Quote:Original post by MSW None of those games required huge teams to develop...and they got released on consoles once considered Next-Gen and have sold reasonably well...so apart from the lack of available dev kits, it's entirely possable for a small indie team to make a game for next-gen hardware...
You're kidding me, right? "Once considered next gen?" Yes, they were. What does that have to do with anything?
When it came out, 256-color VGA graphics was 'next gen.'
We're talking about the current next-gen, not the past stuff. The current next-gen which is a markedly different ballgame from your Dreamcast hacking.
You are being a bit short sighted. there is NOTHING remarkable about the current next-gen stuff that excludes it from the well established practice of history repeating itself.
Retro-ish 2D games like Bangai-O, Chu-Chu-Rocket, Gigawing and Gunbird 2 were released on that once next-gen Dreamcast system. That was a time when 2D game graphics were looked down upon by mainstream gamers even more then today. And the Dreamcast was a much different system then the SNES/Genesis consoles that could have easily supported those games had they been developed for them. So...besides the dev-kit issue...what is stopping other small teams from developing the same types of games for our current next-gen systems?
Robotron 2084 is a very old classic arcade game. Not only has it been emulated for the PSX, but now on the much more advanced PSX2...both consoles are light years ahead of the arcade technology the game originaly used...yet there is a market nitche that is still buying the new emulated version.
As always the more things change, the more they stay the same.
This is an interesting debate (may it continue), but i was refferring to current next-gen.
[email=wastedhours@gmail.com]-steve[/email]_______________________Freelance Game Journalist / Designer / Occasional Game Developer[GamingHours.com] [RandomlyAccessed]
Quote:Original post by MSW None of those games required huge teams to develop...and they got released on consoles once considered Next-Gen and have sold reasonably well...so apart from the lack of available dev kits, it's entirely possable for a small indie team to make a game for next-gen hardware...
You're kidding me, right? "Once considered next gen?" Yes, they were. What does that have to do with anything?
When it came out, 256-color VGA graphics was 'next gen.'
We're talking about the current next-gen, not the past stuff. The current next-gen which is a markedly different ballgame from your Dreamcast hacking.
You are being a bit short sighted. there is NOTHING remarkable about the current next-gen stuff that excludes it from the well established practice of history repeating itself.
Retro-ish 2D games like Bangai-O, Chu-Chu-Rocket, Gigawing and Gunbird 2 were released on that once next-gen Dreamcast system. That was a time when 2D game graphics were looked down upon by mainstream gamers even more then today. And the Dreamcast was a much different system then the SNES/Genesis consoles that could have easily supported those games had they been developed for them. So...besides the dev-kit issue...what is stopping other small teams from developing the same types of games for our current next-gen systems?
Robotron 2084 is a very old classic arcade game. Not only has it been emulated for the PSX, but now on the much more advanced PSX2...both consoles are light years ahead of the arcade technology the game originaly used...yet there is a market nitche that is still buying the new emulated version.
As always the more things change, the more they stay the same.
i think you have to realize that yes in theory the graphics, techniques, and hardware have all had an upgrade. for a moment however picture what this hardware does and what programmers have to bring to the table for their games to run smoothly on these pieces of hardware. most likely all 3 systems will be using multi-core processors. which means that programmers will now have to familiarize themselves with PROPER concurrent programming techniques. the graphic power of these machines are unreal (no pun intended) the amount of detail that can and will be expected to be put in these models are more than current teams can handle. the realism of physics and AI will have to be taken to new heights. We have to remember that most teams today can make a commercial quality game. The hardware gives them limits that they can meet. Tomorrow's hardware will need a brand-new set of programmers, artists, graphics artists. An indie group with that type of expertise in developing will be hard to find, much less put together.
Quote: the graphic power of these machines are unreal (no pun intended) the amount of detail that can and will be expected to be put in these models are more than current teams can handle. the realism of physics and AI will have to be taken to new heights.
Expected by whom exactly? The people who tell you only huge complex games like GTA, Halo, Final Fantasy and the like are worthwhile?
Take a deep breath and think about it...I'd be willing to bet my house, car, and entire life saveings that some new variation of TETRIS will eventualy find its way onto the current next-gen consoles...Additionaly there will CERTAINLY be 2D basied games like Dance Dance Revolution, Viewtiful Joe, Megaman, Metal Slug and Gradius V...NONE of which require uber graphics, physics and AI...NONE of which fully tap the power available on modern consoles let alone next-gen ones...and NONE of which require huge teams and resources to develop.
I said this once before, but it seems to have flown over peoples heads:
Quote: of course such small teams couldn't compete head to head with the likes of GTA, Halo, Final Fantasy, etc...but they certainly could take advantage of the market nitche currently served by Bangai-O, Chu-Chu-Rocket, and Ikaruga...
Now I ask you to PROVE me wrong...that there will never be any Tetris like puzzle games, 2D platformers, shoot-em-ups, DDR type games on next-gen hardware.
MSW: Don't get me wrong now. I do support your view that the current drive for realism in games eventually will burn itself out, and that developing a 2D based game without physics is as honorable as any project.
But.
I think that when you say "developing for next-gen" you don't just mean getting the game to run on a next-gen machine; you mean developing the software in a way that it uses most of the capabilities of the hardware. Otherwise you could make it for an older piece of hardware or for a standard PC.
It meakes no sense to develop software for a cutting edge machine if you're not going to use it's potential at all.
I think that the realism will burn itself out, however with the advent of Physics-Processing-Unit's, games will get more and more complex until we actually have a game that ties most genres up into one. Making it incredibly hard to develop games in the way that we are.
The creativity seems to be there, but the realism that an indie next-gen title will never work has set in.
Also, i know it was my post that started this, but it is slightly confusing with all the reference to 'Old Next-Gen'. Shall we say that the onset of Xbox360/PS3 be called 'Gen4'; Dreamcast/PSone be called 'Gen3'; and then working its way down.
[email=wastedhours@gmail.com]-steve[/email]_______________________Freelance Game Journalist / Designer / Occasional Game Developer[GamingHours.com] [RandomlyAccessed]
Quote:Original post by staaf MSW: Don't get me wrong now. I do support your view that the current drive for realism in games eventually will burn itself out, and that developing a 2D based game without physics is as honorable as any project.
But.
I think that when you say "developing for next-gen" you don't just mean getting the game to run on a next-gen machine; you mean developing the software in a way that it uses most of the capabilities of the hardware. Otherwise you could make it for an older piece of hardware or for a standard PC.
It meakes no sense to develop software for a cutting edge machine if you're not going to use it's potential at all.
I think this is more or less the point I was trying to make (albeit badly). A "next-gen game" isn't just a game that runs on the next generation hardware - it means a lot more than that. Massively increased production values resulting in something that uses the hardware to do things that you couldn't do before.
Richard "Superpig" Fine - saving pigs from untimely fates - Microsoft DirectX MVP 2006/2007/2008/2009
"Shaders are not meant to do everything. Of course you can try to use it for everything, but it's like playing football using cabbage." - MickeyMouse
Quote: the graphic power of these machines are unreal (no pun intended) the amount of detail that can and will be expected to be put in these models are more than current teams can handle. the realism of physics and AI will have to be taken to new heights.
Expected by whom exactly? The people who tell you only huge complex games like GTA, Halo, Final Fantasy and the like are worthwhile?
Take a deep breath and think about it...I'd be willing to bet my house, car, and entire life saveings that some new variation of TETRIS will eventualy find its way onto the current next-gen consoles...Additionaly there will CERTAINLY be 2D basied games like Dance Dance Revolution, Viewtiful Joe, Megaman, Metal Slug and Gradius V...NONE of which require uber graphics, physics and AI...NONE of which fully tap the power available on modern consoles let alone next-gen ones...and NONE of which require huge teams and resources to develop.
I said this once before, but it seems to have flown over peoples heads:
Quote: of course such small teams couldn't compete head to head with the likes of GTA, Halo, Final Fantasy, etc...but they certainly could take advantage of the market nitche currently served by Bangai-O, Chu-Chu-Rocket, and Ikaruga...
Now I ask you to PROVE me wrong...that there will never be any Tetris like puzzle games, 2D platformers, shoot-em-ups, DDR type games on next-gen hardware.
again you miss the point. yes there will be some 2D no one doubts that. and yes they will be made using a 3D API. your post almost implies that if you're an indie group and you want to make a game it has to be simplistic and 2D. if that's the case, you should stick with making games on the Dreamcast or PC. how many indie groups are going to flood the market with these niche games? in theory many. how many will actually get a deal and get published. in reality very few. and how many will actually make money? bottom-line very very little. again if you want to develop those types of games, basically 2D games, then indie groups might as well develop for the portables and cell phones. that's the market where they'll thrive. no publisher in its right mind will give serious thought to putting games like that on a next=gen system. period. unless it's from an established company of course.
Well, I feel that everytime anyone talks about next gen anything they always feel that its going to be some spectacular jump forward. However, that's not really how the software industry work. Game development, like any other form of software development, is an incremental process. Sometimes the increment can be so small that you really don't realize that much of a difference.
Taking an example from real life, if you look at yourself in the mirror everyday and gradually gained weight, like a pound a month, you really won't notice it as much as a friend who hasn't seen you in like 2 to 3 years. The same goes with software. We scrutinize games everyday for what they have and what they possess. It will get to the point where, yes, the next gen will be incredible, but will you notice it when it really hits?
So, in the end, it may not be impossible for indie groups to catch up, since the incremental process is still there. So, if they are already able to develop games for the current gen of consoles, there's no reason why they can't move forward to the next gen. The biggest change is usually just a difference in hardware and API. And in most cases, most games don't even use more than maybe 80% - 90% of a console's power before the next next gen hits anyways.
The great thing about console development, unlike PC, is that the hardware is fixed. The hardware may change once every 3 - 4 years, unlike the PC, which runs a 4 - 6 month cycle. So, this is actually a better environment for indie developers, since the specs don't change, so you have 2 to 3 years to work on something or change your development process to catch up. And usually by that time, the development on the system would be mature and much easier.
So, point is, consoles are a very special platform when it comes to development. Though they may be super powerful at heart, we aren't going to see people utilizing it overnight, so don't expect a sudden jump into the future. And also, from an interview I read, it seems only a hand full of developers, big or small know how to utilize the PS2 hardware properly, which is still current gen. So, don't give up hope on the current gen just yet either.
