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meeshoo

graphic technology question

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hi there. well, as i'm thinking to compete in this contest, the first questions after a quick research on the technologies available, i want to ask a question: do u have any idea how a geforce2 GPU is like? which are it's capabilities, what kind of shaders does it support (i guess pixel shader 1.0, but what about opengl? does it support opengl 1.4 (that's it GLSL 1.0) or just vertex and fragment program extensions). Which is the tris/second rate? or do you have any link to some specific document? For example, if i'll use ogre3d, how well it would perform on such a video card, since if i'm making an ogre3d tutorial about shadows i find myself at 40 fps on a x800 xt video card. Please feel free to post anything interesting about this quite old technologies(i've jumped directly from riva tnt to radeon, so i missed the geforce2's glory :))

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GeForce 2s do not support any DirectX pixel shaders. However they support vertex shaders in both OpenGL and DirectX (but software emulated - it's still quite quick though). On OpenGL they support basic Register Combiners which allow you to do some basic pixel shader-type stuff. Standard OpenGL texture combiners (combine, dot3, etc) are also supported.

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hi. thanks for info. well, then if it will change, i'm not going to think on this anymore, but concentrate on game design. thanks a lot.

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If we include special effects that require 2.0, but also have a fallback to 1.1 if 2 is unavailable, will the judges still see the effects? I mean, will the judges test our games on multiple hardware configurations, including the newer graphics cards?

Also, will we be disqualified if we raise the minimum requirements or just a penalty when being judged?

Maybe this is a little presumptuous, but I would really like to take advantage of version 2.0 pixel shaders for special effects.

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Feel free to implement higher shader versions so long as you provide the fallbacks. Make sure you mention that your game supports higher graphics capabilities, and we'll do our best to get a capable machine for it (no promises though).

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Quote:
Original post by superpig
Quote:
Original post by skittleo
Can we assume vertex and pixel shader 2.0 support?


No. Only version 1.1.


That's a bit unfair though for OpenGL devvers, the limit is too low. DirectX minimum requirement is 9.0, and for OpenGL is 1.1,ie unextended(not even multitexturing,heck not even clamp_to_edge modes). What's the harm in just setting the minimum hardware to GF2 and the ATI equivalent?

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hi. well, i'm agreeing with mikeman. this is pretty unfair because i love doing graphics in opengl and don't have any idea about directx graphics(never touched it,because i always thought opengl is simpler). This limitation makes me to think more and more about a middle-ware, like ogre ore crystal space. I think ogre uses some simple shaders written in CG, and that's all. don't need to bother anymore about what is available and what is not, and focus more on the game design.

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Quote:
Original post by mikeman
That's a bit unfair though for OpenGL devvers, the limit is too low. DirectX minimum requirement is 9.0, and for OpenGL is 1.1,ie unextended(not even multitexturing,heck not even clamp_to_edge modes).

He's talking about the shader model, not the OpenGL version.

[Edited by - Sneftel on June 23, 2005 7:33:59 PM]

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Is this saying we have to use DX9? I don't think so but these people are confusing me... I could use the Win32 GUI if I wanted, or DX3 right?

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Original post by d000hg
Is this saying we have to use DX9?
No.

Quote:
I could use the Win32 GUI if I wanted, or DX3 right?

Yes.

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Original post by skittleo
I would expect a fair number of people to use DirectX 8 too, because VC++ 6 became no longer usable in 9.


Actually, IIRC it was usable until the December 2004 release (you can use October just fine if you pick up the extras package).

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Original post by skittleo
Good point. I remember that being the case.

I had trouble getting my programs to run on other machines when they were compiled with Visual Studio 2005 Beta 2. As a matter of fact, they would not run at all because "the local machine settings have been changed," IIRC. Have you ever seen this?


The VS2005 beta is really not intended for production-level use. I wouldn't recommend using it for the 4e4 project as such, and neither would Microsoft.

The compo will most likely be over before the full version is released.

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Although dx9 is a requirement, i don't see why not use dx 8.1, because this version was used with geforce2's generation cards. and, from what i see, only the graphics has changed in a more radical way in dx9. Anyway, that's not my domain :). i'll stick to opengl. Has anyone used ogre3d till now? Because i'm curious about it's performance. It has very nice features and it's very easy to use and a lot of support, but i don't know about it's performance. Still it has a bug (even in it's latest version) when i'm using opengl to render terrain a lot of holes appear between terrain squares. What do you know about Crystal space. Anyone can make a comparision between these to engines (the graphics part, because i've heard crystal is a full game engine)?

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Quote:
Original post by skittleo
Nik02-

Thanks man. I guess I'll code on trials of VC++ 2003. Either that, or wait until VC++ Express comes out.


If you use standard coding practices, you could technically write most of the code using the beta. It's only during the deployment phase when you'd get serious problems with it, if the beta IDE works for you otherwise.

Also, check that the beta license allows for other types of development than testing, if you choose to use VS2005 beta.

I heard that the express packages should launch at approximately same time as the professional and team suites - if this is the case, the express edition may not work for you either for this project. I'm not sure if I can comment on the release schedule more accurately due to the NDA I've signed.

Anyway, good luck with the competition! Expect strong rivalry from yours truly [wink]

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Original post by meeshoo
Although dx9 is a requirement, i don't see why not use dx 8.1, because this version was used with geforce2's generation cards.


Geforce 2-generation cards run just fine with DirectX 9, it's just that they can't use the new features of D3D9 as compared to D3D8. Direct3D 9 is easier to use than Direct3D 8, so it isn't a disadvantage for anyone (except if you are forced to develop with Win98).

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Original post by meeshoo
Although dx9 is a requirement


Please people, stop deciding that DX9 is a requirement. Go back and read the contest page. It says "Suggested Minimum System Requirements". That means when you make your game, it should be able to run on the described hardware/software setup in order to be judged. If your game came in a retail box, you would find those specs (or lower) listed as the "minimum system requirements" to run.

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Aye. You can always target a lower minimum spec than what we described - you're only taking risks if you target something higher than it.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Quote:
Original post by Michalson
Quote:
Original post by meeshoo
Although dx9 is a requirement


Please people, stop deciding that DX9 is a requirement. Go back and read the contest page. It says "Suggested Minimum System Requirements". That means when you make your game, it should be able to run on the described hardware/software setup in order to be judged. If your game came in a retail box, you would find those specs (or lower) listed as the "minimum system requirements" to run.



Then shouldn't that be a Maximum not minimum system requirement. I think that's why people are confused.

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Quote:
Original post by Nik02
The VS2005 beta is really not intended for production-level use. I wouldn't recommend using it for the 4e4 project as such, and neither would Microsoft.


Oh great... there goes my project out the window...

Can we still use it, if we like? I've already started, and it's in it, though I can convert to 6.0 if I have to, I'm not using .NET.

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Quote:
Original post by Oberon_Command
Can we still use it, if we like? I've already started, and it's in it, though I can convert to 6.0 if I have to, I'm not using .NET.


If you can get your program to run on our machines without us needing to do anything special you're OK. Identify the issues skittleo was seeing and fix them, and you're fine.

However, we won't install the .NET 2.0 Framework on our machines if it's still in beta at the time. .NET code created with the VS2005 beta all uses the 2.0 framework, AFAIK, so if you plan to submit a .NET project with it then you're gambling that the framework will be released in time.

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