Quote:Original post by Wavinator
Who is your target audience? If it's hardcore number crunchers, then lots of permutations in weapon and defensive effects will probably be pleasing. But if its a wider audience, it's going to be pretty annoying to search through more than a few combinations.

I want to provide for the crunchers, but let others stream it through. Not quite sure how possible that is.

Quote:A player often simply wants to know what the bad guys are packing so that he can dress appropriately. If you create too many permutations, there's a strong chance that the amount of armor required (not to mention weapons to attack with) will balloon and that you'll need to segregate your enemies into less interesting packs (or risk the player constantly being unable to defend an irresistible attack).

The player will rarely be in situations where he needs to dress for the occasion. Armor is also adjusted into. Each unique entity levels up for the character who wears it. That means the less they change, the better.

There may be critical enemies in the game that are difficult to defeat with certain equipment. And of course there will be situations where a player might find armor that outclasses his own. But they won't be fighting sub machine guns in one corner and archers in another. The game will prepare them for such encounters if this occurs.

Quote:[evil] Don't take this personally, but in the name of all of humanity's unborn generations I beg of you to be more inventive than this!

Inventive? As far as I know, there are no settings that are similar to what I have planned. Games or movies. Perhaps The future part of The Time Machine is the same feel, though. I can name far more settings that take place in a futuristic future than I can a reverted medieval age future.

Quote:Please, whatever you do don't resort to the lazy a** "it's the future but really the past" creative bankruptcy that serves as the foundation for:

Sorry to disappoint you, but the setting is already firmly decided on. Although I don't follow your idea that this is a lazy setting. You think it's more work to create or design something that is purely futuristic? The amount of imagination and creative work can be the same. It sounds like you're just assuming too much.

Then you give me a list of seven games?? Wavinator, I can name 50 space games. Hell, almost every freak'n atari game ever created took place in space. StarWars and the like do not even come close to my design. It's difficult to comment on Final Fantasy. That's like saying my setting has been used by the Outer Limits show. So has every other setting.

Quote:Sci-fi RPGs are rare enough as they are. Putting automatic crossbows (and "lazer swords" too, presummably????) is like giving a starving man ripe, delicious looking apple made of wax. Biotech, nanotech and cybernetics offer acres of creative freedom. If you MUST go the route of "it's the future but the past" at least vary the shape of weapons (like the Klingon Ba'tleth) and give us nifty stuff like heat-seeking glaves or genetic signature swords (which would explain Excalibur, by the way).

Please focus your eyes on these words: Dark Age. Caves. Bands of barbarians. People hunting each other. Not castles. Not empires. Not cybernetic dogs. Futuristic equipment will serve as a sort of magic. Very rarely found, and very limited ammo or batteries.

Quote:(PS: I'm not anti-medieval so much as just tired of the lack of creativity)

Perhaps you could more accurately describe what creativity is lacking in my game's setting that is not lacking in your own?

Quote:Original post by Kest
Please focus your eyes on these words: Dark Age. Caves. Bands of barbarians. People hunting each other. Not castles. Not empires. Not cybernetic dogs. Futuristic equipment will serve as a sort of magic. Very rarely found, and very limited ammo or batteries.

So is it a bit like Fallout, but with futuristic weapons being even more scarce? That's okay then. I was a bit worried that the game world combat was one of the kinds that doesn't make sense (guns being weaker than swords, having magic for no particular reason etc.) which isn't what you seem to be wanting.

However, back to the topic, if the futuristic weapons are very rare, then I probably wouldn't worry about too much about including many different damage types for those weapons, since not many people will be using them.

Quote:Original post by Trapper Zoid
So is it a bit like Fallout, but with futuristic weapons being even more scarce?

Hmmm, something like that. Fallout focused on the guns, though.

Quote:However, back to the topic, if the futuristic weapons are very rare, then I probably wouldn't worry about too much about including many different damage types for those weapons, since not many people will be using them.

If I don't worry about it, it won't be included. If a gun can be used like a normal weapon, the game needs to deal with it in the same way, regardless of how rare it is. But that was my first issue. I want to avoid damage types that are specific to futuristic equipment. I want to make sure that other things can cause the same damage. A ninja fragment bomb, for example, might throw high velocity projectiles that have an effect just like bullets.

Quote:Original post by Kest
If I don't worry about it, it won't be included. If a gun can be used like a normal weapon, the game needs to deal with it in the same way, regardless of how rare it is. But that was my first issue. I want to avoid damage types that are specific to futuristic equipment. I want to make sure that other things can cause the same damage. A ninja fragment bomb, for example, might throw high velocity projectiles that have an effect just like bullets.

Well, "piercing damage" and "blunt damage" will account for lot of your weapon types, futuristic or old tech. However, looking through your list, there's a lot of stuff that I think would be future only (energy, plasma, explosive, cold, optics, hearing and respiratory). I'm not sure whether you'd need that many different types for rare weapons, so maybe you could scale them back to something a bit more managable.

Quote:Original post by Trapper Zoid
Well, "piercing damage" and "blunt damage" will account for lot of your weapon types, futuristic or old tech.

Those account for the damage type, but not how it penetrates or inflicts itself. Slicing across armor with a sword is entirely different than ramming it with a spear. The difference is just as extreme as a club smack versus an arrow. Chainmail doesn't protect nearly as well against stabbing as it does slicing. In fact, it might entirely deflect a weak slash. But a weak thrust would send someone to their knees. If I want to have purpose for the different armor types, I need variation.

Quote:However, looking through your list, there's a lot of stuff that I think would be future only (energy, plasma, explosive, cold, optics, hearing and respiratory).

Energy and plasma, perhaps. But the others will be included pretty often.

Explosives will be pretty common. Mostly for illusion or dismaying the enemy, but also for simply blowing people up. Most advanced bombs will require hefty intelligence attributes to operate, so they will be one item that has been left alone through the period. IE, there are still a lot of them around - unlike guns or grenades.

Cold is applied by weather. If your character is running around naked on a snow mountain, he will eventually get sick and get temporary negative attribute effects. If they do this often enough, their body-armor attribute versus cold will actually increase. Even with heavy clothing, some environments may require occasional fires to keep your party comfortable. Weather heat is generally more forgiven, but it does have small effects on performance. This means a character might fight much better with a certain armor type, even though it doesn't protect as well against general attacks. It will also be entirely plausible to weaken hordes of enemies in this way. For example, a certain enemy may be holed up in an underground bunker. That enemy may be more vulnerable to heat than most. And the bunker heating generator may still be operational. Sneak in, crank it up, take advantage of them.

Optics, hearing, and respiratory are very generic forms of attack. In fact, I would love to get all of my damage types to seem more at this level. An example would be a gas bomb (advanced or not) or any toxic environment. A gas mask, which does little but protect against respiratory attack, would entirely null the effect. Even a cloth mask would help a lot to keep toxins out. Simply wearing such a mask and carrying a weapon to inflict an area effect of that damage would be a pretty effective strategy.

Quote:Original post by Kest
Those account for the damage type, but not how it penetrates or inflicts itself. Slicing across armor with a sword is entirely different than ramming it with a spear. The difference is just as extreme as a club smack versus an arrow. Chainmail doesn't protect nearly as well against stabbing as it does slicing. In fact, it might entirely deflect a weak slash. But a weak thrust would send someone to their knees. If I want to have purpose for the different armor types, I need variation.

How about "piercing", "slashing" and "crushing" then? Isn't that what they use in D&D? I'm not sure if you can break down physical damage much more finely then that.

Quote:
Explosives will be pretty common. Mostly for illusion or dismaying the enemy, but also for simply blowing people up. Most advanced bombs will require hefty intelligence attributes to operate, so they will be one item that has been left alone through the period. IE, there are still a lot of them around - unlike guns or grenades.

Are there any types of armour that would good defense against explosions but not against physical types of damage, or fire?

Your description of how temperature works seems a little complex! Can you implement all this in a game, and still make it understandable to the player? But if you want to do all that, I think the thermal protection of all clothing will have to be included as a separate attribute.

As for optics, respiritory etc., most games tend to group these kinds of things by effect as well (stun, confusion, blindness etc.) But that won't really do for armour, so maybe just limit these things to the senses; protection for eyes, ears and breathing, as you've already done.

If you're worried about overloading the player with information, then just giving general descriptions like "Ear Muffs: Provides protection from sonic attacks" would be okay; you wouldn't need to go as far as "+25 protection". You could even just include this info. in a custom text box that you type out yourself for each item.

Quote:Original post by Trapper Zoid
How about "piercing", "slashing" and "crushing" then? Isn't that what they use in D&D? I'm not sure if you can break down physical damage much more finely then that.

I would love to do this. But how do I define armor that completely stops a relatively large arrow, but bullets or small fragments cruise on through it? Regardless of the velocity of the projectile, size also matters. Any other way that I try to imagine explaining to a player that their equipment behaves this way seems more complex than showing them two types of projectile values.

The same idea goes with stabbing versus piercing. Should I really imply that any armor that defends against arrows can stop a thrusted sword or spear just as well? If some hidden calculation makes the sword more effective than the arrow, wouldn't that be as bad as hiding it from the player? My only concern is to keep it friendly/tidy for the player. The inner working complexity of the attack versus defense system doesn't worry me much.

Don't give up just because I'm stubborn, though. Your suggestions are really helping me get a grip on the layout.

Quote:Are there any types of armour that would good defense against explosions but not against physical types of damage, or fire?

Great point! Explosions can be decently represented by an area effect of blunt force and heat. It's not exactly blunt, but tightly packed air thrusted into armor would be very similar to a blunt whack. So out with explosive.

Quote:Your description of how temperature works seems a little complex! Can you implement all this in a game, and still make it understandable to the player?

It's not really that complex. Look at temporary effect systems in simple RPGs, such as haste in Final Fantasy. Temperature will work the same way. An area effect that encapsulates the entire area or region will constantly apply very small changes to the status it adds to characters. Armor or clothing will filter some of the changes as well as sometimes modify the temporary effect itself. For example, warm clothing will continuously remove cold status effects.

The character's body parts are actually armor items in my game. They are the exact same system, just hidden from inventory view. This means different characters or races can have natural defenses or abilities, using the same systems as normal armor. It also means a whack job doctor can cut off your damaged forearm limbs and add robotic replacements. Or at least that would be possible with the engine ;)

Quote:But if you want to do all that, I think the thermal protection of all clothing will have to be included as a separate attribute.

I believe I'm going to completely remove cold as an attack type, change heat to simply fire, then add temperature heat and temperature cold. But these two can be displayed in a different area. So that's minus one more.

Quote:If you're worried about overloading the player with information, then just giving general descriptions like "Ear Muffs: Provides protection from sonic attacks" would be okay; you wouldn't need to go as far as "+25 protection". You could even just include this info. in a custom text box that you type out yourself for each item.

That gives me a great idea. What if the player cannot even determine the exact effects of the items? The general description could be listed, with obvious stuff, but not the numbers. What if the player could take items to special NPCs and receive huge mega detailed statistics for them? This would give players a pretty inventory screen, while giving hardcore munchkins all the details they can handle. If they wanted to figure it out without traveling to an NPC, they could always wear the thing and see what happens. Not knowing exactly how something works may just add to the depth. Items will rarely be actually purchased - most will be found while treasure hunting or pulled from dead villains. So this could add a lot of experimentation.

Thanks for the suggestions :)

Quote:Original post by Kest
I would love to do this. But how do I define armor that completely stops a relatively large arrow, but bullets or small fragments cruise on through it? Regardless of the velocity of the projectile, size also matters. Any other way that I try to imagine explaining to a player that their equipment behaves this way seems more complex than showing them two types of projectile values.

Does armour work that way? I haven't looked into it in great detail. I thought that an arrow and a spear would be deflected by the same sorts of materials, but I haven't done any extensive tests to find out [smile].

I can see how a bullet might be treated differently, as the velocity is higher. I suppose you could go into fine detail about how an armour type would dissapate momentum or deal with high impact forces, but that seems a little bit much for a single stat. If you wanted to deal with bullets separately you could have a "high velocity projectile" property for bullets, shrapnel and things like that. Arrows might be somewhere inbetween bullets and daggers, so you could put them in either category, or a little bit of both.

Quote:
It's not really that complex. Look at temporary effect systems in simple RPGs, such as haste in Final Fantasy. Temperature will work the same way. An area effect that encapsulates the entire area or region will constantly apply very small changes to the status it adds to characters. Armor or clothing will filter some of the changes as well as sometimes modify the temporary effect itself. For example, warm clothing will continuously remove cold status effects.

It's not that temperature is complex in and of itself, it's just if you have too many of these considerations then there will be too many variables for you to manage in your game, and too much info. for the player to wrap their head around.

Quote:
That gives me a great idea. What if the player cannot even determine the exact effects of the items? The general description could be listed, with obvious stuff, but not the numbers. What if the player could take items to special NPCs and receive huge mega detailed statistics for them? This would give players a pretty inventory screen, while giving hardcore munchkins all the details they can handle. If they wanted to figure it out without traveling to an NPC, they could always wear the thing and see what happens. Not knowing exactly how something works may just add to the depth. Items will rarely be actually purchased - most will be found while treasure hunting or pulled from dead villains. So this could add a lot of experimentation.

While I have no problem with stat. hiding behind fuzzy descriptors, the problem is that a lot of RPG players (particuarly the hardcore) love that kind of stuff, and having to track down a special NPC will annoy them a lot. And it seems that your type of RPG design, with heaps of different types of weapons and having to deal with many different types of damage, would appeal mainly to the hardcore. I'd think they'll get annoyed at not knowing exactly that the gloves that they've just looted off their enemy is the Pink Fluffy Mittens of Thermal Protection +7 and Pick-pocketing +13. It's a bit sad, but that's what the term "RPG" has come to mean these days.

Quote:
Thanks for the suggestions :)

No problem! [smile]

Quote:Original post by Trapper Zoid
Does armour work that way? I haven't looked into it in great detail. I thought that an arrow and a spear would be deflected by the same sorts of materials, but I haven't done any extensive tests to find out [smile].

Well, like I was saying before, I would like to make each type of damage specific. It would allow me to keep the damage / defense system very simple, while still providing specific defenses for each type of attack.

Chainmail versus bullets is a really great example. Chainmail is a very unique type of armor, having holes in it. Bullets are small enough to pass through some chainmail. So in effect, I can provide random deflection to a point where bullets are sometimes not absorbed by the chainmail at all, and other times completely deflected.

So certain chainmail start-up scripts can add a flag to it's defense[bullets] properties to impliment random deflection (this flag being allowed for any defense). If my 'projectiles' damage type included both arrows and bullets, I would have to add very complex routines to define exactly how the random deflection works - mainly based on the size of the object in this case. This is just an example, though. There are many situations where having exact control is a really great thing. The down side is that all weapon types must find a way to be defined by the limited specific types. Fortunately, I think I have all I'll need.

Quote:It's not that temperature is complex in and of itself, it's just if you have too many of these considerations then there will be too many variables for you to manage in your game, and too much info. for the player to wrap their head around.

I passed up 'too many' variables a long time ago :)
Being serious, that's why I included temperature as a damage type - to make it use the same system as everything else. That means everything it needs to function will already exist.

My characters have comfort levels. There will be no display bar for warmth or cold, just one comfort. Being really hot or really cold will diminish the comfort level. Comfort levels define how fast characters heal, how fast technique points regenerate, stamina, etc. Really low comfort levels can eventually make the character get sick. But it's effected by many things, and is actually easy to manipulate. You can remove negative effects of anything by adding positive effects of anything else. For example, if you get hot or cold enough to start losing comfort, you can increase that lost comfort by eating or sleeping. Before anyone adds that my game sounds more like a simulation than an RPG, I'll go ahead and make that point for you. I won't have much of the killing hundreds of giant spiders type experience. The game will focus heavily on surviving on your own in such a terrible world.

Quote:While I have no problem with stat. hiding behind fuzzy descriptors, the problem is that a lot of RPG players (particuarly the hardcore) love that kind of stuff, and having to track down a special NPC will annoy them a lot. And it seems that your type of RPG design, with heaps of different types of weapons and having to deal with many different types of damage, would appeal mainly to the hardcore. I'd think they'll get annoyed at not knowing exactly that the gloves that they've just looted off their enemy is the Pink Fluffy Mittens of Thermal Protection +7 and Pick-pocketing +13. It's a bit sad, but that's what the term "RPG" has come to mean these days.

I have to agree. I'm one of them. But I also enjoy figuring things out on my own. I don't like the systems where you simply look to see how much your stats are effected before equipping something. I don't like the "Equip Best" buttons. It takes a lot of the fun out of it. Maybe I'll just not have the NPCs at all. Maybe I'll try to come up with interesting gameplay methods that the player can use to discover the abilities of items on their own. Mannequins? Identify skill (which takes you to a seperate screen)? Something.

Has anyone actually played a game that used complex inner-working attack/defense systems without displaying the details to the player? I have yet to see such a thing.