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Vanquish

An innovative MMO hand-to-hand system?

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Ok. No MMO to date has done a decent hand-to-hand fighting system. And lets skip the whole part about how lag and timing wouldnt allow one. Then skip the part where you talk about the balance issues versus other forms of damage. Ok. Imagine your system is as follows: > players can mix and match styles from 3 different styles: brawling, martial arts, and submissions/throws > all styles have damage moves, stun moves, drop moves, and block moves. Ok my problem is the actual mechanics of the damn thing. My choices are: >push icons on screen >key-combos (a+b+x = side kick) >some heretofore undescribed method I just dont feel like icons on screen are fast enough and key combos are a bit unweildy. Any thoughts? Past games that have gotten it right? Would it be too much to expect MMOers to attach a PS2-type controller to their pc for the sake of better gameplay? Im listening. [Edited by - Vanquish on July 17, 2005 8:49:04 PM]

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I can't imagine doing it without a gamepad. I mean, you can't even hit a 3-key combo on Windows, can you? Unless you don't mean simultaneously doing it.

I guess it could be possible on a keyboard, though. Maybe pressing Tab could target your enemy, then R could set the camera onto a good view to keep the enemy in sight. Leaving you with say.. Q, W, E, A, S, D for action keys which can be used for basic attacking/defending or combo things. And of course the arrow keys for player movement. Oh and Spacebar for jump.

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How deep do you want this to be? Super Smash Brothers had a reasonably sophisticated combat system with only a very few buttons in different combinations. If you could assign a move to each of perhaps a dozen combos of inputs, you'd have twelve moves "equipped" in a fight.

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Was it ultima underground or some recent game that had a magic system where you literally had to draw the rune that cats sthe spell with your cursor on screen. So, what if your combat system is based on that? So, you execute a move by sort of drawing on screen with your mouse cursor. The more complex the move, the more complex the drawing required. It would then make response time less an issue, since powerful moves take longer to execute anyways. It also opens the possibility of a modifier system where you can build complex moves from basic ones by combining the glyphs.

Just a wild thought.

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Quote:
Was it ultima underground or some recent game that had a magic system where you literally had to draw the rune that cats sthe spell with your cursor on screen.


I never played the ultima series but Black and White had such a system.

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Thats a little more than I think players would be willing to do for melee combat I guess.

I suppose the key-combo thing will have to suffice...and players who really want to do it can get a gamepad.

Sigh...is this the first sign that it will fall into disuse? I suppose we'll have to have events that get people into it.

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I was just thinking you might want to consider a combination of the icon and key combo thing. Basically say you have eight icons surrounding the player each representing a different type of attack and corresponding with the keypad or something else. You could then go deeper with each button press until you have a specific attack.

The problem I have with most key combos is they mean nothing to me, why should high kick, high kick, low punch, low punch produce a throw? With this system, the first level could be type of attack (punch, kick, throw, guard), the second level be location (high, low, left, right, etc), the third be strength vs speed, etc. Then your attack set would be more logical. Example below


Locations correspond to:

7 8 9
4 6
1 2 3

First press

blank kick blank
guard throw
blank punch blank

Second Press

highleft high highright
left right
lowleft low lowright

Third Press

Equal Stronger Strongest
Faster blank
Fastest blank blank


So to get a strongest kick to the head, you would press 8, 8, 9.

This just seems like something that would be easier to understand and use consistantly.

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Quote:
Original post by Drethon
I was just thinking you might want to consider a combination of the icon and key combo thing. Basically say you have eight icons surrounding the player each representing a different type of attack and corresponding with the keypad or something else. You could then go deeper with each button press until you have a specific attack.

The problem I have with most key combos is they mean nothing to me, why should high kick, high kick, low punch, low punch produce a throw? With this system, the first level could be type of attack (punch, kick, throw, guard), the second level be location (high, low, left, right, etc), the third be strength vs speed, etc. Then your attack set would be more logical. Example below


Locations correspond to:

7 8 9
4 6
1 2 3

First press

blank kick blank
guard throw
blank punch blank

Second Press

highleft high highright
left right
lowleft low lowright

Third Press

Equal Stronger Strongest
Faster blank
Fastest blank blank


So to get a strongest kick to the head, you would press 8, 8, 9.

This just seems like something that would be easier to understand and use consistantly.




Just to comment on this interface.

This Happens to actually be an unbelievably fast way to traverse farily complicated menus.

My expierence withit comes from NWN. After a while it becomes very easy to issue 4 or 5 commands, each 2 or 3 levels deep, in less than a second.

The draw back of course is some serious hand ache.

Any veteran data entry person would completely PWN.

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Actually Im really liking this idea.

first press = type of attack
second = location
third = strength

What Im figuring out is that a number-pad or gamepad based combo set up is probably the best (as opposed to keyboard combos). The programmers will have to make sure that the input is from numberpad keys.

It also leads me to wonder, should the aim of the hit just be straight ahead or should it go for a location? I.e. why aim at all?

The other question becomes, should the power of the hit spend stamina so that 6 high kicks at full force expend half your stamina, while one sweep kick at low force hardly drains you at all.

Wow. Good discussion going here.

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My thoughts as far as aim is that the guard would have the same area idea. If the player got it dead on, they would always block the attack, if they were close the player may block the attack depending on skill.

As far as stamina, I prefer the idea that the strongest attacks are the slowest but the fastest attacks are the weakest instead of stamina.

I also feel a system like this would be flexible enough to go beyond just these there levels, I just have no idea right off hand what other levels would be considered. I think it could be really good for a sword fighting game where the stratigy tends to be a bit more complex...

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Seems kind of strange to use a combo system with a numpad, I can imagine seeing something like "To perform a strong round-house jump kick at your enemy's head just type Spacebar + 1 + 6 + 3 + 8." Not as elegant as the console/arcade fighters make it with the stuff like "Jump + Quarter Counterclockwise Up + High Kick"

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Well is a numberpad so different from a gamepad?

It doesnt require new equipment and it can give versatility.

What % of gamers have joysticks? Perhaps a joystick could be added into the mix. Ohhh I just had an idea for bobbing and weaving using a joystick.

Hmmmm. So many decisions.

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