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TravisL742

Xbox 360, Ps3, Nintendo Revolution Coding

111 posts in this topic

If that is accurate, then sony is talking out their mouth and their ass at the same time.

How hard would it be for somebody to write a boot loader to circumvent copy protection, and execute code arbitrarily? Answer, about as hard as it would be to buy a blu-ray dvd burner, or write a program to rip content off disks.

Will we see linux for the PS3? Who knows, but if we do, it will be severly limmited.
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Well as far as Xbox goes i know Microsoft is keen to push their XNA archetict to help developers understand the code of the system. But since the next gen systems are going to be very different hardware wise, porting multi-platform games could be a challenge.
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Quote:
Original post by kodeninja
I'm going to focus on the PS3 for a second here.

I've heard from various news sites that some (all?) PS3 will be coming with linux pre-installed on its harddrive or you can buy a hard drive with linux pre-installed for the PS3. Not too clear on how that works...

I was also reading through some cell processor stuff(look specifically at part 3) which states that they have had Linux running on the Cell processor. Further more they are allready expanding GCC so that it incorperates compiling for the cell arch.

Therefore I ask whats to stop someone from simply createing a linux-based PS3 game? They have GCC and an OS to develop on. Perhaps, it won't be native like store bought games, but its definatly giant leap from a 10,000$ dev kit to a 300$ ps3...

Anyone else thought about this?

Theoretically, maybe. But Sony has been using the bad-sector method of copy protection, which, correct me if I'm wrong, works pretty well. Plus they would need to be able to compile for the Cell architecture and I doubt that will be available to the common programmer soon.
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Original post by kodeninja
Therefore I ask whats to stop someone from simply createing a linux-based PS3 game? They have GCC and an OS to develop on. Perhaps, it won't be native like store bought games, but its definatly giant leap from a 10,000$ dev kit to a 300$ ps3...
Anyone else thought about this?


What's to stop them? The simple little detail of not being allowed to make it in the first place. It's their console and unless you pay the licensing your game will never see any possibility of being sold. If your talking about trying to make some games to run on a modded console or something maybe that will be possible, maybe not, but if it is, it's not something you are going to be able to sell.
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Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Is it still a "rumor" that Nintendo Revolution will allow homebrew games to be made on it? Or has that been squashed?


Here is the article in question.
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Im working with / on PS3 dev now, believe me, a teen hobbyist isnt going to cut it.
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Original post by Anonymous Poster
Im working with / on PS3 dev now, believe me, a teen hobbyist isnt going to cut it.


Will your NDA allow you to discuss what development tools you are provided with?
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Original post by PnP Bios
Quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
Im working with / on PS3 dev now, believe me, a teen hobbyist isnt going to cut it.


Will your NDA allow you to discuss what development tools you are provided with?



Without breaking NDAs, stuff already in the public domain should give you enough of a clue [smile] (NDAs usually prevent discussion of anything that's not already been officially released in the public domain):

1) Sony buying SN Systems (www.snsys.com), makers of Pro-DG (probably the most widely used compiler/debugger for PS2). Press release here: http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/pdf/050721ae.pdf

2) nVidia GPU in the PS3: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=5839 - "Our collaboration includes not only the chip development but also a variety of graphics development tools and middleware, essential for efficient content creation."

3) OpenGL ES available for PS3: http://www.khronos.org/opengles/adopters/adopterslist/ "The Sony Playstation 3 will support OpenGL ES." (BTW: "support" is an interesting word, in a Dreamcast & D3D kinda way...)
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Quote:
Original post by samuraicrow
Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Is it still a "rumor" that Nintendo Revolution will allow homebrew games to be made on it? Or has that been squashed?


Here is the article in question.


Quote:
Original Post by Nintendo article
A dynamic development architecture equally accommodates both big-budget, high-profile game “masterpieces” as well as indie games conceived by individual developers equipped with only a big idea.


For all I know, that could mean there's lots of middleware and it's very easy to program for. Well granted I interpreted that after reading it a few times. And yes, I read that when it first came out. I was hoping to hear some updated, official, and explicit news on the indie front. Oh well.


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Quote:
Original post by kodeninja
Therefore I ask whats to stop someone from simply createing a linux-based PS3 game? They have GCC and an OS to develop on. Perhaps, it won't be native like store bought games, but its definatly giant leap from a 10,000$ dev kit to a 300$ ps3...


Not having GCC for the Cell processor (sure it exists, but can you get it)? Not having any knowledge of the machines architecture (drivers, addresses etc)?
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Original post by Palidine
Anyway, prototypes of the dev kits are only available to a small number of the major publishers. Inside those publishers engineers are struggling to figure out how to code for them. Basically it's a paradigm shift into highly threaded application programming for the new games.


Diviso Et Impera
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Quote:
Original post by kodeninja
Therefore I ask whats to stop someone from simply createing a linux-based PS3 game? They have GCC and an OS to develop on. Perhaps, it won't be native like store bought games, but its definatly giant leap from a 10,000$ dev kit to a 300$ ps3...


A lack of a video card driver from nvidia. The open source "nv" drivers are somewhat lacking compared to the offical closed source ones from nvidia.
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Original post by Palidine
The short and sad answer is the hobby programmers cannot make games for any of the new consoles coming out. To make a game you need a license deal with sony, nintendo or microsoft and you need dev kits which I assume will run about $10,000 each.

It kinda sucks but that's the way the industry is going. =/


I have to agree that a hobby developer is probably not going to be making any console games. But just to keep the dream alive i'll point you in the direction of Alien Hominid - a game that started life out as a web based Macromedia Flash game, but made it to the PS2 and Gamecube.

However, a story like this is the exception to the rule.
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In terms of hobbyist PS3 development, I think things are looking quite positive.

Ken Kutaragi, the head honcho at Sony Computer Entertainment, has talked in a number of interviews now about fostering an open platform with PS3 where the community can come in and make software for it. He wants that to happen to encourage software development for Cell. He views it as much as a computer as a games system.

I think the only catch would be that you won't be able to commercially distribute any games you make for it, as obviously Sony wants to keep the licensing structure in place for that kind of software.

What we know is:

1) Sony is seriously considering pre-installing Linux on every PS3 hard disk, and wants to allow for open community development on it.

2) IBM and Sony are "open sourcing" Cell - they very recently release detailed technical documentation aimed at potential Cell programmers, and it's available on IBM's site here:

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/cell/

That should be your first port of call if you're interested in programming Cell. Later on in the summer they're even going to freely release Cell emulators for different platforms to let you start coding for it before you get hardware. There's no doubt in my mind that if Sony put Linux on PS3, a compiler would be available for Cell on it.

3) The question would then be re. graphics APIs. They're using a variant of OpenGL ES, and although they're not compelled to make it freely available, I think they would. NVidia already makes its tools and Cg compilers etc. freely available for download, so it wouldn't be a massive leap to make them freely available for PS3 as long as Sony said "OK".

Just remember also, they did this exact same thing with PS2, just with a limited number of units, so I don't think it's a big stretch to think they'll do the same with PS3, but perhaps on a bigger scale this time.
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Hi TravisL742,

I can hardly believe how negative some of the posts here have been! Travis, if you are serious about making games, all you need is passion & devotion. I'll admit that there are not many 14 year olds out there who are likely to stick out the tough times during game development, it's a rather idealistic goal, but who are we to say it's not possible? To those who posted negatively, perhaps Travis is the one 14 year old who can prove just how wrong you are?

I have been developing games since the 80's, started on the 8-bit NES, I've worked with teams large & small. I can tell you with conviction that smaller teams are more fun, more collaborative and likely to create far more innovative product than a 100+ team.

It IS possible for tiny teams & individuals to convince the likes of MS that a project is worthy of them bestowing dev kits, you do NOT have to be funded by a large publisher, I know this for a fact. Finding the right people to talk to within MS, & Sony (Nintendo, not so easy just yet) is not as difficult as you might think, infact individuals from both can be found at various small indie game conferences around the U.S. at the moment (friend of mine from MS will be at the Indie Games Conference (google IGC) next week, with dev-kits infact, hoping to find the next bright spark with a great game idea & the passion to pull it off.

Travis, if you want more info please email me at fnbrit at hotmail (I will be out of country next Weds for 3 weeks, so email me before or don't expect a response for 3 weeks).

fnBrit, flamer retard retardent.

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programing for xbox 360 and xbox is c and c++ the only diff is the compiler compiles a xbe file, that you put on your xbox to work go to http://www.xbdev.net/tuts/tuts.php,
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I remember reading about a number of PS3 dev's switching to the XBox 360 due to sony demanding some very strict quality standards. The most realistic way of really getting to develop on one of those next gen consoles is to work for a company making titles for them.
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Sony have always demanded very strict quality standards, you simply can't get your game to market (in the US, its a little easier in Europe) if it is not competative with the current leader in the genre you are targetting.

Microsoft are a little more leniant but do still want to have a say in who gets dev kits so they are cherry picking concepts they like and that have some chance of coming to fruition.

Nintendo...not really too much trouble getting through quality standards, if you can get approval status you can pretty much develop anything you like, finding a publisher who wants to fork out the up fronts, for the expensive duplication is sometimes a problem...but getting approval status is not as easy as it used to be and you need to be financially viable to even be considered.

HP
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PEOPLE of gamedev

Here is the 'hallelujah' that will answer all of our hobbyist prayers!!

http://www.xbox.com/en-us/livearcade/default.htm

If you check out the list of games here u'll see that many of them are titles commercially available online (either to play for free or to buy) and have been for a while..

Surely this is the perfect avenue for hobbyist devs to create exciting and interesting content with the possibility of not only widespread but worldwide distribution and marketing all handled for you..

All you need is some time, effort and a good idea and i'm sure you could easily bang together a title that would sell in the bucketloads once X360 gets out onto the market..

Now all we need to find out is how one would approach MS with an IP in the hopes of publishing and distribution via the Xbox Live Arcade..
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Indies yes, hobbiests no.

You'd still have to fork out for the devkit etc. not to mention convince MS that you are capable of delivering a decent product.
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Well MS has said that you can emulate 360 games on PC hardware, so maybe there will be an option to ommit the actual 360 debug hardware and just get the SDK for visual studio instead.
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Original post by goalied00d
Well MS has said that you can emulate 360 games on PC hardware, so maybe there will be an option to ommit the actual 360 debug hardware and just get the SDK for visual studio instead.


Emulation isn't hardware and the MS guide (linked above) is a guide for developers wanting to get a headstart before they get hold of the devkits. I doubt MS would let anyone deploy a product on Live Arcade without a whole heap of verification or accept any product for verification that hadn't been developed using their hardware.

Not to kill dreams but if you have the skills, business plan and are willing to show you can make good games (RealArcade, Yahoo Games etc etc) that sell then MS would probably be interested in letting you develop for Live Arcade.
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Jsut going back a page to Anon who said small, low budget teams can't do anything potentially AAA

http://www.projectoffset.com

Malal
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I really hope that Microsoft's XNA doesn't force us to use C++ like the XDK did. MS appears to be trying to make it hard on us strait C programmers.
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