, along with knowing how to build game assets for them are critical core competencies for any game studio.
> I'm sorry, but after 3 years of modding and no one
> still knows who you are?
Nobody knew who Valve was before they took on the Q2 engine and 'modded' it. Look where they are today...
I'd be more worried about the number of *full games* they have released in this time frame and how many units were *sold*. If they have been modding uncompleted tech demos for their entire 3 years, then I'd turn around and run away!
Do they have a publisher or do business with some company that represents them to publishers and distributors? A little due diligence on prospective business partners is always a good idea in such a case.
-cb
> creating them is 'So we can get our name out'.
Modding is the smart way to start a game studio, especially for an FPS title. Counter-Strike was initially released as a mod. Many PC titles are in fact large scale mods based on the Quake or Unreal engines; and knowing those engines inside out, along with knowing how to build game assets for them are critical core competencies for any game studio.
> I'm sorry, but after 3 years of modding and no one
> still knows who you are?
Nobody knew who Valve was before they took on the Q2 engine and 'modded' it. Look where they are today...
I'd be more worried about the number of *full games* they have released in this time frame and how many units were *sold*. If they have been modding uncompleted tech demos for their entire 3 years, then I'd turn around and run away!
Do they have a publisher or do business with some company that represents them to publishers and distributors? A little due diligence on prospective business partners is always a good idea in such a case.
-cb
Author
Actually....they've have only done 2 mods for a couple recent games(I'm not sure if that is a different type of modding then what you're talking about). They keep mentioning that they have unlimited resources and when I ask them what some of those 'resources' are they either point me to one of their mod sites or change the topic(which it was this that set off my instinct).
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