To what degree does copyright code apply?

1,356

September 02, 2005 07:00 AM

Quote:Original post by dmatter
2) NO. A class interface is simply a collection of names, in itself it is useless as it is not functional and therefore trivial - so cannot be copyrighted.

I disagree; a non-trivial interface can be copyrighted. The table of contents of a book is itself copyrighted, for instance, even though the table of contents is just a "trivial collection of names". Those names describe the framework for your ideas.

Like anything else trivial, however, a trivial class interface would not be copyrightable.

- k2"Choose a job you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life." — Confucius"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will get you everywhere." — Albert Einstein"Money is the most egalitarian force in society. It confers power on whoever holds it." — Roger Starr{General Programming Forum FAQ} | {Blog/Journal} | {[email=kkaitan at gmail dot com]e-mail me[/email]} | {excellent webhosting}

Anonymous

September 02, 2005 09:29 AM

Quote:Original post by kSquared
Quote:Original post by dmatter
2) NO. A class interface is simply a collection of names, in itself it is useless as it is not functional and therefore trivial - so cannot be copyrighted.

I disagree; a non-trivial interface can be copyrighted. The table of contents of a book is itself copyrighted, for instance, even though the table of contents is just a "trivial collection of names". Those names describe the framework for your ideas.

Like anything else trivial, however, a trivial class interface would not be copyrightable.

Is the table of contents copyrighted, or is it part of a copyrighted work, or is the question nonsense?

Timberl

106

September 02, 2005 09:54 AM

Quote:Original post by Jason2Jason
Quote:Original post by Fixxer
Also, you dont copyright code, you patent it.

Thats not true in places like Europe where you can't patent code. Patents from what I know usually involve a licence fee for using anything thats patented, and copyrighting just means you must have the authors permission to use it. (If they wish to charge they can, like engine licences).

That is completely untrue -- you absolutely *can* patent code in Europe. For something to be patented it needs to be new i.e. not in the public domain, have an inventive step, AND have a realistic commercial application.

you can't patent a mathematical formula, if thats what you're thinking of, but many scientists get around this by actually turning their formulae *into* programs so that they *can* be patented - so much for not being able to patent them in europe...

You can copyright anything that is your own work but it only prevents (or makes sue-able) copying, not someone else coming up with the same idea independent of your work and doing it (that's what a patent is for). Generally they can even copy the behaviour of your program if they want, as long as they haven't looked at your code to do it.

Trademarks are another issue - I imagine there would be issues if you released code under the namespace com.microsoft for example

also, American law is very similar to European law on the majority of things

Quote:
Im no expert but I'm pretty sure about that bit.

nor am I but at least I'm not guessing, and I doubt it

Timberl

106

September 02, 2005 10:01 AM

Another way to look at it is, you can copyright a program in the same way you could copyright a piece of written work. In fact by UK law, you automatically have copyright over a piece of work you produce, whether or not you declare it.

Also (c) or (C) has no meaning - it isn't equivalent to a c with a circle around it as far the law is concerned as lots of people seem to think

kSquared

1,356

September 02, 2005 11:55 AM

Quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
Quote:Original post by kSquared
Quote:Original post by dmatter
2) NO. A class interface is simply a collection of names, in itself it is useless as it is not functional and therefore trivial - so cannot be copyrighted.

I disagree; a non-trivial interface can be copyrighted. The table of contents of a book is itself copyrighted, for instance, even though the table of contents is just a "trivial collection of names". Those names describe the framework for your ideas.

Like anything else trivial, however, a trivial class interface would not be copyrightable.

Is the table of contents copyrighted, or is it part of a copyrighted work, or is the question nonsense?

A table of contents is part of a copyrighted work (the book), in the same way that a class interface is part of a copyrighted work (the class implementation). Taken on its own, it's much more questionable. You can't copyright the word "interface", or "interface IFoo", or "interface IFoo {", or ... you get the picture. The dividing line between when it's a stand-alone copyrighted work and when it's not is very blurry, however. The best guidance is that if it should be construed as an original work, then it's copyrighted.

- k2"Choose a job you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life." — Confucius"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will get you everywhere." — Albert Einstein"Money is the most egalitarian force in society. It confers power on whoever holds it." — Roger Starr{General Programming Forum FAQ} | {Blog/Journal} | {[email=kkaitan at gmail dot com]e-mail me[/email]} | {excellent webhosting}

Anonymous

September 02, 2005 12:08 PM

Quote:Original post by kSquared
Quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
Is the table of contents copyrighted, or is it part of a copyrighted work, or is the question nonsense?

A table of contents is part of a copyrighted work (the book), in the same way that a class interface is part of a copyrighted work (the class implementation). Taken on its own, it's much more questionable. You can't copyright the word "interface", or "interface IFoo", or "interface IFoo {", or ... you get the picture. The dividing line between when it's a stand-alone copyrighted work and when it's not is very blurry, however. The best guidance is that if it should be construed as an original work, then it's copyrighted.

I wasn't really talking about "the heap problem" (How many pieces of straw makes a heap?). Say I write a poem, I have a copyright to that poem. But now, let's say I write a novel where a character recites a poem. Now, my understanding of copyright law (I haven't actually studied it) is that anyone is free to copy a paragraph out of my novel so long as they cite it properly. To my mind, this would apply to the poem in the novel as well (they could copy it so long as they provided a citation). The poem is part of a copyrighted work and thus can be copied. However, if the poem were a stand alone work that I'd written, the poem itself would be the copyrighted work. Is this understanding correct?

Another question, how does copyright apply to all these sites posting song lyrics?

MaulingMonkey

1,729

September 02, 2005 03:38 PM

Quote:Original post by Timberl
Also (c) or (C) has no meaning - it isn't equivalent to a c with a circle around it as far the law is concerned as lots of people seem to think

<IANAL>Which is why if you use it you should also include the word copyright - e.g. "Copyright (C) 2005 Michael B. Edwin Rickert".

Copyright notice has not been required since 1989, but the explicit inclusion of this information can prevent others from arguing "Innocent infringement" (which occurs when the infringer did not realize that the work was protected).

The use of the word copyright I would think be sufficient evidence, and (C) 2005 would probably still hold some water, although would be arguable.

For best safety (by which I mean "ability to sue the pants off theives") the use of the copyright symbol (©) is of course preferable, but I would not go so far as to say (C) has no meaning.</IANAL>

kSquared

1,356

September 03, 2005 08:42 AM

Quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
I wasn't really talking about "the heap problem" (How many pieces of straw makes a heap?). Say I write a poem, I have a copyright to that poem.

Right.

Quote:But now, let's say I write a novel where a character recites a poem. Now, my understanding of copyright law (I haven't actually studied it) is that anyone is free to copy a paragraph out of my novel so long as they cite it properly.

That's right. Taking a paragraph or two as evidence or support for a different hypothesis in a different paper is a long-established principle of acceptable use for copyrighted work.

Quote:To my mind, this would apply to the poem in the novel as well (they could copy it so long as they provided a citation). The poem is part of a copyrighted work and thus can be copied.

You might be getting into hot water there. See below.

Quote:However, if the poem were a stand alone work that I'd written, the poem itself would be the copyrighted work. Is this understanding correct?

Sort of. In cases of distinct sub-works that are part of a larger work, each sub-work can be construed as a copyrighted work. For instance, the Encyclopedia Britannica is a very large document. If you printed the entire "C" volume -- a distinct sub-work -- without permission, you'd be violating copyright.

But if someone writes a book with lots of creative diagrams, and then you print one of those diagrams, you probably have a stronger case. An example of this is something like the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Would you get in trouble for printing Bilbo's "the Road Goes Ever On" poem? Possibly; it could be construed as a separate work, since poems can be distinct works themselves. But the copyright holder would have a tougher time than the Encyclopedia Britannica example.

Quote:Another question, how does copyright apply to all these sites posting song lyrics?

There hasn't been a court case yet, so the answer is "we don't know". Most sites justify it under the auspices of fair use. That is, someone looking up song lyrics is doing it because they want to know what the lyrics are, and not because they plan to make their own song as a derivative work.

- k2"Choose a job you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life." — Confucius"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will get you everywhere." — Albert Einstein"Money is the most egalitarian force in society. It confers power on whoever holds it." — Roger Starr{General Programming Forum FAQ} | {Blog/Journal} | {[email=kkaitan at gmail dot com]e-mail me[/email]} | {excellent webhosting}

To what degree does copyright code apply?

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To what degree does copyright code apply?

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