Quote:Original post by Wuntvor
At least as important would be that playing a new member will be a new experience. If you look at current mmorpgs, in the beginning you'll probably be doing the same things again, fighting the same mobs etc. If you don't manage to keep your character alive you may never get to see the later content at all, which isn't a good situation.
So you'll want to make playing each family-member something that'll be different each time, while still picking it up where the now-dead one left off.

The family system won't make you start over every time. In fact, you will have a number of different characters of various ages to choose from. Of course the younger members of the family will be less developed, but the goal of a system like this will be to keep the adventure fresh. In the event of death, a player could choose to play a family member of a similar age. This would leave them pretty close to where they were. They could also choose to play an older or younger character. The bottom line is that the other family members in a bloodline will continue to progress as they age, even if they aren't being played. It gives the player a number of different characters to choose from, all of whom are directly benefitting from the exploits of other members of the family. Whats more is that bonuses gained by characters will have an influence on the abilities of other family members, but will have greater influence on future generations.

Quote:
In my opinion, this system certainly won't work as long as there are levels and these levels are the main focus of the whole game. Sure, each family member may have different skills and they may improve in these over time, but these should not be the focus.
Even with a new member you should be able to plunge right into the game without too many penalties.

I believe a skill system would go best with this type of game. Characters would progress along a curve. Young characters would start with lower abilities which would gradually increase until maturity is reached. They would then begin to fall as the character grows old. When being actively played, the player can further increase these skills and abilities through use, and subsequently improve the "peak" that future generations will achieve. For instance, a brand new player may have a bloodline whose strength reaches a natural peak of 30, whereas a veteran player may have a bloodline where characters reach a natural peak of 55. Keep in mind that the dropping of attributes with age only applies to physical attributes. Mental stats like intelligence and, more importantly, wisdom will grow linearly through a character's lifetime.

With this system in mind you can see that characters of different ages have differnt things to bring to the table. Choosing a Mature character would allow you to fight in "higher level" areas than younger characters, but you would not be able to have as large an impact on their maximum ability scores as you would had you chosen a younger player. But, at any given time you can switch which family member is active. This allows players to play with any number of friends and guild members. In a game like EQ if you are level 40 and want to play with a level 20 friend, you have to create a new character and start over until you are similar levels. In my system you can simply find a family member that is of a similar age and ability level as your friend and set out.

Quote:Original post by Dalavex
What if the server lags and players die because of it?
What if the player loses connection because their ISP went down?
What if the player loses connection because their power went out?
What if the player is killed by a monster that is under the world?
What if the player falls through the world?
What if the player is killed because another player is blocking the exit of a dungeon?
What if the player is killed because another player is pulling trains on him?

Regardless of whether or not a permanent death system is being used in a game, people are going to die because of unforseen technical circumstances. The bloodline idea is a complete departure from role playing in the traditional sense. Just because death of a character is permanent doesn't mean that it is catastrophic. Quite the opposite.

In the event of death, a character loses items not flagged as heirlooms. Since most common items such as armor and standard non-magic weapons will be relatively cheap, loss of items isn't really a big obstacle.

Loss of "levels" shouldn't really be a concern because upon death a player will be able to choose another family member. They could choose a relative that was similar in age and abilities. If they have no characters that are of the same status as the recently deceased then they would have to choose someone of lesser abilities. However, since accomplishments are shared with the family, this shouldn't really be a major obstacle. It would be similar to "experience loss" systems used by other games. Actually the bloodline system would make this penalty less, as future generations of characters would be able to naturally progress to the point reached by predecessors. Any additional skill gains achieved during this time would be not only added to the character's skills, but added to the collective bonuses received by future generations.

The whole idea of this system is that a player will not have X number of character slots. All of their characters will be the result of the cumulative progress they have made in the game. A death is not an end, but a natural piece of the progression of the bloodline. Also, as stated above, death is not the only means of defeat. There will be other forms of non-lethal defeat.

Players shouldn't fear dying and simply be hit with penalties. A death in combat could be flagged as honorable and reward the family with higher status, possibly in the form of stat/skill bonuses. Think about the Vikings. When they rushed off to war they did not care if they died. They only hoped that they fought valliantly so that the valkyries would take their souls to valhalla. I think gaming within this system should be the same way.

In this system players have to stop thinking about the progression of the individual. The fact is, eventually the character will get old and feeble and the player will have to choose an heir to play. Sooner or later the individual will die. That much is certain. However, all of the status gained and skills gained will still remain within the family, and the family members will get stronger as time goes on.

Perhaps you could have a "stable" of characters that exist in the same world, as contemporaries. Call it a family, or a clan, or a tribe, or a commune, or whatever, but each player gets a group on characters that function as a social unit. I'll call it a "household".

In your household you might have a half-dozen characters. Say three of them are heroes, who fight for honor and fun, two are responsible for earning the household's income, and one is too young to be any use. The player controls one character directly, and sets behavioral parameters for the other five, who train, or work or study while the player is off having adventures. If the player returns to the household, they can switch characters, and pursue some other end or cultivate some other skillset.

If a character dies, the household scrapes together some money for a funeral and tomb of appropriate opulence or simplicity, and carries on with what's left. I'm not sure what to do when they all die, but I'm sure there's an elegant solution.

Households could be identified by a coat of arms, or just a tag that's visible to other players, so social interaction wouldn't be harmed too badly, and there's a bonus, too: With an entire household at your disposal, role-playing and social interaction would get a real boost. More specialization could be possible, leading to more team-based activities.

What's more, the inherent mortality of these characters would place considerable weight on legacy. Intermarriage with other households could be encouraged for political or eugenic reasons, and some sort of aging dynamic would require the uber-characters to pass into legend and let others have a shot. The only thing better than a great hero is a great hero with a great pedigree.

That's not to say that you can't build yourself up. A long, successful bloodline would lead to considerable wealth, reputation, political clout and intrinsic talents (allow a little LaMarckian evolution, here). An old, revered household would produce more admirable (and desirable) offspring, which could lead to marriages being a matter of some competition. SInce the fruit of a union must go to one household or the other, some sort of dowry system might be used to balance the deal, and a good strong household could making a killing just by marrying off a few youngsters.

Heirlooms and treasures need not be worn until the bearer dies. A treasury, or even a museum, could house the trophies of past generations, and in times of dire need, you might equip a promising youngster with a few powerful artifacts from his great and powerful ancestors.

Quote:Original post by Madster
You know, this sounds like a Really Good Idea (tm)
Of all the jillion MMOG permadeath threads on GD.net this is the first solution proposed that makes sense to me.

You still progress, and the death still makes sense. Plus you swiftly solve the problem of hanging out with friends that don't match your level. Hell, its like having your children hang out together. Smooth.

Plus, characters would have a shorter lifespan, letting you taste more of what the game has to offer, by trying many different characters (the more varied the character possibilities, the better the effect).
Also, non-lethal combat and prisioners are a great idea that is only possible by the original concept. Im sure there are more things that can be derived from this. And yeah, the whole game has to go around this concept. Like with any design (nevermind people who rest on the traditional genre conventions without taking chances.... bleh)

This thread could use a better title though.. i nearly passed it by (oh another permadeath thread... blech)

Love the idea. Hope it ever sees light. Cheers.

glad you like the idea.. its just a departure from the traditional single-cahracter development scheme. I'm not saying its completely better, just different. It would provide a totally different gaming experience.

Quote:Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Perhaps you could have a "stable" of characters that exist in the same world, as contemporaries. Call it a family, or a clan, or a tribe, or a commune, or whatever, but each player gets a group on characters that function as a social unit. I'll call it a "household".

In your household you might have a half-dozen characters. Say three of them are heroes, who fight for honor and fun, two are responsible for earning the household's income, and one is too young to be any use. The player controls one character directly, and sets behavioral parameters for the other five, who train, or work or study while the player is off having adventures. If the player returns to the household, they can switch characters, and pursue some other end or cultivate some other skillset.

If a character dies, the household scrapes together some money for a funeral and tomb of appropriate opulence or simplicity, and carries on with what's left. I'm not sure what to do when they all die, but I'm sure there's an elegant solution.

Households could be identified by a coat of arms, or just a tag that's visible to other players, so social interaction wouldn't be harmed too badly, and there's a bonus, too: With an entire household at your disposal, role-playing and social interaction would get a real boost. More specialization could be possible, leading to more team-based activities.

What's more, the inherent mortality of these characters would place considerable weight on legacy. Intermarriage with other households could be encouraged for political or eugenic reasons, and some sort of aging dynamic would require the uber-characters to pass into legend and let others have a shot. The only thing better than a great hero is a great hero with a great pedigree.

That's not to say that you can't build yourself up. A long, successful bloodline would lead to considerable wealth, reputation, political clout and intrinsic talents (allow a little LaMarckian evolution, here). An old, revered household would produce more admirable (and desirable) offspring, which could lead to marriages being a matter of some competition. SInce the fruit of a union must go to one household or the other, some sort of dowry system might be used to balance the deal, and a good strong household could making a killing just by marrying off a few youngsters.

Heirlooms and treasures need not be worn until the bearer dies. A treasury, or even a museum, could house the trophies of past generations, and in times of dire need, you might equip a promising youngster with a few powerful artifacts from his great and powerful ancestors.

The system you propose is incredibly complex but is novel. It is an extension of what I propose and would be quite compelling from the players perspective. I just hope that a mmorpg developer starts leaning in this direction. I really think the genre is getting a bit tired and cliche and could really use a game like this to spark more innovation.

Those last few annonymous poster posts were me. I had cookies turned off in my browser :)

I'm not really a player of MMORPGs - one of the things that never appealed to me was the way the death/stat systems were laid out. I must say though, I'm intrigued by this idea and would like to see it working in practise.