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robert4818

More MMO, Less RPG

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I've noticed this alot. Everyone and their mom keeps trying to come out with the next big MMORPG. The problem is that that area is over-saturated right now. Granted it IS the easiest of the MMO types to create, but the reality is that there are many other genre's out there that could benefit from the MMO styel of play. Racing, (Instanced zoned races, open races, tracks, street, pick up, individualized cars etc.) Space/Air dogfight (perhaps not to the point of persistant worlds...but still) FPS (Beyond Planetside, this could benifit most from going down the classic MMO style think MMO DOOM :) ) Sports (Each person gets control of a player, they form teams....compete in seasons/ladder tournaments) RTS (HUGE map about 100-500 players per map, try to conqure the world!) Action/Adventure (Think Zelda: TOOT styel MMO, or perhaps Double Dragon, Battle Toads etc) Poke'mon (Yes I know the game is over hyped but the general idea lends itself PERFECTLY to an MMO style setting...in fact the game/tv show basically describes the MMO style) GTA style MMO. The point is that there are alot more options out in the world than JUST another MMORPG. Granted other ones can have more of a headache technical/bandwidth wise, but still. When it does come to MMO's lets get a little more original than Fantasy...there are alot more genre's out there to play in. Gothic, SCI-FI, Horror, Wild West, Mytholigical, Pre-historic, Cyberpunk, Steam Punk, Hell there's more in just fantasy than what we see, get away from the classic "Tolkienesque" style of high fantasy. ORIGINALITY PEOPLE

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Racing - Motor City Online flopped.

Space/Air dogfight - Plausible, I suppose. What would be persistant though?

FPS - Same as above.

Sports - Takes way too much coordination. No one wants to play a linebacker, everyone wants to be the quarterback or receiver. A big fantasy league is possible, but you can find some free webbrowser game for that.

RTS - A huge map with 100 - 500 players per map? What happens when you log out? You can't win a game of that size in one sitting and any AI is going to play like ass and get you killed. He who sleeps less wins.

Action/Adventure - Really what's the difference? Levels and attributes replaced by rarer items?

Pokemon - Definitely the best.

GTA MMO - Just an MMORPG in an urban environment.

As for your genres:
Gothic: What's the difference between gothic and fantasy but a darker environment?
SCI-FI: EVE Online, Anarchy Online
Horror: The hell would you do? Run away from monsters persistantly?
Wild West: Being made.
Mythological: Difference between fantasy is...?
Prehistoric: This one could be fun.
Cyberpunk: Neocron.
Steampunk: An MMO in the Thief universe? That would be pretty cool.

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Quote:
Original post by robert4818
[...]FPS (Beyond Planetside, this could benifit most from going down the classic MMO style think MMO DOOM :) )[...]
I can see it now: "OOooohh! I just owned his face! OH! WAIT! MAYBE! Nope I lagged =-( WAIT! Nope, I defeinitely lagged *switches to chaingun and holds down fire* YEA! GOT ONE!"
At least, that's about how planetside went when I played it.

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I agree a creature fighting game with a MMO style would be sweet... But you gonna have to make something that breaks out from the idea of Pokemon or Monster Rancher its gonna have to be something unique beside being MMO... I say get some designers on it though cuz I would sure like to play that... Also avoid the childish sence of pokemon... Maybe when I got my MMO engine done Ill see if I can put my own twist on this... But I got a game already set up for the first use of that engine so... it probly be 5 years...

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Read the genre part after I posted that last one... I have a sequal to the game im working on now planned... And it would probly fall into the "Prehistoric" genre but it wont be like dinosaurs but yet the creatures you were fighting in the one rpg you will actually be one of those creatures...

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The point is just to mention that there are other things out there.

I don't have the answers, nor do I have the means. The point is that there is more out there than just what we see right now.

Yes I realize that SOME games have already been made in other genre's I didn't say they were not made. But the truth is that there needs to be alot more work put into originality.

So Sci-Fi has been done a couple of times. Sci-Fi and Fantasy are inter-twined, and there have been a large variety of stories written about them. But the worlds created by game developers tend to fall flat compared to the possibilites.

There can be alot more work put into games that are coming out to be truly original. But people are afraid to really step out of the bounds of comfort.

As for how a space/air Dog Fight game could be done check out my post Here:
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=316883

The difference between Gothic and Fantasy...Well the darker environment is one. But Gothic can also span various ages...Vampire the Masqeruede is Modern...

The difference between Fantasy and Mythological is more style than gameplay. But hey style is one of those things that doesn't get alot of touch some times.

The difference between MMORPG and an MMO ACTION/ADVENTURE is the difference between Final Fantasy and Zelda. One relies on Character Skills, the other relies on the Players Skills.




AND NEOCRON JUST SUCKED!

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Quote:
Original post by GroZZleR
Space/Air dogfight - Plausible, I suppose. What would be persistant though?


EVE-Online. Everyone shares the same universe - no sharding or anything, and the playerbase is constantly breaking records for the most amount of people online at once.

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In addition to what the other's have mentioned:

MMORTS: Mankind, starport, alliegance to a degree.

Space Dogfight: alliegance to a degree, starport to a degree.

Air dogfight: There's actually a bunch of small ones here.

pokemon: ala MTG online? it's pretty similar only with avatars and... fluff.



And let's not forget the MMO puzzle, and MMO mafia, and....

bleh.


Speaking of orginality, why's everything these days have to be massively full of cheaters, bots, powergamers, and griefers? I know I could really go for a good Simply Singleplayer Offline RPG right now.

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Quote:
Original post by GroZZleR
Racing - Motor City Online flopped.

Good point. Most racing games today allow you to play online and maintain network leaderboards (especially sweet on Xbox Live); a predominantly-online, persistent world doesn't add much to the formula except subscription fees. it might work on Xbox Live, since annual access is a flat fee for all games.

Quote:
Sports - Takes way too much coordination. No one wants to play a linebacker, everyone wants to be the quarterback or receiver. A big fantasy league is possible, but you can find some free webbrowser game for that.

Ultimate Baseball Online

I think the idea has potential; it just has to be intelligently pursued. Some games (basketball, hockey - except for goalie) lend themselves better than others (football, soccer, tennis) because everyone plays, but then you have the problem of what to do with substitutes (who wants to pay to play benchwarmer?) and how to handle things like injury and spectatorship. Then again, you start out most MMORPGs as a fairly insignificant character...

Quote:
Space/Air dogfight - Plausible, I suppose. What would be persistant though?

FPS - Same as above.

RTS - A huge map with 100 - 500 players per map? What happens when you log out? You can't win a game of that size in one sitting and any AI is going to play like ass and get you killed. He who sleeps less wins.

I reordered these elements because the logical thing to do, at least initially, is to layer an MMORPG on top of an MMOFPS and MMOFlightSim. There will always be a greater need for (and higher supply of) pilots, grunts and footsoldiers than of RTSes, especially if the story gives a plausible reason for making advancement challenging. Let me flesh it out with an example.

The MMOFPS is designed as a promotion-based tactical squad shooter, where you start out under the command of another player (who may be a bot, but we never reveal this to the players if we can help it). Depending on your record, you get increasingly delegated command responsibilities and then take control of your own 4-person fireteam. Then you command a couple of fireteams. Then a whole company. Now, if you want, you can enter "officer training" and switch to the RTS or just continue racking up godlike stats as a shooter and tactical leader. Actual characters may be disposable, which breaks the "persistence" rule of MMOs, but who really cares?

The MMOFlightSim is designed as an advancement and promotions-based aerial war simulator. After obtaining your wings, you're sent out first on recon missions, then on escort and protect missions - or, if there's a sudden need for pilots, you're sent right into the thick of things to die for your country. [smile] Eventually you rack up enough kills and hours to get put in command of a squadron of fighters, after which the next step is "officer training" - or choosing to remain a flyboy, married to the sky.

The MMORTS is a wargame, where each player starts out in officer training. You don't have to go through either the FPS or Flight Sim or any other modules added on to get into officer training; it's simply a "recruitment" or "stat advance" method to open players of those games to another view on the game they've been playing all along.

During officer training a branch of service is selected and the successful graduate (training is basically a How To Play sequence, so everyone graduates successfully after a short while) is then assigned to an assistant command position with some company. By having a chain of command in place and including a promotion system on which other, higher-ranking players get to vote, you not only have military challenge by social networking and so forth. Certain parts of the promotions process should probably be automated (such as recommending a soldier for promotion based on performance) so as to limit the amount of tampering possible, but in such a way as to cooperate with players (such as requiring a set number of human players to support a promotion recommendation for it to come before a panel for review).

The supply chain or Military-Industrial Complex is part abstracted such that soldiers are never required to mine for resources (unless the game is set on an alien planet or something and that's part of the fundamental premise). Instead, depending on economic factors, unit performance and the overall dictums of the Department of Defense/War Office due to the perceived requirements of the war, resources are allocated and reallocated by strategic players at different levels - giving tactical/action players further down additional incentive to be productive.

I'm sure you can flesh this design out a whole lot better than I can.

Quote:
Pokemon - Definitely the best.

Actually, on this I disagree. Pokémon is just like racing in this regard: the ability to play competitively online and maintain a rankings leaderboard seems to be all that's necessary. I can't quite wrap my head around what would persist in this game - unless you're talking about basing the MMO on the cartoons/films/novelizations (I assume there are novelizations, given the franchising wonder Pokémon is).

Finally, I think genre is completely orthogonal to the structural requirements of an MMO. Take the military MMO RTS/FPS/Flight Sim hybrid I described above: it could be set in the Wild West (with no Flight Sim component, but a much expanded infantry as well as the considerations of the emerging railroad system), either of the World Wars, a sci-fi future on a distant planet involving "strange, unfamiliar races," an alternate steampunk reality, a fantasy realm...

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While my network programming skills are extemely primitive, I think the limiting factor in MMO game design is dealing with lag. Since you've got to verify everything with zillions of players on your big server, the game can't really rely on instantaneous response and update times for all players in the game world. This rules out any game that relies on twitch reflexes, so all action games are out.

So this leaves game designs where either lag doesn't matter so much, or a simple A.I. layer can deal with lag issues. RPGs are well suited to this, as they don't need to have to deal with commands as soon as they are issued, and can have low level scripting A.I. to deal with lag issues. However I think RTS games could work as well, as long as they weren't too twitch-happy. Anything with a turn based system (even if the turns have a very short time limit) would also work.

And I also agree that the Pokemon francise is screaming out to be made MMO. While I don't play MMO games (due to a crappy internet connect, lack of time, lack of interest, and a general disregard to play games where I have to deal with the unwashed masses of socially beligerent adolescent gamers out there), if there was a MMO Pokemon game with updated A.I and strategy (something like the T.V. show, where the moves can be used creatively with the environment, and the pokemon have individual personalities which depend on the care of the trainer and influence their fighting style), then I would be extremely tempted to join up.

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