Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

ape

Zelda != RPG

Recommended Posts

ape    122
This has been driving my nuts for at least 2 years now. Folks have been refering to the "Legend Of Zelda" series as an rpg, or the trivialy more accurate action/rpg, or adventure/rpg. I contend that the Zelda series is far more kin to a puzzle game than an rpg. For the sake of this thread: Puzzle game = not a Tetris type puzzler, but an Adventures of Lolo, Solomon''s Keys, etc, where the character has many different abilities, and puzzles are designed during game development, not created by randomly falling/appearing pieces. Rpg = Final Fantasy, et al. Games heavy in statistics, resource management (with magic points, heal potions), and with hundreds of inventory items. Also rpg''s have stronger stories. ..Purists will be quick to point out that any game where you "play" a "role" is a "role-playing" game, but that''s a very thin argument that bears little weight in the real world. I don''t think it''s worth debate. So while games in the Zelda Series do have some rpg elements, such as hearts = hp, swords and sheilds power up every now and then, and there are some townsfolks and a mild story to follow, the gameplay of Zelda is closer to a puzzle game than it is an rpg. Shall we reflect on Chris Crawford''s mention of ''verbs availible to the player'' from Next Generation Magazine about 3 years ago: Lets look at the verbs availible to the player in The Legend Of Zelda. Ocarina of Time (so as to avoid any spoilers for those playing Majora''s Mask) The Player can: Walk, run, slash with sword, use shield, roll forward, jump, climb, push, pull, light torches, activate switches with slingshot or arrow, bomb walls, some switches/enemies where only vulnerable to the boomerang, pick up and throw objects, hookshot to get places, some switches/enemies were only vulnerable to the Megaton Hammer, the heavy boots allowed walking under water, hover boots where similarly helpful, Some places could only be accessed by old or young Link... there''s plenty more. So the game play in Zelda is about restricting the players movement, and then rewarding them with movement enableing power-ups, ex. "Now I''ve got Epona, I can go explore the Gerudo camp". When tackling a dungeon in a Zelda game (the heart and soul of Zelda gameplay), what your doing is trying to figure out the puzzles in the dungeon and open up the doors to move foward. Its not about using the Sword of Uranus +3 to kill a boss for the Helm of Uranus, its about hitting the eyeball switch that frozen in ice, by shooting your regular arrow thru a burning torch. In summary ( I promise.. this is all) Zelda games are more like puzzlers, than rpg. Power ups aren''t about letting you fight or defend better, but they''re for letting you solve future puzzles. And there''s more story in the first 2 hours of any final fantasy, than there is in the whole series of Zelda games. Any one still awake out there..?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MSW    151
heres where I think you are wrong:

"So the game play in Zelda is about restricting the players movement, and then rewarding them with movement enableing power-ups, ex. "Now I''ve got Epona, I can go explore the Gerudo camp"."

How is that fundamentaly different then "I''ve now reached level X and can finaly explore such and such a place"?

Any RPG starts off restricting your movement..sure in some it isn''t as "cut and dry" as others...you may get to venture out into the woods but not get far until you are strong enough to beat whatever lerks out there...

The whole concept of charactor levels, experience points, etc.. basicly equals the "power-up" concept...they both work to improve the charactor...just one does it in a more gradual way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GalaxyQuest    122
Give me a fricken break. I cant stand people who post stupid crap like yours ape..how about that! It shouldnt even have gotten 1 reply..thanks msw! you guys just dont get it, you always argue about the most stupid things..just like those that argue over which type of music is best or the game they like is better than the rest...bahhh! you cant argue about personal preferences because they are personal!! doh! I suggest you go unplug Ape and see a therapist...since you cant get over anger for 2 years...ever hear the term pyscho?

and dont worry...im not gonna flame this stupid thread anymore cuz ive waisted enough time..



aka John M.
Never give up. Never surrender!



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
I don''t know where you kids come in and call Zelda an RPG game, but Zelda isn''t a RPG game. It infact is a puzzle/action game. RPGs have a story line, that continuly moves from one direction to another, and your actions can change the story line dramaticly. Zelda, no matter how many times you play it, gives u the same freakin game. RPGs are Role Playing Games. Meaning you play as different roles of charachters. IN Zelda you only play as link. In FF (final fantasy) you have like 10 different people you can play as. And with each one, you can end the game differently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BitBlt    386
quote:

Puzzle game = not a Tetris type puzzler, but an Adventures of Lolo, Solomon''s Keys, etc, where the character has many different abilities, and puzzles are designed during game development, not created by randomly falling/appearing pieces.



Let''s see here, many different abilities, designed puzzles. With that definition, Half-Life, Unreal, Quake I and II, The whole mega man series (I could go on forever) or nothing more than "puzzle games". Come on. Give me a break.

Also, don''t mean to bash your post anymore, but who really cares wether or not zelda was (or is) an RPG. As long as it''s fun, that''s what matters to me.



"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams."
- Willy Wonka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ketchaval    186
Quote "
"So the game play in Zelda is about restricting the players movement, and
then rewarding them with movement enableing power-ups, ex. "Now I've got
Epona, I can go explore the Gerudo camp"."


Well one way of saying this is that it uses a system where player achievements (solving puzzles) are rewarded with equipment which allows them to do more things, and thus often increases the explorable areas or gives new ways to fight / move.

Often the reward for a puzzle (in Zelda) is the item that would have allowed you to get to the reward easily.

Ie. Completed section = reward (increase in abilities / flexibility).

Edited by - Ketchaval on November 3, 2000 6:02:58 PM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
I''d say that zelda64 is barely an RPG, and that zelda for snes isn''t. I like the snes version better though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(hold me back people...)

Why the f**k does everyone argue semantics all the
f**king time !?!

Stop being narrow minded! You can''t just stuff games into
stereotypical genres any more, because they are too complex!!

And the genre is just a label anyway!!! It''s a security blanket
that small-brained fools cling to in an effort to feel superior!
(ooh, i''m special - I''m making a FPS, so what, I''m doing an
RPG)

The point you need to see is that it is a *GAME*

if people want to call something "thingamabob", then let them
call it a thingamabob. No one''s stopping you from calling it
a "whatsit", a "gizmo", or whatever.


AARGH!!!

From now on, if anyone asks me what I''m making, I''m just going
to say "A Game". Leave all the point pushing and semantic games
to the self-righteous wankers.


(guess who had a bad day at work...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nazrix    307
SpazBoy_the_Mitey, hell yeah! My thoughts exactly


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by SpazBoy_the_Mitey

From now on, if anyone asks me what I''m making, I''m just going
to say "A Game". Leave all the point pushing and semantic games
to the self-righteous wankers.



Uhh.. hehehe.. what kinda game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lakibuk    128
i would call it action-adventure with some rpg-elements.
the way it mixes different styles makes it one of my all-time favorite games.
zelda64 even becomes a fps when you shoot with your sling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blackstream    122
I think that''s (one of) the points that Spaz and Galaxy are making. You can''t stuff anything into Genres really because nothing is a pure-blood RPG or a pure-blood FPS. (Almost) every game has a combination of other Genres. IMHO, however, I think calling a game a (insert genre) describes what genre it is most of. For example, DOOM is a FPS, even though it has minor puzzle elements, it is mostly a FPS. Zelda, IMHO is mostly a puzzle game, but it has RPG elements. Ogre Battle is about a 50/50 RPG/RTS. Heck, Mario 64 is mainly a platform type game, but it is also has puzzle elements.

My point is that no game is just a RPG, or a FPS or a XYZ. However, I also don''t think that the 3 letter words should just be dumped. Human''s love to catorgorize. It makes their lives easier and faster in some cases. Think about it, if you liked sports, and you went to Shareware.com, wouldn''t you like to go to a Sports section, instead of weeding though 5,000,000 other non-sports type games? Personally, I can see the uses for 3 letter names, but if you hate them, don''t use them.

BTW, the marketers for Zelda probably thought they would get a wider audience for their game if they used the term, RPG, instead of Puzzle Game.

-Blackstream

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dwarfsoft    1229
quote:
Original post by lakibuk

i would call it action-adventure with some rpg-elements.
the way it mixes different styles makes it one of my all-time favorite games.
zelda64 even becomes a fps when you shoot with your sling.


Well, mine would be an exploration game, with predefined branching story, actions with consequences and a bit of characterisation thrown into the fray... Oh and I am forgetting a bit of controvercy in the making .

Naz - I am with you

SpazBoy_the_Mitey - I was too tired last night to say it... I am glad you did.. I think all mine would have been is "Genre''s are evil. Never class anything into a Genre. Technically any game *could* be considered an RPG!" or along those lines

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:

Original post by blackstream

My point is that no game is just a RPG, or a FPS or a XYZ. However, I also don''t think that the 3 letter words should just be dumped.


I *would* agree with you on this point, but only if eveyone else
could agree how those 3 letter genres are defined. You get into
worlds of trouble when you call anything different (dare I say
innovative?) an RPG. This thread is a prime example.

So perhaps, instead of using jargonistic lingo that obfuscates
the author''s intent, we should just speak in plain, descriptive
terms.

The phrase "This game is" should be demolished with extreme
predjudice. As soon as you say that a game "is" something, you
influence other peoples'' perception of what the game *actually*
is. Instead, it should be said what a game "has".

For instance:

Zela is a game,
that is set in a 3d fanatsy world,
with the camera follwing the hero around.

In Zelda you kill monsters, & solve puzzles using a variety
of weapons & skills which you acquire along the way.


Conclusion - yes, it is helpful and instinctive to categorize
games, but the terms and our understanding of them differ. So
either people will be more flexible in their use of these terms
(btw: ape, I never classified Final Fantasy games as RPG), or
perhaps we need to describe content more clearly. By the look
of things, no one is EVER going to do either of these, and
we are doomed to spend eternity locked in big massive arguments
about what game is what.



------------------------
Hmmm, my flu medication is nullifying all the caffeine in my
system. Soon I''ll have to sleep like normal people.

"I think SpazBoy likes the sound of his own keyboard just a
little too much for his own good" -- SpazBoy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
I am anonymous that alone will eat up all your mind
i don''t remember many pc-games that could be at least compared in a few ways to rpgs.
Role Playing Game means that you are playing the role of a character not that you guide a character somewhere and attributes change or something it means you are the characterwith his attributes you develop them and you help a charcter developing its attributes
and neither FF nor Zelda is an rpg perhaps CD H&S A game(Chracter development Hack & Slash Action Game)
CDH&SA Games
I don''t want to say these games are bad or anything but if you are using terms like RPG you should see that it means Role Playing Game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Naz & Dwarfsoft-

I had to laugh when I saw this thread. No offense, but this is why your crusade to abolish genres in favor of more descriptive terms will fail. As soon as you say you have a game w/ "exploration, some characterization, and actions w. consequences," and another game comes out w. the same sort of thing- WAM-POW, you have the "exploration/characterization/consequential action" genre, soon to be shortened to "ex-char-consequential", to "ECC" games. LOL!

OTH, I know your real intent is to develop a more useful way of talking about games, mainly for developers' sake. In that light, have you read Gamasutra's Formal Abstract Design Tools thread? This guy (and the associated forum) has done alot of hard thought in this direction. The article's worth a read.

If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

Edited by - Anonymous Poster. on November 5, 2000 1:14:16 PM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MSW    151
Enough of the "game genres arn''t definitive" crap already... Genres have never been all powerful defineing tools...they are just lose associations comprised from simular common features found in comparable products...they don''t have sharp edge borders...and never have

To that end I think Zelda is an RPG...sure, it doesn''t seem to "perfectly" fit the genre as would a more definitve RPG like Ultima, nor does it have a strong emphesis on story as Final Fantasy does...All it meens is that RPGs is a major "umbrella" genre, much like "Action Movies" or "Rap Music"...within each of those genres there can be a huge amount of diversity, and many genre members can "cross over" into other genres...

After all, how would you classify the film "The Matrix"?

Action, Comedy, Sci-fi, Horror, or Drama?

Hard core Action movie fans could argue that it doesn''t fit because of the sci-fi elements...

Hard core Sci-fi fans could argue that huge emphesis on action would eliminate it from thier chosen genre...

Does this meen we need to make a new genre for this film to fit into?...HELL NO!...It just meens that the hard core genre fan is to "close" to the genre...they just need to step back, get out more often, be more accepting, open minded...then they may finaly understand that genres don''t only contain a narrow check-list of features to compare against [thinking like that is what limits creativity]...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dwarfsoft    1229
quote:
Original post by MSW

Enough of the "game genres arn''t definitive" crap already... Genres have never been all powerful defineing tools...they are just lose associations comprised from simular common features found in comparable products...they don''t have sharp edge borders...and never have



It is not that we keep on saying that they aren''t definitive... It is just that some people don''t believe us. You have it right, RPG''s never had a strict regulation... But everybody seems to think that they do. This is why we keep ranting about it.

As for Matrix - you''re goddamn right! A couple of other movies come to mind. I don''t know where I would class "The Usual Suspects" but I think it would better fit in Drama - yet the actual content of the story would put it more akin to Action - even though there isn''t much...

Basically - GENERE''s JUST DON''T CUT THE GRADE... Which is why you need to think about games abstractly. AP had it right there about the creation of a genre, I just want people AS game designers to start looking from a new angle instead of making ''yet another <insert GREAT game genre here> game!''. IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON TO BIGGER AND BETTER THINGS PEOPLE

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sEntiEnt    103
Well if genres didn''t exist then there would be be no room for genre-breaking games that seem to look innovative

I really can''t believe that people pick a genre and make a game! I mean just because I may to choose to put guns in my game doesn''t class it as a shooter. It just means that the gameplay mechanics of aiming a gun and the evisceral pleasure of depicted explosions/vioilence are fun parts of the games design! I think as for Zelda you play the role of link therefore it is an rpg, but then that would class tomb raider as an rpg (plus most games ever made) traditionally with roleplaying you create the role yourself so for example you are not just given a character to control but you are ''acting'' as that character instead of yourself. I think online rpgs have more roleplaying, whereas in zelda you are following a story - you just have a certain amount of freedom and interactivity to do it. As for the puzzles? All games have puzzles either a) to slow the games pace down b) cause they are fun/satisfying/challenging/rewarding to the player and without reward why play the game?

Genres are just a catagory so that the game can be quickly described and related to, everything in the world has a catagory! An apple is a fruit, a rose is a flower, even people are catagorised into thier lifestyle character/ you have DINK (double income no kids) all professions have thier catagories and acronims. Its human nature just accept it but just don''t let that sacrifice fresh and original gameplay.

-+GAME OVER+-

perception -> Consciousness -> life

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites