No, it's that the players of those games think faster than you! :P
Ever watched a proffesional Broodwar game?
Gameplay or Story in RPGs?
Quote:Original post by Daniel Miller
The two most popular games, Broodwar and Counter Strike, have no story at all.
Umm, neither of those are RPGs [smile]. I can't think of a popular (non-MMO)RPG that didn't have a story of some sort.
And I'm pretty sure Starcraft:Broodwar had a story.
Personally, I think RPGs should focus on story, because I'd like my character to be able to have some discernable long-term effects on the world they exist in.
I think good gameplay is a lot easier to create than good (open-ended) stories though, so the most successful RPGs are heavily focused on gameplay over story-telling. World of Warcraft is a completely static world with regard to the player, for instance.
I think good gameplay is a lot easier to create than good (open-ended) stories though, so the most successful RPGs are heavily focused on gameplay over story-telling. World of Warcraft is a completely static world with regard to the player, for instance.
I see the trouble here is what is meant with the word "GAMEPLAY." Basically its used in two different ways. One is valid for argument, the other is not.
The first one is for game features. How you do combat, How things are done, and quite frankly, what the GAME side is like.
The second one is more along the lines of how OFTEN you are playing while in the game.
The first one is not affected by the story. Your story should NOT be an excuse to make a crappy game.
The second one..Thats where you need to balance. You don't want to spend too much time involved with the story when you want to be playing. But at the same time you don't want to play forever just to get the next bit of story done. So that's where the careful balance is needed.
Ideally you're gameplay AND your story need to be good. Neither one should be an excuse to skimp on the other.
The first one is for game features. How you do combat, How things are done, and quite frankly, what the GAME side is like.
The second one is more along the lines of how OFTEN you are playing while in the game.
The first one is not affected by the story. Your story should NOT be an excuse to make a crappy game.
The second one..Thats where you need to balance. You don't want to spend too much time involved with the story when you want to be playing. But at the same time you don't want to play forever just to get the next bit of story done. So that's where the careful balance is needed.
Ideally you're gameplay AND your story need to be good. Neither one should be an excuse to skimp on the other.
I agree with some of the other opinions expressed, that gameplay is more important than a plot to a certain degree in a role-playing game, but without any plot, (or at least a semblance of one), the reason for the gameplay in an RPG is almost non-existant.
The whole point of an RPG is to have the user playing the role of a character, (or a group therof), through (hopefully) a variety of situations, which causes the character to develop in as many ways as possible fully or partially chosen/influenced by the player. It's the input the player has in the character development that makes an RPG what it is. You can have a game with a plot and character development that the player has no control over, but than it would be an adventure game, not an RPG.
Darren Tomlyn
www.ic-musicmedia.com/DarrenTomlyn
My (MMORPG) game idea:
http://www.ztgd.net/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=10&MessageID=5203
The whole point of an RPG is to have the user playing the role of a character, (or a group therof), through (hopefully) a variety of situations, which causes the character to develop in as many ways as possible fully or partially chosen/influenced by the player. It's the input the player has in the character development that makes an RPG what it is. You can have a game with a plot and character development that the player has no control over, but than it would be an adventure game, not an RPG.
Darren Tomlyn
www.ic-musicmedia.com/DarrenTomlyn
My (MMORPG) game idea:
http://www.ztgd.net/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=10&MessageID=5203
I feel that I should throw in my penny as well, considering I mostly play RPGs.
Personally, I feel story is more important than gameplay. Yes, you may have a great combat system, but if your story and presentation of that story is really bad, then you've lost half the hook. Its the story that usually keeps me hooked anyways. Best example, that I use alot, I played through Suikoden 4, which I felt had the worst gameplay ever to just get to the story.
Its not true that MMORPGs don't have stories. I play alot of FFXI. The reason being that it has a story. It doesn't just have local stories related to quests, there is also a global story that differs slightly in point of view based on your starting nation. Though most people don't really care much about the global story since its usually tedious and requires coordinating large parties at time spending hours to complete, but I feel that Square-Enix put alot of thought into it. To date, I don't think they've implemented any new feature without some sort of story behind it.
So, story is possible in MMORPGs, its just whether players are interested in it or not. Most non-Asian players I've met don't really care about story in MMORPGs anyways. It may just be I'm in the wrong crowd.
Personally, I feel story is more important than gameplay. Yes, you may have a great combat system, but if your story and presentation of that story is really bad, then you've lost half the hook. Its the story that usually keeps me hooked anyways. Best example, that I use alot, I played through Suikoden 4, which I felt had the worst gameplay ever to just get to the story.
Its not true that MMORPGs don't have stories. I play alot of FFXI. The reason being that it has a story. It doesn't just have local stories related to quests, there is also a global story that differs slightly in point of view based on your starting nation. Though most people don't really care much about the global story since its usually tedious and requires coordinating large parties at time spending hours to complete, but I feel that Square-Enix put alot of thought into it. To date, I don't think they've implemented any new feature without some sort of story behind it.
So, story is possible in MMORPGs, its just whether players are interested in it or not. Most non-Asian players I've met don't really care about story in MMORPGs anyways. It may just be I'm in the wrong crowd.
Quote:Though most people don't really care much about the global story since its usually tedious and requires coordinating large parties at time spending hours to completeSee now I wouldn't class that as a story, or even part of one. The world itself doesn't change as a result of traversing the "global story" (else how could others do it). One defining feature of stories is that things *happen*. If you look at what actually happened in most MMORPG "stories", you'll see that they amount to a bunch of characters receiving some item upgrades. Exciting stuff..
I don't think it's even a question to be considered. Gameplay and story don't have to conflict. Turn up the volume on both.
Quote:Original post by Argus2Quote:Though most people don't really care much about the global story since its usually tedious and requires coordinating large parties at time spending hours to completeSee now I wouldn't class that as a story, or even part of one. The world itself doesn't change as a result of traversing the "global story" (else how could others do it). One defining feature of stories is that things *happen*. If you look at what actually happened in most MMORPG "stories", you'll see that they amount to a bunch of characters receiving some item upgrades. Exciting stuff..
Seems you've never played FFXI. For the most part, people don't participate in the stories because most times you get nothing more than a higher rank, or a little money, which amounts to nothing. Sometimes advancing the story gain you access to new areas in the world, which can be seen as "your" world view changing.
One problem with worlds changing due to advancement of story in MMORPGs is that everyone is in a "shared" world, so you really don't want one player's story advancement to affect others' gameplay experience (like you said). So, as long as the world doesn't change, it isn't a story? Now, I really have to disagree with that. A story doesn't have to change the world "itself," it can also change a "world view." The "world view" is how the players see the world and what they see in the world. This can be done in MMORPGs, and if its written with enough depth, I don't see why you can't say its a story.
It's true, MMORPGs, the big titles, nowadays lack story. They've tossed out things that facilitate story, and story itself for automated repeatable quest chains which can never be actually woven into the story of the world, after all if the badguy is Van Cleef and 1000 people have taken his head, where does that leave the story?
I do think that MMORPGs can have story, and that there can be mechanisms for players to alter the world to a very minor degree, but it takes work and probably has less of a financial payoff than simply adding more content for the powergamers to devour.
Really, the fact that MMORPGs are all gameplay and no story, and the added fact that the gameplay usually isn't even exciting makes me dread for the genre. This is the formula, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. After all, stimulating gameplay isn't pulling a monster from a bunch of them with a bow, and then standing in a face off for over a minute while you watch your character auto attack it.
Really, if an MMORPG managed to consolidate the fast paced, interesting combat in City of Heroes, the RP features of Ultima Online, the overarching plot and GM involvement of Asheron's Call, and the finesse and beauty of World of Warcraft, we'd have the ultimate MMO*RPG*. Right now most of the genre can't be typified as anything beyond an MMOG.
Worlds need to be more than a stagnant stage for the grind or roleplaying, and truth be told World of Warcraft has perfected that angle. The world IS simply a stage for a game of go out and kill stuff and level. Roleplaying is very hard since there is no utility at all for RPers to work from, and there is no overarching plot or events. This makes a stagnant, static world that feels like a stage, and thus games like this cannot be typified as an RPG, no matter how many "quest chains" they have that contain story which you may never use outside your personal experience anyway for fear of story clashing and ultimately the universe imploding.
I do think that MMORPGs can have story, and that there can be mechanisms for players to alter the world to a very minor degree, but it takes work and probably has less of a financial payoff than simply adding more content for the powergamers to devour.
Really, the fact that MMORPGs are all gameplay and no story, and the added fact that the gameplay usually isn't even exciting makes me dread for the genre. This is the formula, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. After all, stimulating gameplay isn't pulling a monster from a bunch of them with a bow, and then standing in a face off for over a minute while you watch your character auto attack it.
Really, if an MMORPG managed to consolidate the fast paced, interesting combat in City of Heroes, the RP features of Ultima Online, the overarching plot and GM involvement of Asheron's Call, and the finesse and beauty of World of Warcraft, we'd have the ultimate MMO*RPG*. Right now most of the genre can't be typified as anything beyond an MMOG.
Worlds need to be more than a stagnant stage for the grind or roleplaying, and truth be told World of Warcraft has perfected that angle. The world IS simply a stage for a game of go out and kill stuff and level. Roleplaying is very hard since there is no utility at all for RPers to work from, and there is no overarching plot or events. This makes a stagnant, static world that feels like a stage, and thus games like this cannot be typified as an RPG, no matter how many "quest chains" they have that contain story which you may never use outside your personal experience anyway for fear of story clashing and ultimately the universe imploding.
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