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Brainstorming: what do you like about RPGs?

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I'm designing a game that can be best described as a strategy management game (like SimCity, RollerCoaster Tycoon etc.) set in a fantasy RPG environment. Since I'd like my game to appeal to the widest possible audience, I'd like the game to appeal to both RPG and strategy management fans. Therefore I'd like to make the RPG mechanics to be as simple as possible while still capturing the elements that endear the genre to fans. So since I know many of you are RPG fans as well as designers, I was wanting to brainstorm the aspects of game design in RPGs that you enjoy (and think many other people enjoy as well) that would not alienate other players who are not hardcore. Since my design is in its early stages I'm looking for a general brainstorm of ideas. I don't mind if you list absolutely any aspects at all that you think are great; little things like the feasibility to implement them I'll deal with later [smile]. So, what is it about RPGs that you enjoy?
Here's a summary of what ideas I've got from you so far: Reactive Storytelling/World to Player Actions (5 counts) Character Development/Growth (4 counts) Custom Character Creation (4 counts) Customisable Equipment/Diversity of Items/Crafting (4 counts) Character Interaction (3 counts) Quality Story (3 counts) Deep/Interesting/Strategic Combat System (3 counts) Interesting mini-game activities (hunting, gardening etc.) (2 counts) Quality World Design (2 counts) Real-time Interactive Combat (1 count) Player Freedom to Follow Storyline (1 count) Friendly to Exploration (1 count) Non-cliche Storyworld (1 count)
A more detailed list of individual responses. Telastyn: Character Development: creating characters and watching them grow (as well as town development) (most people like) Crafting ]XWampireX: Deep and compelling story, that is reactive to player choices Character interaction and growth Interactive combat (real time, twitch based) Good world layout Wavinator: Freedom to choose whether or not to explore the story Geography or levels that accomodate and reward exploration Combat system (if included) that has multiple dependencies and vulnerabilities (especially status effects) World history, characters, races not derived straight from Tolkein Customisation/improvement of equipment (but not at expense of stores) Non-combat activities/minigames (such as hunting, flirting, arena combat) World that reacts to where I've been and what I've been doing Optional Combat Gardening Character Customisation Shopping Anonymous Poster 1: Character growth (both levels and personality) Different abilities/spells/weapons with different strategic uses Customising (in general) Kest: Evolution of characters and story Fournicolas: Interacting with other people (PCs and NPCs) and making actions and decisions Story (that is compelling and well paced) Believable world design sunandshadow: Quality World Character Interaction Reactive Storytelling/World Interesting mini-game activities Interesting combat Quality Story Omegavolt: Custom Character Creation Lots of Items Interactive Environments Strategic Battles Anonymous Poster 2: Crafting Systems (a la Legend of Mana) [Edited by - Trapper Zoid on September 9, 2005 2:57:55 AM]

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I am afraid that management simulation and RolePlaying game are two OPPOSING genres.

In the former, you are bound to the "omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God" position, in which you preside over the destiny of the world below, whereas in the latter, you are expecting to live out the fantasies of an individual, with extraordinary capabilities, but nonetheless FEARING most of the ennemies. You are alsso expecting to fulfil quests, given to you by people fearing the wilderness or contact with other NPC people even more.

In fact, attempting to put both genres in only ONE game looks suspiciously dangerous.

Unless you intend to make of your playing character the ruler of a small country, or part of a country, and have him manage the resources, in order to skip some adventuring. The adventuring could be made in orde to help momentarily the management, by gathering resources very fast?

Let me explain.

As the Lord-Mayor and Protector of Dumblepulgeese, small village on the North shore of that white and foamy river, you may have to manage things in order to make your village grow. You may want to advise population to grow more crops, learn new trades, import some things, initiate trade, whatever. But when comes the time where the commercial routes are regularly raided by the same band of Orcs, you leave your office, grab your sword, and go back to skull-bashing. Plus once you've got your gold and stuff back, you still can redistribute it to your village, and help the growth.

A plague of rats? Will you raise the taxes to hire a ratcatcher, or will you go out and try to kill them all?

A pack of wolves killing the lambs from your people? Will you make them build wals or will you go a-hunting?

The people from your village are beginning to be sick and tired of Friday Night Cabbage-Eater Contest? Will you send a demand for a group of musicians to come, or will you go and drag them there? If they wanted to come, but weren't able, due to danger, would you go and rid them of the danger, accompanying them, or would you hire a party of your villagers to help them come?



As you see, RPG is a genre of first-person adventure, or at worse, third-person view of first-person adventures. YOU are having fun killing things, getting a better equipment and better stats... whereas management simulation is a genre in which equipment only matters when you're talking about roads and mills... Plus I can't imagine a QUEST in SimCity...

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If there was one special character in the game that the player can control from an RTS perspective, and can only dish out orders to others through that character, instead of doing it all from the 'God' position, I'd think that could work.

So you tell your man-on-the-ground to get a barracks built, he goes off and rounds up the people to make it happen, and basically project manages the whole thing.

If he should get killed, you have 2 options:

1) Be able to select another person to take over this role. However they'd have a lower leadership level because of lack of experience.

2) Game Over.

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Fournicolas your explaination sounds to me as though it could actually be alot of fun if done correctly and plus it'll be different to alot of the stuff currently out there.

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Well, mainly, the idea comes from Might&Magic 7, where your first task is to win a contest and inherit a castle somewhere. When you get to the castle, it is infested with goblins, and in ruins. And then, you find yourself in the middle of a war of influence between two major countries to win your county and castle. You have to undertake a grand quest to favor one of two countries, or, if you are clever and quick, win the right to be a separate country. I think that, if it had included a more active Mayor role, with taxes levies, some more politics, and public welfare, it would have made me thrill.

Plus, if you could do it so that the time spent in First-person Role-playing was real-time, whereas the time spent as Lord-Mayor was going faster, so that you don't have to wait for a whole year before seeing the crops come out of ground, it would probably be a lot more fun. And while you are out adventuring, the time still runs for the people in your hometown, and life goes on...

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I think it'd work fine.

4X games, tactics games, populous style games, even sim city games already done [like stronghold] work well with Fantasy.

Anyways, I like character development. Both in creating characters and watching them grow. That character growth would go along well with the town/castle growth that I love with SC/RCT style games.

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A game like that wouldn't really be called an RPG, since RPG in the first place implies Role Playing Game, a game with a grand story where you play a role (Mostly to defeat a grand villain), what you want is sim city type of game, so it's a simulation game, I just don't know how a simulation game work with an RPG other than perhaps like sims, perhaps? Not a good idea, well, you could try warcraft 3 which is kinda a Real Time Strategy with RPG elements, but it won't really be sim city like, perhaps you gave the wrong examples? I don't see how a sim city like game could be done in an RPG manner since sim city = create cities, populate them and destroy whatever you want, well... Play a god. So you could say it's semi "RPG" like.

I don't know, can you give me some better picture on what you really want to create?

What makes a good RPG is a deep and compelling story where you could follow, but of course, you have a choice and depending on choice you should get different results, this is where the "Role Playing" comes into as well.

As far as gameplay goes, RPGs don't always have to have leveling up (And I don't really see a way to implement it in a Sim City like game...). Try to make a game where you can actually see your "God" in the game and he can tell people to do things, build houses for "him" and worship him and stuff, you could get respect ratio, so if people enjoy how you lead them, they would respect you more, and be able to build better buildings and do better things overall...

I don't really know, just food for thought, it would be hard to implement an RPG system into a Simulation game, but go for it, sounds like it could be something nice if done well!

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To me, the best elements of an RPG are:


  • Freedom to choose whether or not to explore the story
  • Geography or levels that accomodate and reward exploration
  • A combat system (if there is combat) that has multiple dependencies and vulnerabilities, especially in the form of non-combat status effects
  • World history and characters/races that aren't ripped straight from Tolkein (for the love of variety, not another #*#@ dark elf...give me stagecoach robbing dragoncats with wips and halberds or something!)
  • Customization / improvement of equipment (such as with slots or by imbuing it with magic), but not so much that stores are worthless
  • Repeatable non-combat activities (often considered minigames) such as hunting, or charming the ladies or arena combat (why we don't see tournaments and games more often I just don't understand)
  • Hardest part: A world that reacts to where I've been and what I've been doing


I think for mass appeal you can never go wrong with optional combat, gardening, character customization and shopping.

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Quote:
Original post by Wavinator
To me, the best elements of an RPG are:


  • Freedom to choose whether or not to explore the story
  • Geography or levels that accomodate and reward exploration
  • A combat system (if there is combat) that has multiple dependencies and vulnerabilities, especially in the form of non-combat status effects
  • World history and characters/races that aren't ripped straight from Tolkein (for the love of variety, not another #*#@ dark elf...give me stagecoach robbing dragoncats with wips and halberds or something!)
  • Customization / improvement of equipment (such as with slots or by imbuing it with magic), but not so much that stores are worthless
  • Repeatable non-combat activities (often considered minigames) such as hunting, or charming the ladies or arena combat (why we don't see tournaments and games more often I just don't understand)
  • Hardest part: A world that reacts to where I've been and what I've been doing


I think for mass appeal you can never go wrong with optional combat, gardening, character customization and shopping.


I agree, but the question remains... How could someone create a Simulation game with RPG elements? :)

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*cough*

Quote:
Original post by spacemonkeystudios
If there was one special character in the game that the player can control from an RTS perspective, and can only dish out orders to others through that character, instead of doing it all from the 'God' position, I'd think that could work.

So you tell your man-on-the-ground to get a barracks built, he goes off and rounds up the people to make it happen, and basically project manages the whole thing.

If he should get killed, you have 2 options:

1) Be able to select another person to take over this role. However they'd have a lower leadership level because of lack of experience.

2) Game Over.


Simulation/RTS game, with an RPG twist, hopefully...

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*I didnt read everypost so sorry if this is a repeat*

Fournicolas I'd like to point out that while they are opposing genres, Harvest Moon is a shining example of it working out just fine. The mangament aspects are done just right, and there's plenty of role playing to be done (getting married, making friends, meeting orders, etc.)

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Whoops, I guess I was a little too vague in my starting post. I didn't particularly want to steer the brainstorming session off in any direction by putting too many details about what I want, but I guess it won't hurt to clarify the game a little more.

You can think of the game as SimVillage, where you look after your own fantasy RPG style village from a gods-eye view; the player is not in direct control over any character. At the moment I am thinking about setting the world in a console RPG-esque environment, as I think a lot of players will be familiar with that and so will enjoy the game more. Actually, I'm willing to debate that last point, as I'm also considering a more generic fantasy world, or something set in a more European fairy tale environment, or using Germanic or Nordic mythology, or anything else that someone might suggest that would appeal to more people. But let's stick to RPG worlds for now, as that's what this thread is about [smile].

What I'm looking for here is a brainstorming about RPG elements that people like, similar to what Wavinator has written. I know I can't implement everything that makes an RPG, but I'm using a fantasy RPG setting, not building an RPG. But for this brainstorming I'll like to consider everything, so I can get a good feel of what is liked.

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Quote:
Original post by XVampireX
I agree, but the question remains... How could someone create a Simulation game with RPG elements? :)


Well, this is TZ's thread and I think he wanted us to focus on RPG elements we enjoy, so we shouldn't derail it.

But consider this: To blend genres, the tasks in one genre should translate to successes in the other (for the two to be well integrated). RPGs normally have you bashing monsters, using skills, exploring and interacting with characters, all to level yourself and advance the story. But what if they leveled your town, and what if story advances brought new challenges and opportunities to the town? This might not be exactly where TZ's game is going, but it should hint at the possibilities.

To mix things everyone else says you can't mix, all you need is the right gameplay mechanic. Morrowind lets you build a town, even chosing what buildings will exist, but it's all through the mechanics of questing and dialog. (So never say never [smile])

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It sounds like you want to recreate the game 'Majesty'. you should give it a try, it's a good example of what not to do...

[edit: suppose I should detail why...

Mainly, the game had technical issues.
Secondarily, the game (like moo3) suffered from the game design idea that units/people cannot be controlled, only pushed/prodded/bribed. Dunno, it just didn't work.]

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Harvest Moon is definitely a sim/RPG. Azure Dreams, Soul Blazer, and Act Raiser are other interesting examples of RPG/sim hybrid games.

I have thought a lot about the fix up/build up activities in Harvest Moon and Azure Dreams, and also about gathering resources and building up tech trees in Warcraft/Starcraft. In Harvest Moon and Azure Dreams you start with an abandoned farm/poor desert town and characters who need help with various problems. You go and do the sim-like gameplay (farming, fishing, mining, fighting monsters) to earn treasure. You sell/use the treasure to upgrade yourself and the town. As you pass milestones in gemeplay you may also earn reactions from NPCs or key objects which can be given to NPCs, thus advancing the story. The story ends when the town has been completely upgraded and all the characters' problems have been solved, and/or when the PC passes a gameplay milestone (surviving 3 years, getting married, or defeating all existing levels if the gameplay has a set number of levels).

In Warcraft/Starcraft OTOH you had one (rarely more) objective to accomplish, but a limited number of resources to do it with. So you had to invest those resources effeciently to build up one branch of your tech tree, you couldn't just upgrade everything. So the different resources available in each level suggested different investment strategies, and the choice among those strategies determined not just whether you achieved the goal, but also _how_ you achieved the goal, which was the low-level 'story' told by each level of play.

In designing Xenallure I combined some of these ideas: the island Xenallure is like the abandoned farm, like the poor desert town, and also like a Warcraft/Starcraft level. There are buildings to be built, NPCs with problems to be fixed, resources to be gathered/earned through gameplay, and the island as a whole is somewhat like a sim city, with the challenge that you can only make changes from inside it as a mortal PC, not from outside it as a god.

To strengthen the RPG/story side of the game, unlike a goalless toy like Sims or Simcity, Xenallure has multiple specific strategic goals the player can play towards, and milestones on the path to each of these goals that advance the story. But to make the sim/strategic aspect (and accompanying replayability) stronger than in the RPG parts of Harvest Moon and Xenallure, there are a limited amount of resources, so the player has to choose which goals to invest the resources in working towards. Like being limited to exploring one branch of the tech tree per level in Warcraft/Starcraft, in Xenallure you are limited to exploring one branch of the plot tree per playthrough.

So anyway, here's my theory: in and sim/RPG there are two types of structure: the story and the tech tree. Both of these are structure of a type where only a linear journey of building up from the root to the branches is possible. In a standard RPG instead of a tech 'tree' there is only a linear progression of leveling up and a linear progress through the story, which happen at the same time. In a standard sim game OTOH each gameplay (or level) is a journey up the tech tree, with no progress through a story. But in some sim games such as the Starcraft singleplayer campaign many levels may be organized into a linear story or 'campaign'; thus cycles of climbing the tech tree are contained by one cycle through the plot. And in other sim games such as Harvest Moon bits of story may be triggered by progress up the tech tree; in this case mini-cycles of plot are contained by one linear path through the tech tree.

So in either case one is places inside the other. The outer one determines the journey through one gameplay, while the inner one determines the journey through one level of the game.

Xenallure takes things further by tying a branching plot to a branching tech tree in micro, macro, and meta cycles. At the lowest level subgames, combat, and puzzle-solving result in micro steps up the tech tree. These activities are organized into weeks of gametime/chapters of plot. Each chapter is thus a microcycle of both gameplay and atory. Approximately 7 of these chapters add up to one game, one journey through the macro tech/story tree of the island as a whole, where the branches are possible major story goals/end states of the island after one gameplay. And in turn the newgame+ feature means that successive macrocycles, or plays through the game, add up to a metacycle of the player's external perspective on the different possibilities of how the game can turn out over several playthroughs. This meta cycle consists of acheving several/all possible story goals and finding a story explanation for how these are consistent with each other, and what the ultimate meaning of it all is.

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Quote:
Original post by Wavinator
To mix things everyone else says you can't mix, all you need is the right gameplay mechanic.


Bingo. I'm working on a method that will very closely tie the strategy managment and RPG elements together. I don't particularly want to describe it here; partly because that part of the design is very unfinished, mostly because it will derail this thread into discussing my game, when I want to be discussing RPGs in general. Although if you want a hint, then read the longest thread that I've started here in the design forum [smile].

Telastyn: Yes, I've played Majesty; it's one of the games I'm using as a basis for design ideas. I actually quite liked it, but I agree that the amount of control you had over the heroes was minimal, and the heroes were a bit too stupid. But that's one of the closest games to describing what I'm wanting to discuss in this thread; Majesty was a strategy game, not an RPG, but it was based on RPG elements. So I'd like to include enough RPG elements to give my game an RPG feel.

P.S. You can build a town in Morrowind? Damn, I never got that far before my hard disk failure hosed the game; I'll have to play it again [smile].

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Age of Wonders? X-COM with, instead of strategic ground combat, RPG-style combat?

One thing I liked about these games was the way you had to be good at both managing resources/men/whatever outside of battle, and also be skilled when it came to the close-up ground battles. If you were only good at managing cities and always lost at combat, you'd eventually lose all of your cities to someone better at managing the fighting. If all you're good at is combat, then when you fail to manage your cities well you'll fall short of troops and you'll be overwhelmed no matter what kind of tactical genius you are.


Sounds like a really interesting project. Back on topic title:
-Character growth (both levels and personality)
-Different abilities/spells/weapons with different strategic uses
-Customizing, if it wasn't already covered by the above.

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All of you are more or less right, but wouldn't all of that still fall under the category of STRATEGY? and not simulation? In Harvest Moon you control a hero, you can do whatever the game allows you to do, in this case, farming and living a life, similar to sims but different. Simcity is not a strategy management game, however, it's a management game, if it could be called anything like that, even.

From what I understand, you want a gods eye view, and you want to have full control on people. I just don't understand how this could be done with RPG elements. I know black and white could be considered as a simulation/management game in a way, and also SOMEHOW people claim it has RPG elements in it, I think otherwise.

Just like Fournicolas said in the very beginning - They are two opposing genres, one has you controlling a hero or a team of heroes that save the world from something (Epic Story?), while the other has you managing a world, telling people to build building and houses and create your own world and do whatever you want with it.

I don't know, it's really weird...

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XVampireX, Fournicolas et. al.: I know it sounds weird; I like designing games that do things that I think haven't been done properly yet. I'm not really looking for how feasible the design is yet, I'm just brainstorming for ideas here.

It could be possible that I'm using the wrong terminology here. I don't know what games you've played, but let me describe my game a bit like this. Hopefully you've played at least one of these games:
RollerCoaster Tycoon and Theme Park gives the player the role is to manage a theme park.
Theme Hospital gives the player the role to manage a hospital.
Afterlife gives the player the role of managing their own version of heaven and hell.
Tropico gives the player the role of managing their own island dictatorship.
Tropico 2 gives the player the role of running their own pirate island.

You can think of my game being similar, except you manage a village set in an fantasy RPG style world. And, much like say Tropico 2 tries to capture everything "piratey" in their game, I'd like my game to capture everything "fantasy RPG". Which is why I'm brainstorming for what people like in that genre.

Now, there is a bit more to my game than that (the interactive storytelling part, which is the truly tricky part), but that's probably the closest description to the gameplay that I can give at the moment.

So, what is it that you think makes RPGs (especially fantasy styled ones) great? Even if you think RPGs are incompatible with this genre, if you list why you think they are incompatible (and why that element of game design is desirable), that might help. But I'd prefer to steer this thread back into a general discussion of great RPG design elements. But thanks for replying anyway! I might need your advice later, when I get around to nitty-gritty parts of the design [smile].

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Evolution of characters. I think that, and story, are the biggest seperators of strategy and RPG. Take a look at the game, Dragon Force (Sega Saturn). That's a great example of a strategy sim with terrific story. Character's also increased slightly and you could promote them to allow them to command more soldiers. Most sim like games simplify character growth potential. I don't follow why. If a learn-as-you-do system is implimented, the player doesn't need to take a lot of time messing with numbers.

I haven't read through all of the replies, so I'm kinda just jumping in through a window. Just ignore me if you have to repeat yourself.

Will the game focus on one person as the player, or will the player be a supernatural controlling factor like the Sims? Is there a goal? What will be entertaining? If nothing, don't fret. The Sims didn't have anything but lots of players fell in love with that.

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To help you better understand why RPGs are incompatible with the Mangement games, you should look here:

http://www.allrpg.com/elements.php3

It lists everything that exists in RPGs in a general overview.
If you think you could SOMEHOW (By a miracle?) Implement some of these, you could redefine the RPG genre.

As far as your topic goes here is what I think:

1. Some kind of character interaction, growth of character in one way or another.
2. Storyline, a good storyline with multiple choices to chose and your choices would ultimately decide your fate.
3. Combat, combat needs to be also interactive, it shouldn't be "Click sit wait repeat" but rather it should be real time, twitch based (Player skill/reflexes).
4. Good world layout, with a poor world layout you would feel either in wrong place or the world just looks unattractive.

That's basically it.

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Quote:
Original post by XVampireX
http://www.allrpg.com/elements.php3
Quote:
1. Original Epic Storyline - RPGs contain some sort of grand and epic story that involves the characters and a villian, and usually trying to save the world from destruction or an outside threat

I find it ammusing that they have "original" in the title, but then go on to explain your average typical over-used plot as a requirement of being an RPG.

I also totally disagree with them. You don't need an epic story to have a terrific RPG. Fallout pretty much shoved this theory up collective arses when they sent you out for the water chip. It was a really daring choice to have the player be sent on such an un-heroic chore. I suppose you could say the "Master" was the epic part of the story, but that had little to do with the fun of the overall game. It was just there to give a meaningful end to the game. The RPG Sega Genesis game, Shadowrun, is one of the best examples of this that comes to mind. The only reason I picked up Fallout at the store was because it reminded me of that great Cyberpunk theme that Shadowrun had. You could literally play the game for months without even talking to a story-driven NPC. A game built for stats munchkins.

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Of course it's not original in the true sense, but don't you think that no matter what game, even if it's the same "Kill the main villain" storyline, it still has twists? Not every single game is the same thing, the way you GET to the point of killing the main villain is the _original_ part of this statement.

Fallout is an RPG, by the way.

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I tend to concur, here, with what has been said previously:
The RPG genre has been, previously, defined by what the character could do, in terms of numbers. Eitehr you grind to better yourself, or you fight naturally whatever comes your way, and get better overtime, but one way or another, so far, console RPG has been about FIGHTING.
Let's take it one step further. What I DO like in tabletop RPGs is that they require you to INTERACT with other people, be they the Playing characters, your friends, or Non-Playing Characters, played by your Game-Master. But in some way, RolePlaying is all about making decisions and actions, and having to face their consequences. In this respect, it is pretty close to a management simulation.

And what is exciting in a console RPG is the story. Usually, it has a nice story that leads you gently by the hand, and asks you politely yet continuously to keep going ahead, not loosing time fooling around, and killing more and more ennemies, more and more dangerous. The more compeling the story, the less tedious the repeating of "go ahead" becomes. Moreover, I can just remember spending ages in FF8 trying to collect all the cards, or in M&M7 playing that card game, over and over... I don't know, it was fun...

Ah. And last but not least, what is ESSENTIAL, in my humble opinion, in a RPG is a believable world design. The secret of mana world, and sword of mana world were believable. They were also impossibly "cute" but still believable, in some very specific way. What youw ant, in a game in which you are going to immerse yourself, is, as has been put here and there in this forum, facing "suspension of disbelief". You want to believe, for a while, that things are normal, even if you are a 14-y-o 4f6i-tall kid fighting a monstrous cylcops armed with a club, and still manage to get out of it unscratched, thanks to your potions... If you must have fighting in your game, and unfortunately, apart from Fable or KotOR, very few games cnocentrate on the actual Role Playing, then make that fighting amusing, since you're likely to spend quite a while in the game's lifespan killing stuff...

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