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Goodbye windows, Hello Linux..

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As you can see I want to leave the windows enviroment and join the linux world ( as far as home use is concerned ). Currently this is what I have set up: HD1 80 gb( Primary Windows Pro Partition ) HD2 80 gb( NTFS Partition: Extra Storage ) HD3 80 gb( Suse 9.1 Currently ) My plans is to completely leave the windows world as far as home use goes. Why? I believe in open source software and this is my first step in proving it. There are 3 main things holding me back: 1. I barely know linux 2. I play some PC games and do not have Cedega ( and do not want to pay, why should I have too? ) 3. Microsoft Visual Studio 2003.net ( My personal preference for C++ programming and I really don't like any other IDE's ) What do you guys suggest? I have used Solaris 9 and really want to use Solaris 10, however I see no purpose of using it if it doesn't give me what I need ex: Cedaga and MSVS. Is there any other software I can use to play the games I need and Program in the MSVS Enviroment, I know your asking, why use MSVS if he wants to support Open Source, well... from what I hear it is Industry standard to use .NET for games and that's what need to know to get the job I want. Also, which version of Linux would you suggest to use? Which version is best supported, best documented and best for the new user but technical one at the same time. So far Ubuntu has provided me the most useful and right now on a daily basis I am repartitioning my drives with a new Linux OS trying to find the one I like the most. Thanks to all suggestions/comments and ofcourse flames :)

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Ok, first off this will probably end up in a flame war but as you are expressing your ideas i will express mine.

"1. I barely know linux"

Linux is not the easiest thing to use. I ran a personal lunix server for a few months and then switched it to windows simply because windows is just easier. This isnt an argument against your idea, its just me saying that I like to use what i am familiar with.


"2. I play some PC games and do not have Cedega ( and do not want to pay, why should I have too? )"

Now as a software developer i like to be able to feed myself and pay my rent. To me that is a good reason you should be paying to use my software. Why do you think there is no 'open construction' movements in building homes?


"3. Microsoft Visual Studio 2003.net ( My personal preference for C++ programming and I really don't like any other IDE's )"

So you are saying that windows meets all of your needs yet you want to switch operating systems? Since there is nothing stopping you from creating open source software on windows i see no reason for you to use Lunix.


"Also, which version of Linux would you suggest to use?"

The fact that linux has so many flavours and a total lack of standars is what turned me off of it. Well that and its lack of a registry.

Well thats my thoughts, hopefully it came off as constructive.

# Scott.h

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Absolutley, it came off constructive and appreciated! :)

Thing is, the way I feel about cedaga is this: I pay for my game, I may even pay monthly for my game, why should I have to pay even more money to pay it on a differnt operating system. Maybe what I'm thinking is this and you point is more then valid and better then mine :) but... If Linux for the most part is open source ( not just FREE ) why does the software used on it have to cost money, thats all I am asking. But yes your right, you deveolped it and if you want put that big sticker saying you have to buy it to use it! It's your right!

I understand where your coming from and agree, windows is so much easier to use and in all honesty I prefer it since I have so much experiance with it. But I want the experiance with Linux to view the world outside of Microsoft. It is simply there business style I am offended by that's all, but they run everything I currently have. :) Thanks alot, any other comments?

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It sounds to me like you are satisfied with Windows, but curious about Linux. I suggest you simply try installing Linux and getting a few programs running on it to get the feeling for it.

As TheDarkening mentioned, if you strongly beleive in the open source movement, there's nothing to stop you from creating open source software for Windows.

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In your first paragraph I think you ran in a circle so I am not going to comment on it.

If you want to play with linux (and it is definately worth playing with) then i strongly suggest creating a duel boot system or buy a cheapo system for like $100 to run it. If you want to run a web/email server I strongly suggest getting a second system.

As for Microsoft's business style, I am not going to deffend it one bit, other then I dont agree 100% with any politicians but I still vote.

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I've been using Linux for a wee while now, just on an old machine dualbooting with Win2K, no net connection. It's Fedora Core 3 I've got, by the way.

Windows 2000 is definitely easier (I'd say it even beats XP in many respects, it's more "Professional"), but Linux has a certain charm to it. It really is very nice to use as a change from Windows, even if you don't use it all the time. And it's not all that hard to use, it's getting more and more idiotproof all the time as people begin to write open source GUI's for things.

I can understand why you want to keep MSVS. Trust me, there's basically nothing in the way of decent Linux IDEs. There's one called KDevelop which is absolutely atrocious, don't touch it with a bargepole.

As for games, the little Linux desktop games are wonderful, they really are great fun. But to play your proper, retail games, you will have to pay for Cedega, and WINE isn't free to use either.

I do have some gripes about Linux though:

1) It all feels a bit cobbled together out of bits and pieces of random people's work, and there's very little standardisation between distros. But that's the beauty of open source, the diversity of it, so I can't really argue.

2) One thing that really gets me, and you will miss when you switch from Windows... no Task Manager! That REALLY irritates me, seeing as Linux Desktop environments take more CPU time than Windows, which could lead to crashes and you have no easy, obvious way of stopping rogue programs.

Hope that helps you,

ukdeveloper

[Edited by - ukdeveloper on May 31, 2005 4:08:41 PM]

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Speaking from a software developers standpoint, and also from the point a person who considers himself at least a slightly sensable philosophic mind, i must question what your standpoint and beliefs are on the future and reasonings from opensource. Be it from the stigmatic mind of the GNU's communist driven leader, or from the currently emerging commercial standpoint.

GNU's (or should I say Richard Stallman's) belief is the one stating that _ALL_ software should be free. That while there can be distrobution fees, that the software itself is free and can be distributed outside of the authors control, free of charge if necessary, or sold without notification or payment to the author. This is not (in reality) the belief of the majority of power linux users, though it is held by both pragmatics and people unable to afford normal software and its necessary associated fees. This system is wholeheartedly communistic, and hence, going against capitalism. If you remember your history books, this methodology fails. For the majority of people their is not as much of a drive to release software free without a second reasoning. While the GPL/Commercial licensing does do good for licensing of libraries, outside of middleware the GPL is a direct competition to people trying to earn their livings.

Now we go to the current state of linux, and the current state of opensource. This is where large companies help fund development of opensource projects to further advance them. Of course, there is a reasoning for this! These projects are either supplement their commercial projects, or are actualy a part of them. Oftain times they are even the basis or platform for propietary toolsets (ie: Eclipse). In this state money still flows, albeit people can build on the success and shared platforms and base code which (IMHO) is the REAL quality of opensource applications that keeps it thriving. When developers can implement shared code into (or ship them to suppliment their application) they can create better solutions for individuals and companies.

Now, this software you mentioned to emulate windows programs. It was developed by a group of developers correct? The developers spent their time and hours working on it, taking the necessary overhead to their pocketbooks. Unless you are using debian, many components of your system are probably done in this matter. Linux as a platform remains free, they did not change that, they developed software to implement something linux was not intended to do (emulate windows) and they deserve to be paid for it. Hence you deserve to pay for it. As an alternative there is the WINE project though its quality is rather questionable (though improving).

As for MSVC. .NET is not the future of gaming (yet anyways), and still C++ is what is big. But lets say for the hell of it I am completely wrong (as I well may be) look into MONO on linux. and there are compilers as well. There are also very good IDE's for linux. Just do some searching.

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I appreciate everyones comments thank you, I just don't want any bad flame wars coming from this. I don't think they will but since we're discussing Windows and Linux there is the greatest possibilty! hehe

Anyways, all you guys have great points in reference to both linux and windows, we all have our own opinions and by god thats they way it should be so I appreciate everyone staying simple on there explanations. I will continue to learn linux but also use Windows as my main machine. Hey i guess the greatest part about all this is that we can use both and we have the access to use both. Now if I worked for a linux distro company or microsoft that would be a different story, Newsweek "Microsoft employee gets fired for running Ubuntu on 10g partition" I can see it now lol, but anyway thanks a lot, appreciate your help!!

EDIT: BTW - I never said MSVS.NET was the future of gaming I was simply stating that it is for the most part industry standard software used for development. Again I say " for the most part " not "all". hehe

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Quote:
Original post by TheDarkening
Now as a software developer i like to be able to feed myself and pay my rent. To me that is a good reason you should be paying to use my software. Why do you think there is no 'open construction' movements in building homes?


I don't think you really understand open source. When you buy a house you pay for materials and the workers time - rightfully so. In exchange, you get the house, it is fully yours to change, improve, mess up - whatever you want. You do not have the builders saying that you can't paint your house or add a guest room!

Closed source software is like (perhaps I'm dragging the analogy into the ground) renting an apartment. You only live there, you can't change it. Now there is a time and place for both and nobody is saying you have no right to close your source - but open source is somthing that's good for developers, and I'll support it where I can.

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Quote:
Original post by ukdeveloper
2) One thing that really gets me, and you will miss when you switch from Windows... no Task Manager! That REALLY irritates me, seeing as Linux Desktop environments take more CPU time than Windows, which could lead to crashes and you have no easy, obvious way of stopping rogue programs.


top works wonders.

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(I'm bored, apologies in advance.)
Quote:
Original post by SiliconMunky
It sounds to me like you are satisfied with Windows, but curious about Linux. I suggest you simply try installing Linux and getting a few programs running on it to get the feeling for it.

Try a LiveCD even. Without a (relative) ton of RAM they're a bit slow, but they otherwise can give you a glimpse of what a Linux desktop (or, in some cases, recovery session) can be like. Check the FAQ for a couple recommendations.
Quote:
Original post by The Darkening
If you want to play with linux (and it is definately worth playing with) then i strongly suggest creating a duel boot system or buy a cheapo system for like $100 to run it.

Just don't blame Linux (or your distro) for the limitations inherent in said $100 system ;).
Quote:
Original post by PaulCesar
GNU's (or should I say Richard Stallman's) belief is the one stating that _ALL_ software should be free.

The Free Software Foundation's...
Quote:
Original post by PaulCesar
This system is wholeheartedly communistic, and hence, going against capitalism... While the GPL/Commercial licensing does do good for licensing of libraries, outside of middleware the GPL is a direct competition to people trying to earn their livings.

To make a obtuse analogy, the keeping of gardens would then be "communistic" as it goes directly against the potential of an oxygen production industry. Maybe open source (which free software is a part of, but not the whole) isn't a economic/political movement so much as a side effect of human cooperation. No need to relate volunteerism with the downfall of capitilism, it's just raising the base upon which it all functions :). Just because one can pay someone for something doesn't need a (legal, moral) solution with said payment is inherently worse.

Continuing my tradition of picking on the misphrased statements of others:
Quote:
Original post by The Darkening
Well that and its lack of a registry.

There's a couple registry alikes. They're not "universal", but they make up for that somewhat by not being misimplemented disasters such as Windows' :P.
Quote:
Original post by ukdeveloper
... WINE isn't free to use either.

WINE is "free" and "Free". Cedega (formerly known as WineX) isn't (kind-of). Transgaming is a very confused company :P.
Quote:
Original post by ukdeveloper
One thing that really gets me, and you will miss when you switch from Windows... no Task Manager!

There's lot of task managers :P. Seeing as top has been mentioned already: in GNOME, Applications -> System Tools -> System Monitor.
Quote:
Original post by ukdeveloper
That REALLY irritates me, seeing as Linux Desktop environments take more CPU time than Windows, which could lead to crashes and you have no easy, obvious way of stopping rogue programs.

I'm not sure what generalization or assumption to correct there :).

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Quote:
Original post by TheDarkening
Now as a software developer i like to be able to feed myself and pay my rent. To me that is a good reason you should be paying to use my software. Why do you think there is no 'open construction' movements in building homes?


Mostly because the cost of copying a construction is much higher than that of copying bits and bytes. :-)

I agree that we should get money for what we do though. This isn't incompatible with free software (insert long argument here).


PaulCesar: by your definition, groups of people helping each other are communist. Like say, GDNet... That you're using for free, instead of paying. Are you a communist?


Hope this helps.

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Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster

PaulCesar: by your definition, groups of people helping each other are communist. Like say, GDNet... That you're using for free, instead of paying. Are you a communist?


Incorrect.

GDNet runs advertising.

Advertising is used to persuade consumers to buy specific goods, purchase specific services, raise brand awareness, etc.

Consumers do indeed pay for those adverts, but it is an indirect payment: the cost of advertising, marketing and Public Relations is included in the cost price of the company's goods and/or services.

Therefore, yes, we _are_ paying to use GDNet. We're just paying indirectly.


--
Sean Timarco Baggaley

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I could have sworn that Linux had a Task Manager or something like it.. like df or something (i can't recall the command, its been like 5 months since i've last touched linux).

I took a college course in Unix (really a modified Red Hat Linux editted to act like Unix) and played with CD Bootable Gentoo, and i can say that Linux is really powerful. But, it's only powerful if you know how to use it.

Don't get Linux to support the Open Source movement, but use it because it would benefit you. Supporting Open Source by contributing to projects and helping support their communities would probably be much better at showing your belief rather than just moving to Linux.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Quote:
Original post by stimarco
Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster

PaulCesar: by your definition, groups of people helping each other are communist. Like say, GDNet... That you're using for free, instead of paying. Are you a communist?


Incorrect.

GDNet runs advertising.

Advertising is used to persuade consumers to buy specific goods, purchase specific services, raise brand awareness, etc.

Consumers do indeed pay for those adverts, but it is an indirect payment: the cost of advertising, marketing and Public Relations is included in the cost price of the company's goods and/or services.

Therefore, yes, we _are_ paying to use GDNet. We're just paying indirectly.


--
Sean Timarco Baggaley


If I stick code in GCC and Emacs to write "buy a GNU CD now" when invoked, do the free software people get to be called capitalists?

Sorry to be annoying like that, but the "free software = commies" FUD is really getting old. Just like McCarthism.


Hope this helps.

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a developer could make his programs open-source but still earn money for them. i think this kind of open-source phylosophy could work and the developer would be able to earn what he needs to survive (being a developer is a job, after all), as the sofware is open-source, there would be the positive aspects of it anyway.

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Don't want to pay for Cedega? Don't buy games that don't run on Linux. It is as easy as that.
Linux isn't easy to use. If you want to learn and understand Linux, I recommend you to install Gentoo Linux. You install Gentoo manually, no stupid graphical installer. Of course there is a very good handbook to guide you. This will help you to learn the basics. Gentoo is my favorite Linux distribution, and is very good for everyday usage. Because it is a source distribution, you compile everything yourself, meaning compiling Xorg + Gnome or KDE can take half a day on state of art machine. I think you should try Linux for a week, see if it suits you and only than throw Windows out of the window.
I think you will find that no Linux IDE is near to be as good as VC++ 2002/2003/2005. This is at least my impression. After getting used to VC++, moving to Linux tools is painful. In the summer I got a job and had to work in Linux only. I enjoyed the experience, but I was just as happy to return to VC++..

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Quote:
Original post by SumDude
I could have sworn that Linux had a Task Manager or something like it.. like df or something (i can't recall the command, its been like 5 months since i've last touched linux).


top

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Quote:
Original post by vNistelrooy
Quote:
Original post by SumDude
I could have sworn that Linux had a Task Manager or something like it.. like df or something (i can't recall the command, its been like 5 months since i've last touched linux).


top


ps -A

But KDE has a task/process manager. Just press CTRL_ALT_DEL!

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Quote:
Original post by Ilici
But KDE has a task/process manager. Just press CTRL_ALT_DEL!


On mine, that just fades the screen and brings up the "End session for... [Cancel] [Logoff]" dialogue box. And that's on KDE.

[Edited by - ukdeveloper on June 1, 2005 5:13:55 PM]

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Oh yeah I finally decided to install gentoo tonight. Just downloaded the AMD 64 Install CD and the Packages as well, wish me luck! Hopefully nothing bad will happen.... :-/

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Quote:
Original post by Simian Man
Closed source software is like (perhaps I'm dragging the analogy into the ground) renting an apartment. You only live there, you can't change it.
Not entirely true. Closed source software is like buying a condo, since you generally don't have recurring costs associated with ownership/use (though the idea of a subscription model for general-purpose software has been floated about for quite a while, albeit generally unsuccessfully). Further, the open/closed source division is an overgeneralization; there are commercial products that deliver source and grant you the right to modify the product for local use, but not distribute your changes.

These open/closed source debates are generally underinformed and unproductive. As end users or developers, consider the pros and cons of the licensing and usage terms of the product you wish to purchase/acquire/employ and make a decision as to whether or not to buy/use on that basis. Software acquisitions, in my opinion, should be on the basis of usability and economics, not ideology and/or philosophy.


As for the upside of open source, it is simply the best common store of knowledge. Open source serves as a repository of capability, and I think it should become a natural part of the lifecycle of all software. Initial innovation should, at the innovators' prerogative, be rewarded financially. Following that, once the capability becomes common place, the core functionality should be open sourced with a commerce-friendly license, enabling a subsequent generation of innovations to build upon them.

But that's just me.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Quote:

Oh yeah I finally decided to install gentoo tonight. Just downloaded the AMD 64 Install CD and the Packages as well, wish me luck! Hopefully nothing bad will happen.... :-/


I would strongly advise against that. Anyone suggesting that a n00b should install Gentoo, is most likely a troll, trying to discourage people from getting started with Linux. Gentoo is very good if you know exactly what you are doing. But if you are unfamiliar with Linux there is a risk that you will fail with the dual boot configuration and lose data.

So please, start with something that has a more user friendly install procedure. Try Fedora or Mepis for example.

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Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
Quote:

Oh yeah I finally decided to install gentoo tonight. Just downloaded the AMD 64 Install CD and the Packages as well, wish me luck! Hopefully nothing bad will happen.... :-/


I would strongly advise against that. Anyone suggesting that a n00b should install Gentoo, is most likely a troll, trying to discourage people from getting started with Linux. Gentoo is very good if you know exactly what you are doing. But if you are unfamiliar with Linux there is a risk that you will fail with the dual boot configuration and lose data.

So please, start with something that has a more user friendly install procedure. Try Fedora or Mepis for example.


Yes, I second that. I'm on Gentoo, but I've been using Linux for almost five years now. It's just too easy to run into problems.

It's a very good distribution, but not one to get started with.

Cheers,
Drag0n

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