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DarkThrone

Why is so hard to find anything useful?

67 posts in this topic

Well, it's mine...

Sometimes I pass so much time in front my machine that forget some points and so I post things that sound as a suplic. Sorry about that.

I am not Lord of True. But I think that Artificial Intelligence is a "simulation" of real intelligence. And for evolutive chain, logic was grown over a feeling base. Maybe build a Logic Simulation and after this put feeling simulation can work, but maybe not.

Thanks for Thinkin to mark your presence here. He ask me what Dreams are to real intelligence. I said, maybe I can be wrong, important. Dreams are in part, a way that brain have to calculate new possibilities without the senses and councioness. If you stop and see, mind are ever active. As I said, sometimes a problem make months until be magically resolved by a glimpse idea. This idea, on true, was be tested many times in brain and finnaly it find the answer.

The TURING TEST was real proof of that. If the principle of Turing's Test is the machine simulate perfectly the human conversation, maybe if feeling was part of simulation no people can really discover who is the machine, and finnaly it's over.

Maybe I'm not using the right words, because I am not a good English Speaker.

Almost forget: Occam's Razor is the query of the day.
Well, I am think that,s questioning a scientifical phylosophy is "down the hill", so I can't now.

And yes, I agree, the original topic is over, but by the way it's direct goes to a new discussion. So if any want post your opinions, I really thanks.
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I don't think it's hard to find things. It's just that you're not looking in the right places. This game site is the last one I would look up how our brain functions. I would scan medical sites first to gain fundamentals then look at programming sites to figure out how to code it. I would start with biology 101 that explains the cells and how they function, etc. Then look at medical logs that explain what happened to the subject when left half of the brain was cut off, etc. Basically, try to pose questions then experiment with objects to see how your ideas panned out. I don't have the stomach for this but it's fascinating science if you can get beyond the gross parts. If you want to learn how to paint you go to an artist. If you want to learn about our brain and AI you need to go to a doctor, or someone who has studied the brains of many animals, understands their physiology and learn from them. Our brain is a complex beast and there are many parts that work together in a certain way. You severe one small link and the brain is no longer intelligent. Heck, a mild chemistry imbalance and it spins it out of control. Why? Can it happen to your AI as well? Why not? How does child development influence the brain function? So a call to psychiatrist is in order as well to gain better understanding of why we are the way we are.
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this is the first thing I do.
And if you see, this site is also a programmers resource.

And also, even games like GTA don't have a powerful IA. If programmers work more on game IA instead of Graphics, it'll more compatible eith old machines and more fun.
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Quote:
And also, even games like GTA don't have a powerful IA. If programmers work more on game IA instead of Graphics, it'll more compatible eith old machines and more fun.


This is a tough argument. The GTA games are massive sellers; while improved AI may make the game better for some people, it seems rather well liked as it is

Instead of asking the dev team to spend more time improving the AI, what specifically would you ask for? What would you like it to do that it doesn't do already? Or what would you want improved?

[Edited by - BrianL on June 18, 2005 10:39:51 PM]
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Rockstar should focus on the gameplay issues which killed GTA3 for me. The AI was fine in that game I thought.
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I just ask for dev team a fun game, as BREATH OF FIRE 3 is. Simple as a Snes game ( for PSX ) and 10x more fun than another titles with full graphic quality.

Games are made of fun, Movies are made of graphics. Even a pong game can be fun.
Compare the 32-bit Castlevania: Symphony of the Night with Castlevania: Lament of Innocents and say me truthfully which is more fun.
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Quote:
Original post by DarkThrone
I just ask for dev team a fun game, as BREATH OF FIRE 3 is. Simple as a Snes game ( for PSX ) and 10x more fun than another titles with full graphic quality.

Games are made of fun, Movies are made of graphics. Even a pong game can be fun.
Compare the 32-bit Castlevania: Symphony of the Night with Castlevania: Lament of Innocents and say me truthfully which is more fun.


Castlevania: Symphony of the Night

===Plenty of reading materials===

C++: A Dialog - Programming with the C++ Standard Library

Introduction to Object-Oriented Programming Using C++

Data Structures and Algorithms with Object-Oriented Design Patterns in C++

A Programmer's Guide to the Mind

Introduction to Machine Learning

Heuristic Algorithms

Ghostscript etc. for viewing postscript files.

Good luck.

[Edited by - Daerax on June 19, 2005 12:21:04 AM]
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"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. When I have clarified and exhausted a subject, then I turn away from it, in order to go into darkness again; the never-satisfied man is so strange if he has completed a structure, then it is not in order to dwell in it peacefully,but in order to begin another. I imagine the world conqueror must feel thus, who, after one kingdom is scarcely conquered, stretches out his arms for others."

--Johann Carl Friedrich Gauss
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Quote:
Original post by DarkThrone
this is the first thing I do.
And if you see, this site is also a programmers resource.

And also, even games like GTA don't have a powerful IA. If programmers work more on game IA instead of Graphics, it'll more compatible eith old machines and more fun.


And because we are programmers, we only used the tools needed to get the job done. Just like the fact that you don't cut your steak with a chainsaw, you don't need super powerful AI to make a game enjoyable. And to a certain extent, a super-intelligent AI, or one that is smart enough, will actually make the game less enjoyable, since it would be unbeatable.

Unless, you want something that's "only as smart as a human player," but then you run into, "well, how smart is the average human player?" Then someone will ask, "what is average?" And even then, you can just get away with a simple modelling agent, that models somebody's play style. A simple expert or rule based system, nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
Games are made of fun, Movies are made of graphics. Even a pong game can be fun.


I don't think Pong uses any AI what so ever. It doesn't need to. If it did, and even in that situation, the paddle only has to perfectly follow the ball, then the game will only end in you losing because of fatigue. I'm not sure if that would be fun.
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Thanks for Daerax for links, are helpful.

Imagine for example, a Arkanoid game. What do you prefer? A 3D-version, Full of graphic effects, rotation and all, or a 2D simple, with thousands of powerups, giant chambers and lots of add to make more challenge?

Think on a game, for example, as GTA. On GTA vice-city, two IA leaks are very notable. The first, on hospital. Do the cheat of weapons and kill some people, after hide behind the ambulance. The police stand at grass wall, and you freely throw grenades while you want and NEVER do the police pass and catch you there.

The second, IN FRONT OF POLICE DEPT. Do the same thing, but in front of the door. No police will leave the buildind in a heroic act of finish the carnage you was made(almost 3 hours of massacre until I leave it).

This thing takes all the fun. Limits are the fun of a game, and more limits are more challenge.

Imagine a game where you are a agent (METAL GEAR SOLID is good but IA can be better) and for all the game, a wrong step will be HUNT-UNTIL-THE-END. Can you survive? It's the fun. But it's my preference, each one have a one.


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Just wanted to mention to Darkthrone that if you are serious about any AI stuff, you had better learn some higher level mathematics and get comfy with it. It is also a great aid for other fields to.
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Just wanted to mention to Darkthrone that if you are serious about any AI stuff, you had better learn some higher level mathematics and get comfy with it. It is also a great aid for other fields to.
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The problem, Sagar_Indurkhya, is that mathematics is not the key to IA, only a tool to build it.

I just refer it on this topic. When I said, I'm not so radical, in point to "Ah, mathematic is not necessary". On, true, it's fundamental. But, taking same key again, is not where the work can be started.

If YOU want to take serious about IA, awake early. Look in your garden the insects. Look when the flowers change. After, look all live that grow and die around you. So, you think "Can I really do a algorithm that's can simulate this?". Poetic, isn't it?

Very ones don't take serious a man that said "I want do a big project". It's normal about human beings. But if you really want, it's not a difficulty, it's a challenge. The live is a game. The more challenge in the game of life is find the way to win more fast, when you can play it a single time.

Ah, only to remember, the Occam's Razor, that is kicked some posts ago.
WeirdoFu, I think YOU don't understand the principle of it. Occam's Razor principle is "On two possibilities, the more simple one are the right one."
Because this I discarded it. And, ah, I'm not a STARTER. Two years of research of code, phylosophy concepts, almost 300 pages on notes, etc. I look for a more efficient way to code what I want to do, nothing more, nothing less.

And yes, I like to post and discuss with friends my opinion.
And not, I am not a scientific PhD.
And yes, I really have a bad, bad English.
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Quote:
Original post by DarkThrone
If YOU want to take serious about IA, awake early. Look in your garden the insects. Look when the flowers change. After, look all live that grow and die around you. So, you think "Can I really do a algorithm that's can simulate this?". Poetic, isn't it?


Insect and swarm intelligence: almost completely math based. Examples, Ant Colony Optimization, Ant systems, and particle swarms.

Plant Growth: Can be modelled with the Fibonacci sequence...

Alot of these already have mathematical models behind them. Given the proper parameters, people have already simulated many of this stuff. There's really no intelligence involved.

But I guess we're approaching the problem from two different angles. You seem to take a more top down approach, while most everyone takes a more bottom up approach. Personally, I've had my fair share of trying to build castles in the sky. Got me into trouble quite a few times, so I'm more a ground up person now. I'm not saying your approach is wrong, but just sort of have to warn you that you should not be blinded by the complexity of the final result and assume that the process itself is complex.

For example, termites in affrica are known to build huge complex nests that are mounds of dirt up to 10 feet tall. The mounds stand up vertically and contain a complex web of passage ways. Researchers were baffled as to how such a complex structure can be built by simple insects like termites. Some assumed there was a complex behavior involved. However, in the end, research shows that the final complex mound was created based on a simple probabilistic pheromone reinforcement method. Each termite will randomly lay down some dirt around the initial starting point, and use pheromone to make it stick. Then the termites that come afterwards will have a tendency to drop dirt where there is a higher concentration of pheromone. This pocess continues as the mound grows and the pheromone deposit is reinforced and a concentrated mound starts to appear near and around the center of the nest. Since the pheromone near the center of the nest are more often reinforced, the pheromone in outer regions evaporate causing further concentration and upward build. This continues for a fixed amount of time and you get your vertical mound where no two are alike internally, but equally complex. There's no complex blue print involved, just one simple probabilistic reinforcement model. Nature works in simplistic ways, and that is the beauty of it.

So, just kind of something to watch out for as you go along. You seem to have many good ideas, but sometimes thinking too much will blind you from the answer, which is why sometimes answers just sort of appear when you're not really thinking about it. Its tunnel vision that blinds us, mentally and physically, from the true path.
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Really, at some point, I agree. Holes on my mind happen somewhile.

I was working very much and I am a bit stressed because I'm not found the point yet. Nothing against you, other way. You are so helpful and mark presence.(Very social).

I created some algorithm that simulate basic instinctive feelings. Fear is almost ready. The problem is that I can't think in a reliable way to connect all small algorithm in a complex system. Love, for example, hard to explain, don't it? No, it's not. Love is simply a instinctive function that uses the principle "If you have a thing that is yours, keep it forever.". It's the second algorithm that I'm working.

Literal as insect concepts are the concept of the human brain. If two human Being are created EXACTLY with the same way and EXACTLY live in same conditions both will have EXACTLY the same personality. But it's Physic about Inertia, so modifiers can be applied.
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DarkThrone, here are a couple of things you should keep near the forefront of your mind when considering Artificial Intelligence and this forum in particular:

(1) This is a game development website and so, it is not concerned with the creation of intelligence (artificial or otherwise) but rather the illusion of intelligence in artificial systems (namely games). It is not necessary that game AI actually enact intelligence, be it human or otherwise.

(2) Artificial Intelligence is not solely concerned with replicating or explaining human intelligence. Pschology seeks to explain human intelligence, while strong AI seeks to replicate it by artificial means. Many AI researchers and practitioners are interested in the more general question of how to act intelligently. Others are concerned with issues in, for example, knowledge representation andlearning. There are not too many AI researchers out there who are researching consciousness. There are certainly more neuropsychologists and psychologists doing that.

(3) You are correct in that Mathematics is but a tool, just as physics is a tool. It is useful for modelling and explaining our Universe. Mathematics though is a language (for example, it is the language of choice of many physicists when explaining their theories) and within the artificial intelligence community, it is a useful language for conveying ideas, algorithms and even models of 'intelligence'. There are certainly other languages in use (e.g., logic), but you'll find that to be successful in understanding and contributing to AI, you'll need to understand mathematics. (This is not to suggest you don't already understand it... but don't cast it aside as having nothing useful to say about AI).

(4) My final point is this; looking at life around you (other people, insects, animals) won't lead you to solutions in AI. It will merely give you examples of behaviour that you might want your AI to embody. Creating AI is a lot harder than describing AI (i.e., the outward behaviour it creates).

Cheers,

Timkin

(P.S. Note, it's 'Timkin', NOT 'Thinkin'... and you make it sound like I lifted my leg against a tree and 'marked my territory' :P )
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Ok Timkin... (Timkim is your name?) Sorry about grammar. Lot of hours in front a computer can be this somewhile.

Do you know Project Wonder J?

And if you refer to I thanks for your presence, it's because suppose the moderator have more important things to do instead of reply topics of a frustated programmer. (To avoid confusion , ME = frustated programmer).

I just timkin (sorry...i'm joking) thinkin' that a game can be fun with a big enhanced IA. And is not just me, 30% of posts are to NON-related game IA. On true, I post this because all mathemathic formulas are so complicated, and I say this many times. I mean that theory will can more simple (something next to ALGOL) not only to begginners, but also to people that have no free time and need a clear, easy understable theory.

And with your respect and trying to offend you, you should see:

1. It's a game development site, where IA is part of.
2. The forums are separated for topics.
3. People have the right of read what topic they want.
4. Human intelligence is IA related.

And to finish I'd really loved to play this RPG games during 72 hours without sleep. The controller drop of my hand many times (for this was so hard to finish).

Daerax post me useful links, really. With pacience I finally found a way to continue. If you see, many replies query me about the thing I post here. I am just reply them in the form what I know, and with all info I gather. If it's useful, each one can decide by yourself.




[Edited by - DarkThrone on June 20, 2005 6:23:46 AM]
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We are constantly learning new things about insects. For example, those african termites build airconditioning inside their homes so it's not as simple as dropping dirt randomly. Also, I was watching ants the other day on tv and we don't even fully understand how they communicate chemically and it seems they have entire language we don't get. There is so much to learn that I don't think we have a closed book on it. Math starts to make sense once you put it into good use since it's a tool and every tool not used is useless and soon forgotten.
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Darkthrone :

Mathematics, as has been said, are just a tool. But to put it a better way, they are a language, and just like any language, if you learn it well, you will open up new horizons. For instance, take you English. It's a bit broken, but because you speak it and understand it, you can post to this forum, and hopefully learn some things from the exchange. You could always stick to Portuguese and I am sure you could find resources, but because of the extra language, you have access to so much more.
Well, it's the same with Mathematics. I am not terribly keen on the subject, but when I am reading one of those Neural Networks texts and the author starts rambling using Mathematical notation, it comes handy, and it allows me to learn more than if I stuck to simple English.

Now to counter this, and that's something I am particularly adamant, having the eperience of teaching; the fact is that to explain something, you don't need Mathematics, if you are good enough. Maths are useful for modeling a problem, but when you are trying to explain a concept to someone, I don't see the particular reason why one couldn't make the effort and try to explain things in proper English.
Again, it's a question of target audience, I suppose.
Amusingly, I would say the same goes for giving sample code, as opposed to explaining a concept in plain English...
Writing sample code, writing a formula, to me it's just being lazy (as a teacher).

On a different note, I cannot understand why everytime I read about AI (and that has been for the last five years I have worked on this damned MSc) I see so little mention of non AI books. I mean, sure, you get the odd Biology book when the subject matters, but seriously, my general impression of the field is that despite the potential for cross referencing, the norm is more to self referencing...

Personally, I have read a few little gems over my Research that didn't have much to do with AI. But interestingly enough, they were the ones that fired me up the most. Stuff like Animal Behaviour, Swarm Intelligence (how various insect species create their nests, brilliant stuff)...

I even picked _The Selfish Gene_ by Richard Dawkins completely by accident as I was browsing the Biology section of the school Library, and God knows this is probably the coolest book I have read in the last few years.

Another I picked while going through the airport is _Guns, Germs and Steel_, again, you'd think it's completely non related. But the first thing I thought of when I read it was how this could be a great source to write a Civilisation game, but with an emergence twist.

Good God, even browsing through Neurology textbooks from 30 years ago, I had more ideas popping in my head than while reading through Neural Networks books... there are so many aspects of Neurons that are left out when you use a Mathematical Model, it's quite a shocking thing.

Anyway, I am rambling. But I generally agree with DarkThrone, there isn't a lot of really useful stuff around. I know, I have searched for quite some time.
Don't misunderstand me, though. There are quite a few useful people, and people who are adressing this situation. If I had had the books that are out there now 5 years ago, I certainly would have finished that damn MSc... [rolleyes]

Ah well
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Really are few people helpful ( not useable, that means to some that "We want to use them, instead of keep a little help" ). My English is really broken, I pass last 12 years on a self-learnin journey, with books, music and some basic concepts learning on school.

What really bore me is the fact that VERY complex formulas are used to do it.

And too, only with this post REALLY some help me. Three posts and no responses are given.

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Well, if you are self taught, your English is certainly better than my Portuguese [wink]
Still, if you improve it, you will definitely find it useful.
Plus it's always funny to have a better grasp of the language than the average native speaker, which isn't very uncommon once you start frequenting forums populated with illiterate teenagers (no, no, not Gamedev. Well, OK, maybe the Lounge, sometimes [grin] )
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Well, let me tell a story.

One day, I have a dream. In your homes, people have computers.
People that lives alone had in your computer a good listener, a friend, someone to trust. People that live in family had in your computer a good tutor to your children. Scientists had in your computer a real apprentice.

"I, Robot" and "Ghost in the Shell" cites a theory that I don't know if is real-based or not. "In a system, ramdonly protocols that approach that we called "soul"."

The Ghost in the Shell theory exists on true? What I find it, if exists?

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Machines can have soul if they are designed that way. Robots of future will have soul designed out since we can't have slaves. Besides they could kill us easily if we give them soul and enslave them. That's too dangerous. So we'll have servants but not emotional ones internally, only simulated externally to be more pleasing to humans.
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Huh?

Well, I'll take care of my toaster, or it attacks me with a deadly burning loaf slice. Sorry, I have to say...

Take it serious, sorry about point this question. I just say "People have your computer a friend". You are a slaver? You slave your dog? Slave your mother? Slave your girlfriend?

Why you just slave a machine? God slave you?

If you drive, take care, your car may be nervous...


well, I just ask for "ghost in the shell" theory, with no intentions of promove a way to use it, only to gather info.

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