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Dak Lozar

Controversial game ideal?

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I''m in a strange state... I haven''t been working on game related stuff for about a week... side project is consuming too much time. So, I suppose that is why this ideal came to me... How about a game in which the player moves into a neighborhood where two rival gangs are fighting over "turf" (I have zero knowledge of any of this activity - except what I have seen from movies, tv and news ( of course the news is the same as tv)). The player must choose which gang to join. After that it would be played out like any RPG or a space sim in which the storyline is controlled and the choices the player makes affect the storyline. Of course, a MP version would allow greater freedom everyone that enters the world would have to choose which gang (I''m sure there would be many...), if any! This could be fun... but... I can see where it would be controversial... the media and some other groups would love to sink their teeth into something like this.... but, if you did it right... and tried to show that gangs aren''t all that great of a way of life... maybe you could get away with the concept. I know that in the past I have made some fairly bold statements about violence in games and about games (games not meant to be educational) not being tools of learning. Call it old age or whatever you like... but maybe games can be educational or games can influence behavior in a positive direction. What are your thoughts? Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

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well fuck the media and fundamentalists. this would actully be a pretty interesting game. I have liked the idea of the main character not being the one big assed force in a game. it would be a nice change of pace. but the story would have to get bigger than that. its a good place to start a game but there has to be more or it will get boreing.

I am not text, I am not organized pixels, I am not killed by turning off your monitor, I am not isolated by turning off your computer. I just am.

Conshape Electronic Arts


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games are very educational...the military uses war games to teach battle tactics..they even used a modified version of Doom to teach small force infiltration techniques and such...

There was an artical online some time ago [don''t remember where] that talked about how animals play games...lion cubs play mock fights, etc...it went on to state something along the lines that mammels are the only animal class that plays games..it seems to be a fundimental teaching technique that mammels alone use...very interesting read...

But anyhow, I live in a "hood" like enviroment...in fact there was a drive-by shooting last year that happened two houses down...6 months ago a girl was killed at a party a block over...this isn''t "south central"..just a midsize midwestern city...Mmm...honestly gang like activity around here seems to be vanishing and in turn replaced by drug dealers...er what I meen is that there are several rental homes in this area that are constantly moved into and out of on a near monthly basis...one trouble prone family moves in then gets kicked out for whatever reason and moves someplace else...the whole turf thing seems to have gotten fractured...but thats my point of view [the gangs wouldn''t be all that interested in me as I''m to old...and liveing in such a "hood" you tend to "stick to yourself"...if you don''t want trouble..you don''t cause trouble...that sort of thing]..yeah gangs are still around, but a lot more quiet then they used to be...I think that sense the media attention on gangs has died off, to some extent so have the gangs [that and as the gang members, present during the media hysteria, on the whole have gotten older...they have sorta imploded...some getting out for good...others just travel the drug dealing route...some inbetween]..by and large though the neiborhood is okay, containing poor people [like me] just trying to get by...

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Sorry to hear your living situation.

I really think that it does not matter where you live these days... more to the point anywhere you live there is a chance of violence. You know the nice little guy down the street... he''s a mass murderer and his next door neighbor is a child molester. It''s everywhere.

As for games being educational... I know that some are meant to be educational, and that is why they were produced. But on the other hand, some games are just meant to be fun... Such as Doom and Quake etc... The military (the Marines to be precise) is using the Doom engine to create simulations. These again are meant to be educational. The Marines have rewritten alot of the engine to suit their needs, which is training.

FPSs off the shelf are (IMO) nothing more the fun ways to waste time. From my experience playing in the Arena''s it''s an Ego fest, nothing educational about that (LOL). Far from the type of training experience that a Marine playing the mod''ed version of Doom would receive

At any rate... Thanks for the feedback...



Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

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I''m wondering... wasn''t Kingpin like this? It didn''t appeal to me (too crude) but the buzz about the game was that you built up a gang, kicked people''s butts, and used lots of swear words...

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Just waiting for the mothership...

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You want controversy try a game about dealing crack to pregnant women and then when they have their crack baby you collect them on spikes and the person with the most babies WINS! Now that could get on the news.

As Mr Cup always says,
''I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me.''

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Damn Mr Cup... Get off the caffeine and crack... It isn''t good for your sanity

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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Dak, where does the gameplay come from? Is it like a war game where you try to accumulate as much land as possible. Is the computer player just badgering you by doing drive-by-shootings. Is there gang wars? Do you control one character or many at once? Is there lots of gore and discusting violent scenes? Controversial can be good, it all depends on the subject.

"So you''re the one that designed that game are you?"
*Gulp* "Umm, yeah"

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quote:
Original post by Mr Cup

You want controversy try a game about dealing crack to pregnant women and then when they have their crack baby you collect them on spikes and the person with the most babies WINS! Now that could get on the news.



I know you''re probably joking (or half-joking???) but there''s a huge difference controversy and obscenity. What you''re talking about really is juvenile obscenity, in that it''s goal is to offend rather than provoke (like Maplethorpe''s cross in urine, which was more a hit at religion rather than a thought provoking statement).

To take your example, if you want controversy, cast the player as a young person of color an economically abandoned American inner city. Create an economic and cultural model that rewards killing, car jacking, and drug dealing to pregnant women. Make all other paths insanely difficult. Graphically show it all, especially the consequences, and offer it up as a defiant social protest.

Oh yeah, and make sure just about every gameplay option ultimately ends in poverty, prison or death.

Now __THAT__ would be controversy that you could defend in front of Lieberman and Capitol Hill.



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Just waiting for the mothership...

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Paul,
Welcome back... Tis good to hear from you.

As for game play... jeez... I really haven''t thought much more about the ideal. In fact, I think I was more struck with the issue of contreversy as opposed to game play.

But, if I were to design something like this... ... ok, it''s coming to me hold on

OK, how about a Close Combat type game? Squad level only here your using gangs? Ummm nah that would suck.... how about... Doh never mind

I don''t think the ideal would work all that well as an after thought. But everyone is welcome to prove me wrong!

Keep on designing!

Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

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Hey Wavinator, I''d play that. How long can you play the stupidly hard, ''right'' way before giving in. He he he, a game that breaks your will. I like it. Oh and I was joking before, the babies on spikes comes from a stand up comic guy, damn I cant remember his name! His one is actually funny, no crack, or caffeine.

As Mr Cup always says,
''''I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me.''''

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Guest Anonymous Poster
>> but there''s a huge difference controversy and obscenity. >>

You usually call the expression of people that you do not agree with obscene while you might say that any non-popular opinions that you yourself support are controversial. There is no absolute hard line between the obscenity and controverse.

One game that I would like to see would be about creating moral justifications for various actions, running a propaganda war instead of just controlling tanks and soldiers. I think traditional RTS games could easily be made politicly controversial by using techniques such as having suicide-bomber soldiers shout ''Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can.. Blam!'' when they charge their enemies. Some would probably call that obscene though.

Henry

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
[snip]
I think traditional RTS games could easily be made politicly controversial by using techniques such as having suicide-bomber soldiers shout ''Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can.. Blam!'' when they charge their enemies. Some would probably call that obscene though.
Henry


I just call it disrespectful.



Dave "Dak Lozar"Loeser

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Disrespectful, obscene... potato, potato (the second potato should be pronounced as potaato)

I agree with Wavinator though, instead of doing as Dak Lozar suggests "but, if you did it right... and tried to show that gangs aren''t all that great of a way of life... maybe you could get away with the concept" I think a game that examined the reasons behind the gangbanger lifestyle would be of much greater value. A game with an actual message would also deserve the protection of the 1st amendment more than any ordinary shoot-em-upper set in the ganglands.

There are some controversial games out there that deal with real issues. One game that comes to mind is the one where you play a reindeer running around in the woods shooting human hunters. A lot of hunters voiced the opinion that they thought that game was ''disrespectful'' to say the least. Even though I do not think the creators of the game had any political motivations, the game did give a new perspective on the act of killing living beings for pleasure. Maybe someday we will see games that examine the financial motives behind modern military action and business games that explore exploitation of third world countries. That''s when we can talk about real controversy in games.

Henry

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster

Disrespectful, obscene... potato, potato (the second potato should be pronounced as potaato)

I agree with Wavinator though, instead of doing as Dak Lozar suggests "but, if you did it right... and tried to show that gangs aren''t all that great of a way of life... maybe you could get away with the concept" I think a game that examined the reasons behind the gangbanger lifestyle would be of much greater value. A game with an actual message would also deserve the protection of the 1st amendment more than any ordinary shoot-em-upper set in the ganglands.

[snip...]

Henry


I suppose I should elaborate... I said it was disrespectful because he used the words of a man that was fair to all people. J.F.K. is a well thought of American President. Unlike some that came before him and most that have followed him, he was undoubtedly the world''s best-loved world leader.

During my travels to Europe and the Middle East, I’ve found that most people respect J.F.K. tremendously. And using his words, in the manner that the poster suggested is in my opinion, disrespectful.


Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

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quote:
Original post by Dak Lozar
[snip]
he was undoubtedly the world''s best-loved world leader.



grr.. careful with the generalizations here. This might degenerate. I''d change it to
"He was undoubtedly one of the world''s best-loved leaders".
Not a big change but just big enough.

quote:
Original post by Dak Lozar
During my travels to Europe and the Middle East, I’ve found that most people respect J.F.K. tremendously. And using his words, in the manner that the poster suggested is in my opinion, disrespectful.



Actually I think it would be a markedly sharp observation at how even the best intentions and statements can be perverted by someone with a strong enough belief in one cause or another. What J.F.K. meant, and how people interpret it, is not the same.

It''s actually an honour that this was mentioned.




People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

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quote:
Original post by MadKeithV
grr.. careful with the generalizations here. This might degenerate. I''d change it to
"He was undoubtedly one of the world''s best-loved leaders".
Not a big change but just big enough.
[snip]


I''m not going to nit-pick semantics with you but, I am getting a bit P.O.ed at the division that is constantly on this board. Americans -vs.- Europeans, Europeans -vs.- Americans, etc... I have been a strong advocate of dropping all of this garbage in the past and I will in the future.
If you think that I was trying to be pro-American in this instance, you were wrong and I offer my apologies.
quote:

Actually I think it would be a markedly sharp observation at how even the best intentions and statements can be perverted by someone with a strong enough belief in one cause or another. What J.F.K. meant, and how people interpret it, is not the same.

It''s actually an honour that this was mentioned.


What do you mean? What do you think he meant when he (J.F.K.) said this? What do you think he meant when he (the AP) said this?





Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

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Guest Anonymous Poster
My point was that having his words being shouted by suicide bombers would be to give a critical perspective on American nationalism, something that would certainly be controversial. I know many feel that such a view would not be entirely unjustified either since we have many examples of movies (Air Force One and The Rules of Engagement, haven''t seen the last one but read the reviews) and other forms of media that turns themselves silly trying to push the opposite view. A statement like that would obviously be disrespectful to those who hold a certain opinion but so would Air Force One be to anyone of the opposite opinion.

Anyway, I''m not here to discuss how justified American nationalism really is so feel free NOT to go on about it. It was just an example of what I would call ''real controversy''.

Henry

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