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ebray99

OpenGL MS not supporting GL in longhorn?

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The problem is that the new UI of vista uses D3D for all the new fancy things they're doing. Thus if you have the new UI enabled, GL programs will have to have their calls converted to D3D, killing performance. However, if you disable the new UI and go back to the "old school" UI like what we use now, GL will run at full speed like it does now. The issue here is that your average Joe will want to use the new shiny UI (and will be enabled by default probably) which is a problem for GL. But vista is still a ways off so all of that still might be crap. Either way, I'm still using GL no matter what. :)



-SirKnight

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Yep, it is unfortunately true. But it's still a year for Windows Vista to go gold, so things can still change a lot. As I see it, there are two possible scenarios likely to happen now:

A) 3DLabs and NV put enough pressure on MS to give them the info needed to implement a fully featured driver.

B) This is the end of OpenGL.

Obviously, I hope for scenario A to happen, but from all the doomsday scenarios ever painted out, this one is by far the most serious one. MS wants to kill OGL once and for all, and (yet again) they're using their monopole position to achieve that. It's now entirely upon the hardware vendors to counter this attack.

Either way, our dev department has already started a cost rundown of porting our current OGL engine to D3D. Sad.

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tbh, even if you can turn it off this is enuff for me (and many others) not to upgrade from XP and in the end move off to Linux for good.

3DLabs think they can do it so that you can have the shiney desktop and OGL at full speed, I dare say NV and ATI think the same, heck its in their intrests todo so as if DX becomes the only 3D API used then MS will basically dictate how graphics hardware evolves, even more so than now...

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Didn't Bill Gates himself say they would always have support of OpenGL, if only to appease the scientific community?

But I have a better idea. Just ship your OGL game on a custom Linux bootdisk with a big driver cache, so it loads and plays not unlike a console game does. The added headroom should allow you a big quality/performance boost, so that people won't mind rebooting every time to play it. Although if you can't save to NTFS, saved games, caching, mods, etc could be a problem, but I'm sure there's a way around that. I think this is a damn good idea, and would give MS the kick to the nuts it sorely needs.

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Quote:
Original post by _the_phantom_
tbh, even if you can turn it off this is enuff for me (and many others) not to upgrade from XP and in the end move off to Linux for good.

Of course all professionals and gamers will turn the eye candy off. But Joe Average will not. And as a software manufacturer, you'll get questions such as "why does your competitors products work with the new GUI, yet yours don't ?". The net result will be everybody shifting over to D3D, if 3DLabs/NV/ATI won't (be able to) support OpenGL within the new GUI.

Linux will indirectly also suffer a big blow: the only reason current GPU manufacturers supply accelerated high quality Linux drivers is because they're essentially a by-product of their Windows driver core. You do the math.

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Well from the reply made by Barthol over at 3D Labs, it looks to be as if the Microsoft OpenGL implementation is only activated if the composited "Aeroglass" dekstop is turned on. I mean, yes, running an OpenGL ICD may disable the 'prettiness' and 'usefulness' factor of the composited desktop, but what does it matter if your applications run at full performance and capability?

But I personally don't like the way Windows is going with all of this Managed code anyways. *shrugs* But oh well. Things will sort themselves out. Microsoft realistically can't oust OpenGL without losing a lot of support from the hardware manufacturers, as well as those developers that prefer the OpenGL API.

Things will sort themselves out.

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DirectX 10 is the Fahrenheit team (if anybody remembers that team/codebase) and is DX merged with GL internal-engine wise (obviously I'm not talking about code here but architecture, etc). The object oriented constructs of DirectX with some of the great things of the GL engine such as state caching and batch/draws.

Unfortunately this situtation does look grim for GL on Windows. Foremost ATI does not want GL and is actually pushing for DX-only WinHEC as they are Microsoft's top partner in 3D graphics currently. The companies that are hurt the most are nVidia and Sony than all others.

The driver DDKs are completely different and you must follow specific guidelines and WinHEC and the MS 3D platform actually take care of most things that used to be driver level. OpenGL will be supported, but keep in mind that the drivers will not support extentions as that breaks the WinHEC model so the API will be stuck in 1.4.. which is what comparable to DX8.1? The user still must turn off some of the best features of the OS in order to run this old version of GL.

Quote:
Original post by Yann L
Of course all professionals and gamers will turn the eye candy off. But Joe Average will not.

Actually Yann I disagree with you a tiny bit. I totally agree that Joe Average will keep Areo running but I don't agree with professionals/gamers. I know many people in both categories and the majority actually love the eye candy. And this time there is even more reason, as the OS runs faster with the eye candy than without. Instead of saying the professionals/gamers I would say the 'tuners'.. the guys trying to squeak out an extra 1 point on 3D mark or the guy that loves turning off all the services to try and emulate DOS :)

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Quote:
Original post by Yann L
Linux will indirectly also suffer a big blow: the only reason current GPU manufacturers supply accelerated high quality Linux drivers is because they're essentially a by-product of their Windows driver core. You do the math.


Hmmm good point there... oh well, if this comes to pass and OGL really does die a death on windows and the linux support dries I think I'll be hanging up my gfx programming hat, I've nowt against D3D personally but I can not bring myself to use it if this is the way they kill OpenGL off, I'd rather jack it in and do other things with my time...

edit: I also feel sorry for those at NV, ATI and 3DLabs who work in their OGL department end up losing their jobs... I find ATI's position of not wanting OGL strange as well, considering how much their OGL team has been pushing the latest OGL stuff and the amount of work they do for the GDC presentation

edit 2: infact, scratch what I first said, if it does come to pass then I'll head into mobile developement instead [smile]

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Phantom, I'm not sure about 3D Labs, NV, etc but I can say for a fact that with ATI they now outsource a very large part of the driver development overseas currently. ATI has mostly purchased drivers and teams, from purchasing the first version of the drivers (which were written in C++ lol), to purchasing the next set and Marlboro team, to purchasing the FireGL drivers/team, etc.

ATI does have tons of driver developers, but I actually know a couple guys that got cut last year due to the huge outsource move. There used to be tons of development done here in Toronto but things are completely switching to outsource.

Also ATI is pushing GL for the now crowd, with DX9.L/10 only with Microsoft actually building the majority of the core driver they will be able to boost profits.

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