Quote:Original post by JimmyShimmy
I feel there is potential for Zombies to be the enemy-these ones will be slow, In which case I do not want big open area's so they can play there unispiring role of "target practice". Nor do I want to just make the area's cramped/claustrophobic so you have little time to react ala "house of the Dead" "Doom 3" and make you jump (it's kinda cheap)I want to create a setting that is genually going to unnerve the player. Presenation/execution is the key to engage the player so you have got him firmly in the seat of your rollercoaster.

If you haven't already (and I'm guessing you probably have), play through the "Ravenholm" chapter of Half-Life 2. I'd call it vital viewing for anyone who is making this kind of game.

Quote:With a town I geuss I have allot to play around with-use of street lights at night time could be vital for the player to watch one of the undead walk under and prepare him/her for combat (sort of force the player/make them learn to be observant but unlike say Doom3 where there is not much space you could try and find well lit area's or area's in the shadow and camp to get the upper hand), You could lead the Zombies into a trap as they follow you (weather it's locking them into a derelict house or thorwing human flesh over the area (as bait) where you have put gasoline) and there could be Zombie outbreaks where they use numbers to break through the perimiter of the level and you have to eliminate a cetian ammount withen a given time otherwise the town will be over run/game over.

Right, so the gameplay puts an emphasis on thinking about what you do, rather than just trying to shoot things when they pop up at you. Fair enough. As such you want to think about some key traps that your level will contain, and some things that can be used in interesting ways (i.e. machines/devices - like HL2's gas/fire traps).

You've got a lot of scope to be functional, too. To put in things that you'd expect to find in a town - shops, roads, houses, etc. Think about how people would have used the town when it was populated.

While people are quick to bash Doom3's level design and gameplay, there are some key things in there that are overlooked, and should be learned from:

-traps shouldn't be lethal, but still require you to react fast.
-If you're gonna allow spawning in visible spots, have a reason for it (demons, teleporters, etc) and make it plausible (you use the same teleporter at some point)
-allow Player to see whats chasing him, even if you fake it (trough CC monitors, windows, etc.). This is used a lot troughout Half-Life 2 as well.
-player conditioning: set the same trap for the player about 3 times, then start changing it. Player will expect it to be the same, and get surprised when its not (unless player decides to stop playing and complain in forums instead ;) )

variation examples:
a) trap does not trigger in the same place but deeper/farther away. This way the player goes in very carefully, then goes 'huh, nothing happened', feels safe and gets careless, then BAM!
b) trap does not trigger at all (makes you uneasy for a bit, gives doubt to next identical trap)
c) trap triggers a completely different event (even a bonus)
d) trap opens a closet full of monsters (just kidding)

d) brings me to the big error in Doom3: if you're going to spawn off-screen, make the spawn areas believable. Even a locked/broken door works.

I enjoyed that game. Good stuff. Unnerved every single person i showed it to.

"they took my baby"

Quote:Original post by Madster
-traps shouldn't be lethal, but still require you to react fast.

I assert that traps shouldn't exist unless they're an element of the core mecahnics of the game. They were okay in Prince of Persia because it was a game about acrobatics: dodging, jumping, ducking, etc.. They were nothing but an excuse to abuse the "Save Game" feature in all the id software games.

Game designers call it "arbitrary complexity." And it's a bad thing.

Quote:Original post by JimmyShimmy
Both HL's had many interesting intereactive peices of kit (that had somthing to do with helping to kill your opposing force in a creative way), but I had two cripes with HL/HL2:

1) The loading sections of the levels (to cut up the memory intake and keep a flow to the game with the contantly changing environments) was kind of an annoying pause and going back was not an option because not only waiting for a new area to load frustrating (actaully induced a trapped feel) but you could not as the game pushed you along (actually not so much trapped anymore/just pushed along).

I agree, but that's a technical issue rather than a level design one. If you know upfront that you want to make a large, seamless environment with zero loading times between sections (i.e. streaming data in moments before you need it), then you can plan for that in your engine's technical design - but beyond that it shouldn't have much to do with the level design.

Quote:2)With such a design and flow all the unique things you did in the game where only done once (make a ramp bouyant/make a ledge accessible by weighing down a peice of wood balancing with cinder blocks)-all this stuff is fun but it hardly ever happens and I can't go back to play! With reagrds to the trap's they were only useful once! You arrive in a new area, you see the aliens advancing you drop the car on them and then that wonderful peice of creative/machinery carnage is just left there never to be used again...

Yes - some bits managed to be used more than once (like the car that you drop on some zombies and then use to ascend to Father Gregory's walkways), but you could never 'take it with you.' Unless your game is going to allow the player to stay in one place using the same thing over and over - and to be honest, while it would have been nice to use it more than a couple of times, more than five or six is likely to get boring - it's going to need to allow the player to move things around on a substantial basis. If you can't carry it and you can't attract more zombies to it, it's one-shot, simple as.

I don't think that moving machines around any substantial amount is much of a gameplan - HL2 let you carry sawblades and so on around a lot but nothing big. So I'd recommend focusing your efforts on simply putting in so many cool setups that it doesn't *matter* that you had to leave something behind - because you always know there'll be something cool around the corner. In truth, Valve did do a fair amount of this; try playing through Ravenholm using nothing but the gravity gun and you'll see just how much they've provided in the environment for you to use. It's going to place a massive burden on you as the level designer though; coming up with a large and varied set of traps to lay is difficult. (After playing Ravenholm for a while, you may begin to feel that Valve only really reused two of their things - sawblades and exploding canisters - but they reused them a lot to fill up the space).

Quote:HL2 was great because of the all the stuff you did/experienced but (like many) I really enjoyed certian parts of the game and would have loved to have been able to played round with themm all the time/or at least on a constant basis.

Aye.. and to be fair, there was nothing stopping you from hanging back and dropping cars with levers a few more times, or firing the gas traps. The problem was that there were no more zombies to take out. Perhaps you should look at the rate at which new zombies are fed to the player - so that if they want to try new and interesting ways of smashing the crate on a chain into them, they can do?

Quote:Even great have simple flaws. It would seem perfect is an improbability.

Certainly. Though attempting to be perfect is a perfectly noble goal. [smile]

Quote:
Unlike HL/HL2 our levels will be cut up. Different routes of the town will distingush the levels. In a level that is your area of play with no being pushed along (save first level) and plenty of opportunity to try out your aresnal/succsefully carry out a trap in the form of multiple wave's of enemy's which differ ate in speed/durability/numbers with regards to how well you do/did previously (dynamic level structure).

Sounds like you beat me to it [wink] Just make sure you give the player the chance to move on if they get bored of playing with one particular thing. Your goal of X kills in the time allotted is an interesting approach - reminds me of Crimsonlands - and I think it's a very wise move because it doesn't push the player to progress (rather, it pushes them to find effective ways of dealing with the zombies and to then keep on hitting that button).

Quote:Visually we know what we need-not just the obvious objects that come with a town but the style

Cool - you definitely need to be keeping that in mind, then. Do you have concept art, renders, style guide videos, etc - from your art lead to help ensure you've always got the kind of thing fresh in your mind?

Quote:weather we would want Zombies driving car's/being behind the cash till's is somthing I doubt would flaot well with the team

I think I'd be wary of that too, if only because it's damn hard to do without scripting, and scripted events kill replayability. If you're going to have wave after wave of zombie coming through, you'll only be able to have the first wave crash a truck through the wall.

Quote:although I myself I am fully behind the idea of exploiting the comedy that Zombies bring with them (the fact that they are slow/can be pushed over/have limbs falling off/make bizarre sounds) and I love Geroge A Romero's take on the Zombies-that they can recognize things and go to places were they used to as living beings-they act like the Chassis of a ghost.

Cool, you've done your research [grin] I agree that exploting some of the comedic aspects of zombies (Romero zombies, at least - when you think about the realities of the zombies in HL it's somewhat more chilling) can be a good plan, but I think that's an issue for your AI programmer more than anything else. The zombies will make silly noises and have their limbs fall off regardless of the level you make for them to do it in.

Quote:Original post by JimmyShimmy
The point of our game is to have a big open/multiple routed area that has all sorts of traps/objects to use against the Zombies in the most hassle free way(with regards to your position/state.)

Aha.. this explains the ravenholm focus. So, supposedly you're a lone guy roaming around zombie-infested area, zombies who aren't particularly after you.
I guess in order to be helpful i should ask more:
Are they going to be fast or slow? human or demonic? (or both)?

I see you want to emphasize traps and environment combat. Will there be any guns at all? how intelligent will zombies be? can they open doors, crash trough windows? how far can they sense you? how many are you expected to fight at a time?

All that said, if you favor environment, i feel by far the greatest thing i've seen is the gravity gun + buzzsaw. But putting a gravity gun would be rather lame. Grab the concept: makeshift weapons that have special effects on enemies!

For example, let the player near a liquour store, and let him stuff makeshift fuses in the bottles, to light them afterwards and throw them.
let the player impale zombies (with, say, stakes) and let them continue moving with the stake across them. Give the player a lantern and have him scavenge batteries from stores. Let him toss furniture down the stairs, blocking them. Let windows be breakable for both the player and the zombies. Let curtains be closed so you can hide. Let doors and windows be boardable.
Heck, the best of zombie culture, let them take arbitrary limb removal without dying! cut its head off, it goes on moving, stumbling. Cut one leg off, it falls twitching. etc.

If you wanna go crazy you could have ragdoll anim for a section of the body that limps around (have it move the legs and limp the torso with everything else)

Oh okay. those questions. they're important. =)

a good level has few things to get between your rocket and your enemy, but gives you alot of places to evade to.

try desiging your level around a centrel area.