Starcraft MMORPG? OMGSWIZZLE! I'm a recent convert to the MMORPG fold - I've been playing World of Warcraft for two months, but I'd drop it instantly if there was a similar game but in the Starcraft universe... hmm... they've already got a lot of the artwork from the SC: Ghost project, and a fully stress-tested MMO engine from WoW... and they've hinted that they may be working on something further in the SC universe...
Persistant MMO games definitely need the evolving storyline aspect that Chef talks about. One of my biggest gripes about WoW is that it feels like no matter what your character does, it can't possibly make a difference to the online world. For instance, I jump through a series of hoops to get some special healing salve to cure the sickly gazelles, but sure enough, ten minutes later they're back again, wandering around smelling mouldy. I go and recover those sacks of supplies that was stolen by harpies, but as soon as the next PC walks past the goblin trader who lost the sacks, he'll be whining for more like a begger at a train station. If there was a feeling that, if I drove the Zerg out of Mar Sara, that they wouldn't just respawn in 10 minutes and get back to busily waiting for the next quester to wipe them out again, the game wouldn't get old half as fast.
Also it'd be nice for NPCs to have a bit more 'life' of their own. It always frustrates me to see hyenas walking around 5m from sleeping lions, where in real life the two should be fighting. Or a herd of deer bounding around and past a savannah prowler that completely ignores them. They do have wolves killing hares occasionally but that's the extent of it.
MMORPG as RTS
You know, i'm reminded of similar discussions in the past. Having NPC's control the monster forces usually isn't that fun, since you can eventually figure out how they play and beat them. In previous discussions we played with the idea of RTS vs FPS. By that i mean a RTS player would control an army of Zerg NPC's via RTS hotseat screen and all the other players on the opposing non-RTS team would run around in FPS as solo-soldiers. That system would breed unique combat situtions (since RTS players would try to outwit the FPS players and overwhelm them with the Zerg), not to mention entertain RTS players with FPS units that are intelligent and live for fighting off hordes, requiring strategy to beat.
[Edited by - Gyrthok on March 31, 2005 4:24:55 PM]
[Edited by - Gyrthok on March 31, 2005 4:24:55 PM]
indeed a quite interesting idea, starcraft mmo :) maybe should consider this in my current project :) Also it should be quite funny for the administrator, to control the system species acting against or for all the players, a nice fulltime job a lot of people dream of :)
back to the problem of AI. Also there maybe a solution to make the AI acting quite intelligent to any type of player / team actions, unless the AI is given a superior support in some kind, it is going to fail to keep players away from control the whole game, as real intelligence always beats AI, at least below the level of deep blue :) Even if it requires a 1000 player team, and players WILL form those teams, if it is required just to see what happens if the last fortress of AI falls.
So unless the game is getting restarted / resetted from time to time, i think there is no real solution to keep a (MMORPG as) RTS game lasting quite long. And i think that also the reason why there is no game out there, which can completely satisfy both point to be persistent AND always to acting "inteligent".
back to the problem of AI. Also there maybe a solution to make the AI acting quite intelligent to any type of player / team actions, unless the AI is given a superior support in some kind, it is going to fail to keep players away from control the whole game, as real intelligence always beats AI, at least below the level of deep blue :) Even if it requires a 1000 player team, and players WILL form those teams, if it is required just to see what happens if the last fortress of AI falls.
So unless the game is getting restarted / resetted from time to time, i think there is no real solution to keep a (MMORPG as) RTS game lasting quite long. And i think that also the reason why there is no game out there, which can completely satisfy both point to be persistent AND always to acting "inteligent".
Good point, JoeDB, but I think that if the entire community gets together and orchestrates a successful counter-offensive and manages to actually destroy the unending Swarm, you could torch the servers, demolish the buildings, fire all your employees and write a book on how to make the most spectacular role-playing community in the universe.
Hyberbole aside, I think you've hit on exactly the center of the problem with dynamic worlds: You can't really anticipate what the players are going to do to it. Some kind of human story-telling element is essential. I think that if the game is of adequate scale, the human moderation would be adequate to prevent total one-sidedness. If the players are showing extraordinary cooperation and dominating the AI beasties, then by all means bring in more beasties, or create an AI faction of Terrans to hassle the players from the homefront. Boost zerg AI in that region, claiming that Kerrigan is nearby and her proximity makes the cerebrates more effective.
If you can see the problems coming and have halfway decent writers and some nimble code, you could have all kinds of ways around problems.
On a side-note, I remember someone relating a story of an old MUD that was fraught with hacking and griefing. The administrators took it offline for a few weeks, and when it came back, they announced that a meteor had struck the gameworld. All the offending players' property had been annihilated, and the water sources were contaminated, and the world was generally boned. Many players quit, but the hardcore role-players stuck around, worked together to purify and replenish the world, and forged a new world and a new community for the game.
If someone could get just one-tenth of that sort of gameplay flexibility into a large MMO project, they'd probably get the Nobel Prize for Video Game Design.
Hyberbole aside, I think you've hit on exactly the center of the problem with dynamic worlds: You can't really anticipate what the players are going to do to it. Some kind of human story-telling element is essential. I think that if the game is of adequate scale, the human moderation would be adequate to prevent total one-sidedness. If the players are showing extraordinary cooperation and dominating the AI beasties, then by all means bring in more beasties, or create an AI faction of Terrans to hassle the players from the homefront. Boost zerg AI in that region, claiming that Kerrigan is nearby and her proximity makes the cerebrates more effective.
If you can see the problems coming and have halfway decent writers and some nimble code, you could have all kinds of ways around problems.
On a side-note, I remember someone relating a story of an old MUD that was fraught with hacking and griefing. The administrators took it offline for a few weeks, and when it came back, they announced that a meteor had struck the gameworld. All the offending players' property had been annihilated, and the water sources were contaminated, and the world was generally boned. Many players quit, but the hardcore role-players stuck around, worked together to purify and replenish the world, and forged a new world and a new community for the game.
If someone could get just one-tenth of that sort of gameplay flexibility into a large MMO project, they'd probably get the Nobel Prize for Video Game Design.
Basically, we're just rediscovering and agreeing with what the pen&paper RP community has known for ever... a dungeon is no fun without a (human) DM. Not an online-game-GM who is merely responsible for fixing glitches in the automated game world. Someone who can change the rules, keep things interesting, add a certain amount of life to the world.
As for the defeating-the-enemy situation, there are plentiful solutions. My fav. approach would be to announce that, for instance, the Zerg have been annihilated on Char, but Aiur still needs cleansing... and if all else fails the DM can announce that we've discovered a massive Zerg fleet assembling on the dark side of the moon, and that they've used targetted meteorites to destroy the planet's starports... for the amount of money they get per month from WoW, they could quite easily employ a dozen people (at $200k/yr each) to make artwork/story updates.
Damn, now I wish I had the requisite millions to start up my own ubercool company and make teh world's bestest MMORPG. I think I should use HTML. With variables. *runs off to the Help Wanted section*
As for the defeating-the-enemy situation, there are plentiful solutions. My fav. approach would be to announce that, for instance, the Zerg have been annihilated on Char, but Aiur still needs cleansing... and if all else fails the DM can announce that we've discovered a massive Zerg fleet assembling on the dark side of the moon, and that they've used targetted meteorites to destroy the planet's starports... for the amount of money they get per month from WoW, they could quite easily employ a dozen people (at $200k/yr each) to make artwork/story updates.
Damn, now I wish I had the requisite millions to start up my own ubercool company and make teh world's bestest MMORPG. I think I should use HTML. With variables. *runs off to the Help Wanted section*
umm, This was done with Wish, and the project got canceled due to unknown reasons (most likly monetary or not enough ppl playing). Simply put they had a system that had the following attributes:
1. A single shard so all players play on one world. This shard was going to be able to handle 10s of thosands of people at once (ie much more then 10 thousand, more like 30-40 thousand).
2. Economy was player driven. NPC shop prices were set based on supply and demand. NPC shops could run out of items, and could run out of gold. Players were encouraged to trade as well as produce their own goods for sale. Also anything sold to the shopkeeper is kept in the shop keeper inventory. Kinda like Morrowind, so that you could happen upon a rare item in a shop if another player happened to sell that item to the shop you were at. Shops also would get delieveries and gold to help balance out the possibility of shops being bought of all their goods or gold. This also simulated trade amoung the towns.
3. A skill system like UO was used instead of leveling like most MMORPGs. Also a player with level 50 in something was only 5 times better then a level 10. Most MMORPGs ahve level 50 exponential better then level 10. This linear level system was meant to help reduce grinding, and keep players on more even grounds. Though there was no PvP except in arenas.
4. There were a few simple errand quests that players could do if they needed money. this quests were the "fetch this" or "deliver that" type quests. None were designed to be something player would do often, in fact they were the side quests and were not even something you would do much of.
5. The meat of the game was the Live Content that was run by people hired to create content during the course of the game. They created quests, controlled npcs (including spawing monsters if need be, as well as communicating with players), creating items, etc. The live content would be quests that were unqiue and hand crafted by the "GMs". For instance stopping a plague, transporting a wanted criminal, killing a dragaon, etc. The quests could be completed by one group or player. This meant there was an actual changable world with a story. Players could decide to help an NPC that asks for help, actually talk with certain NPCs that were part ofthe Live Content (ie they were being played by "GMs" that were roleplaying). Players decided whether they would search for the cure to stop the plauge. Whether they would gather the ransom an evil overlord asks for, or find the cure on their own. The game also had a newspaper that described events going on (since quests could last multiple days depending on their scope). The newspaper would even mention players that helped with the quests when they were complete. Since only one player or gorup could complete the quest, they could become popular among other players.
6. There was also a social system in place to help players feel apart of a community. Basically it was three social circles players could belong to. The first was the town guild. Basically whatever town you start in would automatically make you apart of this guild. So right off the bat you were a part of a guild and had other players you could talk with that shared the same origin as you. great for roleplaying. The second are the society guilds, this are different organizations that were apart of the world such as: wizard, military, crafting, trading, religion, etc. These guilds have backstories, certain goals, and requirments for entry into the guild. Finally the third guild are the player guilds, which are like most MMORPGs. IE player run guilds that are totaly upto the players to create and run. The coolest part is that player guilds can alliance themselves with towns and each other so guilds can have political battles of controling towns and other things. This part was not fully implemented in the beta yet so I dont know how well it would have worked. Player run guilds can sometimes be elitist in who they select to enter the guild which leads to players not in guilds, or a bunch or small guilds. This is why the society guilds are important allowing players to enter a guild by completeing requirements and following what the guild goals are.
You should search goodle for interviews and articles on the game. The 3day beta was really awsome (yes the game was canceled 3days into the open beta). Probably the best MMORPG expierence I had. That game represents the future of MMORPGs, and eventually a company large enough will pull it off. Thoug hopefully they wont time their open beta during the first weeks of two major MMORPGs (ie World or warcraft and EQ2 in the case of Wish).
1. A single shard so all players play on one world. This shard was going to be able to handle 10s of thosands of people at once (ie much more then 10 thousand, more like 30-40 thousand).
2. Economy was player driven. NPC shop prices were set based on supply and demand. NPC shops could run out of items, and could run out of gold. Players were encouraged to trade as well as produce their own goods for sale. Also anything sold to the shopkeeper is kept in the shop keeper inventory. Kinda like Morrowind, so that you could happen upon a rare item in a shop if another player happened to sell that item to the shop you were at. Shops also would get delieveries and gold to help balance out the possibility of shops being bought of all their goods or gold. This also simulated trade amoung the towns.
3. A skill system like UO was used instead of leveling like most MMORPGs. Also a player with level 50 in something was only 5 times better then a level 10. Most MMORPGs ahve level 50 exponential better then level 10. This linear level system was meant to help reduce grinding, and keep players on more even grounds. Though there was no PvP except in arenas.
4. There were a few simple errand quests that players could do if they needed money. this quests were the "fetch this" or "deliver that" type quests. None were designed to be something player would do often, in fact they were the side quests and were not even something you would do much of.
5. The meat of the game was the Live Content that was run by people hired to create content during the course of the game. They created quests, controlled npcs (including spawing monsters if need be, as well as communicating with players), creating items, etc. The live content would be quests that were unqiue and hand crafted by the "GMs". For instance stopping a plague, transporting a wanted criminal, killing a dragaon, etc. The quests could be completed by one group or player. This meant there was an actual changable world with a story. Players could decide to help an NPC that asks for help, actually talk with certain NPCs that were part ofthe Live Content (ie they were being played by "GMs" that were roleplaying). Players decided whether they would search for the cure to stop the plauge. Whether they would gather the ransom an evil overlord asks for, or find the cure on their own. The game also had a newspaper that described events going on (since quests could last multiple days depending on their scope). The newspaper would even mention players that helped with the quests when they were complete. Since only one player or gorup could complete the quest, they could become popular among other players.
6. There was also a social system in place to help players feel apart of a community. Basically it was three social circles players could belong to. The first was the town guild. Basically whatever town you start in would automatically make you apart of this guild. So right off the bat you were a part of a guild and had other players you could talk with that shared the same origin as you. great for roleplaying. The second are the society guilds, this are different organizations that were apart of the world such as: wizard, military, crafting, trading, religion, etc. These guilds have backstories, certain goals, and requirments for entry into the guild. Finally the third guild are the player guilds, which are like most MMORPGs. IE player run guilds that are totaly upto the players to create and run. The coolest part is that player guilds can alliance themselves with towns and each other so guilds can have political battles of controling towns and other things. This part was not fully implemented in the beta yet so I dont know how well it would have worked. Player run guilds can sometimes be elitist in who they select to enter the guild which leads to players not in guilds, or a bunch or small guilds. This is why the society guilds are important allowing players to enter a guild by completeing requirements and following what the guild goals are.
You should search goodle for interviews and articles on the game. The 3day beta was really awsome (yes the game was canceled 3days into the open beta). Probably the best MMORPG expierence I had. That game represents the future of MMORPGs, and eventually a company large enough will pull it off. Thoug hopefully they wont time their open beta during the first weeks of two major MMORPGs (ie World or warcraft and EQ2 in the case of Wish).
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