HP is about the most simple abstraction, so, its not strictly possible to remove it entirely, its too fundamental. Its like trying to remove the Circle.
As for improvements... It really depends on need. See, you take the PS2 game Front Mission 4, and you have 4 life bars, Body, Left Arm, Right Arm, and Legs. Technically, Body is all you need to eliminate to take out the enemy, but taking out Legs, for instance, will ruin his ability to dodge and restrict his movement range to 1 square per turn.
A list of 20 life bars is too extreme, but you can simplify it to a smaller set and have a good effect.
While on subject, I always thought Super Smash Brother's percentages were cool. No life bar, just a ranking of how much damage you've taken and it reflects the throw distance when you get smacked really hard.
No More Health: Combat Alternatives?
Quote:Original post by Inmate2993
HP is about the most simple abstraction, so, its not strictly possible to remove it entirely, its too fundamental. Its like trying to remove the Circle.
You're right. I guess this would be the engine with a car. I don't see much wrong with making it the whole body. But you could take it further and make it the heart and brain, or chest mid-section and head. So you could have two or more vital parts that need some HP to keep the character alive.
I wrote up an idea for a game a couple months back that had similar elements in the gameplay design to what you describe. It was a strategy/tactics game where all characters were customizable robots (along the lines of Front Mission.)
Every part--
Head, Chest, ShoulderL, ShoulderR, ArmL, ArmR, Legs, various parts in the head (controlling things such as the ability to see (accuracy, dodge), the ability to sense heat (accuracy, dodge: if you can't see, you can still sense them), sonar (similar to heat) and a processor (sort of like stamina meets agility and dexterity, it affects a wide array of things)), and a part in the chest called Life Disk (destroy this and mech=dead, Life Disks also determine your mech's class, it keeps a log of your mech with things such as battle xp and so forth, transferring this life disk to another body is possible, etc.)
--could be customized.
A head might be made up of 32 pieces of Arhym Metal for example, which has a heat rating of 6, a strength of 12 and a weight of 4 (all per unit.) Basically as far as I can remember, strength = Hit Points in this context. So a head of this type would have 32*12 HP.
So as I said, destroying the Life Disk is the key to killing a mech.. whenever you target and attack the Chest area there is a chance (based on how much HP the chest has remaining) to deal some damage to the life disk. The same happens with the parts in the head. Doing enough damage to any part will disable it.
Every part--
Head, Chest, ShoulderL, ShoulderR, ArmL, ArmR, Legs, various parts in the head (controlling things such as the ability to see (accuracy, dodge), the ability to sense heat (accuracy, dodge: if you can't see, you can still sense them), sonar (similar to heat) and a processor (sort of like stamina meets agility and dexterity, it affects a wide array of things)), and a part in the chest called Life Disk (destroy this and mech=dead, Life Disks also determine your mech's class, it keeps a log of your mech with things such as battle xp and so forth, transferring this life disk to another body is possible, etc.)
--could be customized.
A head might be made up of 32 pieces of Arhym Metal for example, which has a heat rating of 6, a strength of 12 and a weight of 4 (all per unit.) Basically as far as I can remember, strength = Hit Points in this context. So a head of this type would have 32*12 HP.
So as I said, destroying the Life Disk is the key to killing a mech.. whenever you target and attack the Chest area there is a chance (based on how much HP the chest has remaining) to deal some damage to the life disk. The same happens with the parts in the head. Doing enough damage to any part will disable it.
Well, no matter what you do to the HP system for the health system, the entire thing is still pretty much quantitative. So, there's always a value attached somewhere, like how badly your limbs are damaged, numerically out of 100 or something like that. So, what if we went the other extreme and went completely qualitative representations.
I know, somewhere in the back, there's still some numbers involved, but the players don't need to see for feel that. So, for example, like in Silent Hill 3, and other games in the series, I think, you only know how much you're hurt by how violently your controller vibrates or how much of a limp your character has. Something along that line.
So, say you had a fighting game that has no health meter or onscreen health display whatsoever. Then the only way you can tell how hurt your character is is by looking at his physical appearance, actions, and maybe responsiveness. I guess the really ties into the "limb-based" damage system.....
Oh well, just a thought I guess....seems I actualy went full circle and came up with minimal results...
I know, somewhere in the back, there's still some numbers involved, but the players don't need to see for feel that. So, for example, like in Silent Hill 3, and other games in the series, I think, you only know how much you're hurt by how violently your controller vibrates or how much of a limp your character has. Something along that line.
So, say you had a fighting game that has no health meter or onscreen health display whatsoever. Then the only way you can tell how hurt your character is is by looking at his physical appearance, actions, and maybe responsiveness. I guess the really ties into the "limb-based" damage system.....
Oh well, just a thought I guess....seems I actualy went full circle and came up with minimal results...
Deus Ex used a mechanism similar to this. Your character had health points for each major portion of his body: torso, left leg, right leg, left arm, right arm, and head. Smaller parts of your party were harder to hit, but had less hit points; larger parts were easier to hit but had more hit points. Reducing your torso or your head to zero hit points killed you; damaging your arms or legs decreased your accuracy and movement capabilities. I thought it was a nice balance between the two "HP == overall health" "every single cell of your body has hit points" abstraction extremes.
Your health was displayed as a superimposed image of the human body. The more damage you took, the more the color changed from green to yellow to orange to red, and finally to black. Completely disabling your legs reduced you to crawling at a very slow speed; disabling your arms made it impossible for you to wield a weapon.
Your health was displayed as a superimposed image of the human body. The more damage you took, the more the color changed from green to yellow to orange to red, and finally to black. Completely disabling your legs reduced you to crawling at a very slow speed; disabling your arms made it impossible for you to wield a weapon.
Quote:Original post by kSquared
Deus Ex used a mechanism similar to this.
Wow. I just realized that every point I've brought up was used in that game. Even the Destruction Derby type damage display and two vital parts. Well, I guess it didn't have bleeding :)
Haha, I still laugh when I think about what happens when your legs go. I can't count the number of times a bomb went off and I was hugging the floor as a result.
Quote:Original post by WeirdoFu
So, say you had a fighting game that has no health meter or onscreen health display whatsoever.
Operation Flashpoint did this. It was limb based and had most of the ideas we've just brought up. It also had no health display. The unfortunate thing is that it was nearly impossible to determine if you were badly injured or not, unless your arms or legs were hit. If you were shot in the chest, there was no visible clue other than a blood stain. IRL, you feel the pain of organs failing. Heh. It's difficult to represent pain with graphics.
Quote:Original post by kSquared
Deus Ex used a mechanism similar to this.
Did this make it into the sequel? Just curious, I never played the first, and can't get the 2nd to install. I'm wondering if it stood the test of redesign.
I can't comment on the second Deus Ex, but it worked great for the first. There were no numbers on the main display. Just a simple body shape with arms, legs, torso, and head. Healthy was transparent and damaged was red.
It's a really simple concept. I can't imagine any reason they would remove it.
It's a really simple concept. I can't imagine any reason they would remove it.
The player has a 60 second counter, every hit takes 15 seconds out of it and you are supposed to take 1 and a half minute per level ;)
Enemies have a time counter, from 5 seconds to 15 seconds. Hitting an enemy gives you the remaining seconds they have.
Hitting bosses take 15 seconds out of their counter, and they too have a 60 seconds counter.
Each enemy and/or boss have a weak spot. You have various different moves to aproach the enemy. You just have 1 attack, sucking energy, when you are next to the enemy, and you will attach to the part you of the enemy you are touching. Trying to suck energy from a non-weak spot takes 5 seconds out of your counter.
Only bosses may have close range attacks.
Enemies have a time counter, from 5 seconds to 15 seconds. Hitting an enemy gives you the remaining seconds they have.
Hitting bosses take 15 seconds out of their counter, and they too have a 60 seconds counter.
Each enemy and/or boss have a weak spot. You have various different moves to aproach the enemy. You just have 1 attack, sucking energy, when you are next to the enemy, and you will attach to the part you of the enemy you are touching. Trying to suck energy from a non-weak spot takes 5 seconds out of your counter.
Only bosses may have close range attacks.
Hi there, a quick point first, and then a sample solution.
Covering up the problem (changing health from quantative to qualative) isn't the solution, much like covering up a pile of dog poo with a pretty carpet isn't the solution to a similar problem. The problem is ... the system is crap. A baseline is created for damage increases and health increases, and you variate from that baseline to create varying techniques that do damage. The problem is all the damage goes to the same place.
Now to find a simple (sample?) solution to the problem. By just adding 1 bar of an alternative resource can greatly increase strategy.
The Setup: You have a health bar and a suit power bar. The percent of damage you don't take is equal to the percent of power left in your suit. 59% power left = 59% damage taken. Your suit regenerates power on it's own, when not being hit. There are various classes that can use different weapons and armor, and have different life totals.
The effect: Choosing weapons now has an additional tag (besides damage:accuracy:frequency) and that tag is (power-damage). Weapons can do ranges of damage to either, from 0 to X. You realize that you must do some damage to power, otherwise you won't be doing any damage at all, but you could hold that job off for a teammate. Suits can also come in varying strength of Capacity and regeneration rate. Armor could do better against shell or energy damage. Ammo prices, weapon prices, armor prices... they all have more meaning now. NPCs could say "People from Town X often use energy weapons" and you could alter your equipment to adjust for it.
The Conclusion: Even just one extra bar adds variety and strategy to every other option. It doesn't even have to be that special. A simple stamina bar, or fatigue bar, or anything else. The fun part comes in when you meet someone to fight, and realize that your combination doesn't do well against theirs, but you win anyhow or you realize your combination DOES do well against many people. You just can't have that level of customization with a single bar and any conception of balance.
Covering up the problem (changing health from quantative to qualative) isn't the solution, much like covering up a pile of dog poo with a pretty carpet isn't the solution to a similar problem. The problem is ... the system is crap. A baseline is created for damage increases and health increases, and you variate from that baseline to create varying techniques that do damage. The problem is all the damage goes to the same place.
Now to find a simple (sample?) solution to the problem. By just adding 1 bar of an alternative resource can greatly increase strategy.
The Setup: You have a health bar and a suit power bar. The percent of damage you don't take is equal to the percent of power left in your suit. 59% power left = 59% damage taken. Your suit regenerates power on it's own, when not being hit. There are various classes that can use different weapons and armor, and have different life totals.
The effect: Choosing weapons now has an additional tag (besides damage:accuracy:frequency) and that tag is (power-damage). Weapons can do ranges of damage to either, from 0 to X. You realize that you must do some damage to power, otherwise you won't be doing any damage at all, but you could hold that job off for a teammate. Suits can also come in varying strength of Capacity and regeneration rate. Armor could do better against shell or energy damage. Ammo prices, weapon prices, armor prices... they all have more meaning now. NPCs could say "People from Town X often use energy weapons" and you could alter your equipment to adjust for it.
The Conclusion: Even just one extra bar adds variety and strategy to every other option. It doesn't even have to be that special. A simple stamina bar, or fatigue bar, or anything else. The fun part comes in when you meet someone to fight, and realize that your combination doesn't do well against theirs, but you win anyhow or you realize your combination DOES do well against many people. You just can't have that level of customization with a single bar and any conception of balance.
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