Well I'm actually considering scratching and starting over, simply because its VB and the stigma attached to that language, even to non programmers who just spew out the same smacktalking that some programmers like to while no even understanding what they're saying.
I'm also not quite sure if it does what I want. See, this was more an exercise in finalizing my client making abilities more than anything else, and in that I was succesful. I know enough about the client, and server logic, to be able to tell people how something should be or should be done. I've been fiddling with some code in C# for servers, and I have to say it's just really hard to get my mind around the networking issues and the threading issues and the like: I don't have extensive knowledge there.
What I'd prefer is to start from scratch, finally make a real design document for a real game, not something to tinker on for practice more than anything else. Then hopefully attract people and myself stick to utility programming (yes, I've done programming in a lot of fields, and VB6 lends itself quite well to fast utility programming :)) and the artwork and managing things. I'm not sure if that's a too lofty goal, but I do know that in the pixel artist community I hang around they tend to go by the rule "talented artists are harder to find than talented coders".
If someone else did the client as well, that means it could be in C++ and potentially be better, faster, stronger, etc. Not that VB6 can't do the job, I'm sure its just easier to do in C++ if you're actually fluent in that language. Doing the client in C++ would also hold the advantage of graphics libraries like SDL and portability. I'd prefer to use SDL over DirectX7. All later versions of DirectX get rid of the DirectDraw API and consolidate it into one big jumbly, hard to work with for 2d API that's also just plain slow compared to DirectDraw, but fact is DirectDraw is flawed in many ways and won't ever be getting better. Using SDL would probably fix all that.
But first I suppose need an interesting setting and a world, some concept art, a beefy design document, and a page with my work jumbled all across it to show people that I do have the know how.
Or is hoping that I can focus on the art side of things (which I frankly am better at) while other people tackle the client/server and me just doing utility programming on the side hoping for too much?
PS: It's nice to hear opinions from other people who do this for once. :) Very helpful.
Indy MMORPG development, can it be done?
It most certainly can be done. I can think of a few successful indie MMORPGs off of the top of my head. Runescape, Tibia, Dransik, to name a few.
In my own experience, what I have found to be the center of a successful MMORPG is progress, of course, you need progress in order to get the job done. Talent is nice, but even the less talented can do their best and always get help later from others. Original ideas are nice, but that usually only affects the popularity of your product, not whether or not you can finish.
So, regardless of the talent of you and your team and whether or not your ideas are good, you need people that are dedicated enough to keep up the progress of your game. If you choose to lead them, you need to ensure you hire people that have proven their ability to progress. Hire those who have work to show you that proves they can maintain enough progress to complete something.
As long as you continually progress, you WILL finish what you start. Just make sure everyone involved is shooting for the same goals as everyone else. ;)
In my own experience, what I have found to be the center of a successful MMORPG is progress, of course, you need progress in order to get the job done. Talent is nice, but even the less talented can do their best and always get help later from others. Original ideas are nice, but that usually only affects the popularity of your product, not whether or not you can finish.
So, regardless of the talent of you and your team and whether or not your ideas are good, you need people that are dedicated enough to keep up the progress of your game. If you choose to lead them, you need to ensure you hire people that have proven their ability to progress. Hire those who have work to show you that proves they can maintain enough progress to complete something.
As long as you continually progress, you WILL finish what you start. Just make sure everyone involved is shooting for the same goals as everyone else. ;)
It may sound strange, but from personal experience i would recommend you to go 3D. While it may sound hard, in the long run is better and easier when it comes to some stuff (especially if you want to add some eye candy :-)).
I also recommend you to forget Visual Basic for various reasons and stick to C++ for speed and portability reasons :-). Something that will help you with writing tool software is BSGUI GUI, an OpenGL and SDL-based GUI library i wrote (and still writing) for developing my tools. Currently i use it mostly in two tools:
Immortal Editor - the world editor for Undead Engine, my 3d game engine and
Slashy2D Editor (aka SlashEd) - the map editor for Slashy2D, my 2d game engine :-)
Also i would recommend you to use SDL and OpenGL: both are more than enough to be used as a base to create a very good game :-).
Designing server/client games may be a bit hard, but there is plenty of information at the internet on how to do it properly :-).
In any case, if you think you'll need any help, drop me a mail at badsector at slashstone dot com.
EDIT: if you -or anyone else- wants BSGUI, mail me to send you the latest WIP which fixes some bugs and changes a bit the API...
I also recommend you to forget Visual Basic for various reasons and stick to C++ for speed and portability reasons :-). Something that will help you with writing tool software is BSGUI GUI, an OpenGL and SDL-based GUI library i wrote (and still writing) for developing my tools. Currently i use it mostly in two tools:
Immortal Editor - the world editor for Undead Engine, my 3d game engine and
Slashy2D Editor (aka SlashEd) - the map editor for Slashy2D, my 2d game engine :-)
Also i would recommend you to use SDL and OpenGL: both are more than enough to be used as a base to create a very good game :-).
Designing server/client games may be a bit hard, but there is plenty of information at the internet on how to do it properly :-).
In any case, if you think you'll need any help, drop me a mail at badsector at slashstone dot com.
EDIT: if you -or anyone else- wants BSGUI, mail me to send you the latest WIP which fixes some bugs and changes a bit the API...
If you'd be interested, my mmorpg could use an artist. And of course your previous development experience would be a welcome plus.
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=334886
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=334886
Author
Well I have personal objections to going for 3D:
- I want to make an MMORPG that captures that nostalgic look and feel of oldschool console RPGs. (although more advanced due to advancing technology probably) This is one of the major and foremost design principles, and I don't feel you can do that kinda thing in 3D. This is a target audience that has yet to be really catered to in MMORPGs, and I know for a fact that just about everyone I know in gamer circles would -definately- appreciate such a game.
- Artists are hard to find, 3D artists are harder to find, and talented volunteer 3D artists are as far as I know damn near impossible to find. Considering I excell at pixel art, and not 3D art, it makes sense to capitulize on the fact that I can do a lot of high quality art myself, as well as having other pixel artist contacts who I might ask to work with me later, when there's something to show to convince them to.
- I think 2D is more conducive to certain features I'm planning. Plus, I always did prefer the overview 2D in an MMORPG offers versus 3D. Not to mention that making 2D engines ARE as a rule easier to do than 3D engines.
So, really, unless a miracle happens and a few talented 3D artist volunteers and an engineer for a 3D engine fall into my lap, I doubt I'll be revising the 2D part of the game. ^^; There's just certain things about 2D that fail in 3D, and vice versa, and personally I favor the 2D approach. There's too much of a 3D craze without me contributing, IMHO.
- I want to make an MMORPG that captures that nostalgic look and feel of oldschool console RPGs. (although more advanced due to advancing technology probably) This is one of the major and foremost design principles, and I don't feel you can do that kinda thing in 3D. This is a target audience that has yet to be really catered to in MMORPGs, and I know for a fact that just about everyone I know in gamer circles would -definately- appreciate such a game.
- Artists are hard to find, 3D artists are harder to find, and talented volunteer 3D artists are as far as I know damn near impossible to find. Considering I excell at pixel art, and not 3D art, it makes sense to capitulize on the fact that I can do a lot of high quality art myself, as well as having other pixel artist contacts who I might ask to work with me later, when there's something to show to convince them to.
- I think 2D is more conducive to certain features I'm planning. Plus, I always did prefer the overview 2D in an MMORPG offers versus 3D. Not to mention that making 2D engines ARE as a rule easier to do than 3D engines.
So, really, unless a miracle happens and a few talented 3D artist volunteers and an engineer for a 3D engine fall into my lap, I doubt I'll be revising the 2D part of the game. ^^; There's just certain things about 2D that fail in 3D, and vice versa, and personally I favor the 2D approach. There's too much of a 3D craze without me contributing, IMHO.
Quote:Original post by Shanira
I'm also not quite sure if it does what I want. See, this was more an exercise in finalizing my client making abilities more than anything else, and in that I was succesful. I know enough about the client, and server logic, to be able to tell people how something should be or should be done. I've been fiddling with some code in C# for servers, and I have to say it's just really hard to get my mind around the networking issues and the threading issues and the like: I don't have extensive knowledge there.
What I'd prefer is to start from scratch, finally make a real design document for a real game, not something to tinker on for practice more than anything else. Then hopefully attract people and myself stick to utility programming (yes, I've done programming in a lot of fields, and VB6 lends itself quite well to fast utility programming :)) and the artwork and managing things. I'm not sure if that's a too lofty goal, but I do know that in the pixel artist community I hang around they tend to go by the rule "talented artists are harder to find than talented coders".
I don't know much about server programming myself, but if you are really having trouble with it, I would caution you about trying to make a detailed design document. If you don't know what you are doing with the server, you may accidentally create a design which calls for miracles from the server programmer. I would suggest either continuing to learn more about server programming yourself, or finding someone to help you a bit with that part of the design document.
Quote:If someone else did the client as well, that means it could be in C++ and potentially be better, faster, stronger, etc.
Faster, certainly, unless the programmer sucked.
Quote:Not that VB6 can't do the job, I'm sure its just easier to do in C++ if you're actually fluent in that language.
Very few things worth doing are easy in C++, unfortunately. It's one of the flaws of the language. Be warned that using C++ for anything will most like slow down development, although it may result in a higher quality end product.
Quote:Doing the client in C++ would also hold the advantage of graphics libraries like SDL and portability. I'd prefer to use SDL over DirectX7. All later versions of DirectX get rid of the DirectDraw API and consolidate it into one big jumbly, hard to work with for 2d API that's also just plain slow compared to DirectDraw, but fact is DirectDraw is flawed in many ways and won't ever be getting better. Using SDL would probably fix all that.
That was kind of confusing. Just remember that if you use SDL, it will be slow. I don't know exactly what sort of graphics requirements you have, so it may be plenty fast enough, but SDL does a lot in software, so it will be much slower than DirectX Graphics would be, and probably slower than DirectDraw, as well.
Quote:But first I suppose need an interesting setting and a world, some concept art, a beefy design document, and a page with my work jumbled all across it to show people that I do have the know how.
Or is hoping that I can focus on the art side of things (which I frankly am better at) while other people tackle the client/server and me just doing utility programming on the side hoping for too much?
Maybe. I wouldn't count on being able to stay out of them completely. If you want good people to join, you will probably need to lay the framework for both yourself, so that you have a demo.
Writing something using C/C++ is not necessarily going to take longer. You just need to make sure the developer is experienced and good enough.
Quote:Original post by Shanira
Well I have personal objections to going for 3D:
- I want to make an MMORPG that captures that nostalgic look and feel of oldschool console RPGs. (although more advanced due to advancing technology probably) This is one of the major and foremost design principles, and I don't feel you can do that kinda thing in 3D. This is a target audience that has yet to be really catered to in MMORPGs, and I know for a fact that just about everyone I know in gamer circles would -definately- appreciate such a game.
- Artists are hard to find, 3D artists are harder to find, and talented volunteer 3D artists are as far as I know damn near impossible to find. Considering I excell at pixel art, and not 3D art, it makes sense to capitulize on the fact that I can do a lot of high quality art myself, as well as having other pixel artist contacts who I might ask to work with me later, when there's something to show to convince them to.
- I think 2D is more conducive to certain features I'm planning. Plus, I always did prefer the overview 2D in an MMORPG offers versus 3D. Not to mention that making 2D engines ARE as a rule easier to do than 3D engines.
So, really, unless a miracle happens and a few talented 3D artist volunteers and an engineer for a 3D engine fall into my lap, I doubt I'll be revising the 2D part of the game. ^^; There's just certain things about 2D that fail in 3D, and vice versa, and personally I favor the 2D approach. There's too much of a 3D craze without me contributing, IMHO.
Well, there are definite advantages to 3D over 2D, one being onscreen property. If everything is in 2D, then having 100 or more characters on screen at once may become rather crowded depending on how you handle this, not to mention lots of overlapping. This is still a problem in 3D, but just less an issue with the added dimension.
Trying to capture the nostalgia feel is great, so have you considered cel shading? It gives 3D art a 2D look. Or, if 3D artists are hard to find, there's no rule against a 3D environment and billboard characters based on sprites. That in itself may be interesting visually.
Quote:
That was kind of confusing. Just remember that if you use SDL, it will be slow. I don't know exactly what sort of graphics requirements you have, so it may be plenty fast enough, but SDL does a lot in software, so it will be much slower than DirectX Graphics would be, and probably slower than DirectDraw, as well.
Well, SDL may actually not be much slower considering that it gets hardware acceleration in the backend. So, by using SDL, you are indirectly using DirectX when on a windows platform. If you don't want to use DirectX, then you can always use OpenGL with SDL, which will almost definitely get you hardware acceleration.
The other advantage of SDL is that the networking functions are fairly nicely bundled and easy to use. I've written some simple server client software with it without knowing too much about network programming and they work fairly well.
I think you're doing the best and most critical thing you can do before you start any venture: Self assessment. But before you go further into the details of what it takes to build a MMO game, I'd like to ask you if you know why it is that you want to create this type of game, and what you want out of players and the entire effort as a result. Why is it important to have hundreds or thousands of players? Would 10 people playing together be able to have the same experiences? The reason I ask is because I wonder if you can distill the essence of what it is that you want to create-- which can take many forms, even as a card game-- and then figure out what the most essential form of that essence is. How much does it take to make the game work, IOW? If you kept cutting things back, when would it stop being your core idea?
From here, I think you'll be in a better position to consider time, talent and resource constraints. I think it will aid you in drilling down past the dreamy, feel-good ideas that are fanciful but not really critical to your project (so you get real focused about what it is you are trying to do).
Personally, I have mixed feelings about MMOs and MMORPGs. I've talked to several game business guys who say it's where the money is, but I also know that there's a glut of people who want to do the exact same thing. If you're more in it for the creative expression, not as a means to help sustain yourself, then you have more flexibility--but not much, as limitless horizons can be as destructive to your project as severe financial constraints.
Lose this concern. It won't serve you or your project. Whether it is a barrier or not needs to be approached with the same creativity that you'll approach technology and resource concerns-- IOW, if you can figure those out, you can figure this one out as well. If you have a more collaborative style in working with others, then you'll likely want to surround yourself with people who are more self-directed and team-oriented. You'll also need to surrender some authorial control over the ultimate shape of the project, as democratic processes tend to pull the vision toward something that's in harmony with everyone's goals.
FWIW, when I worked in the game industry I had, in two different companies, women as lead programmers and knew of dozens of women in technical and managerial roles in art, marketing and programming. One of the first attitudes I had to drop as a person of color was paranoia over whether or not I'd be accepted. The nice thing about geeks is that we tend to remember what it was like to not be accepted because of difference, and as a result tend to pitch a wide tent.
Your difference is an asset, never a liability, unless in your mind you sell it to yourself that way. Yes, there are most certainly obstacles--everyone has them, though not to the same degree nor in the same form. But your vision can only take shape to the degree to which you first have faith in your own strengths, then share those strengths with others.
From here, I think you'll be in a better position to consider time, talent and resource constraints. I think it will aid you in drilling down past the dreamy, feel-good ideas that are fanciful but not really critical to your project (so you get real focused about what it is you are trying to do).
Personally, I have mixed feelings about MMOs and MMORPGs. I've talked to several game business guys who say it's where the money is, but I also know that there's a glut of people who want to do the exact same thing. If you're more in it for the creative expression, not as a means to help sustain yourself, then you have more flexibility--but not much, as limitless horizons can be as destructive to your project as severe financial constraints.
Quote:Original post by Shanira
Will my self esteem get in the way if I have a team? Is a woman even the right person for the team? Because frankly, I don't have any of that hardassed attitude that this seems to demand, despite people telling me that I could probably be a good dev leader if I just structured things a little better. I like cooperation, not a strict rigid hierarchy where I tell people exactly how things are going to be, and how what is going to be. Brainstorming and input from other people is what I thrive on. Will people even "take orders" from a girl?
Lose this concern. It won't serve you or your project. Whether it is a barrier or not needs to be approached with the same creativity that you'll approach technology and resource concerns-- IOW, if you can figure those out, you can figure this one out as well. If you have a more collaborative style in working with others, then you'll likely want to surround yourself with people who are more self-directed and team-oriented. You'll also need to surrender some authorial control over the ultimate shape of the project, as democratic processes tend to pull the vision toward something that's in harmony with everyone's goals.
FWIW, when I worked in the game industry I had, in two different companies, women as lead programmers and knew of dozens of women in technical and managerial roles in art, marketing and programming. One of the first attitudes I had to drop as a person of color was paranoia over whether or not I'd be accepted. The nice thing about geeks is that we tend to remember what it was like to not be accepted because of difference, and as a result tend to pitch a wide tent.
Your difference is an asset, never a liability, unless in your mind you sell it to yourself that way. Yes, there are most certainly obstacles--everyone has them, though not to the same degree nor in the same form. But your vision can only take shape to the degree to which you first have faith in your own strengths, then share those strengths with others.
Impressive; very. If you are looking to start a team, or something, or have time to work on multiple projects I would be very, very interested in working with you to develope story and game ideas. If you would like to talk further I urge you to email me at peekafreakinboo@hotmail.com (this also doubles as my MSN, but I have IRC if that works better for you). I see you having very little problems if you pursue a future in game developement.
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement
