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Izron

Is Microsoft giving the big FU to game devs?

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I keep reading about how Win32 is deprecated and how everything needs to be in managed code. So are they saying we need to port hundreds of thousands of lines of C-runtime compatible visibility, collision detection, and physics code over to a .NET language with no access to assembly? HAHAHA. The thought of this makes me just sick. What's the point of having SIMD instructions in a CPU if you can't utilize them in a game engine? This is just freaking me out somebody please put my fears to rest... or let me know I need to get to work on porting. Thanks

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Original post by Izron
So are they saying we need to port hundreds of thousands of lines of C-runtime compatible visibility, collision detection, and physics code over to a .NET language with no access to assembly?

No.

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Just as DOS was "deprecated" for many years since DOS3.3 was released, and yet, it was [strong]the[/strong] OS for PC games.

Tom#

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All major game developments studios have multiplatform engines (PC, PS2, NGC, xBox, PSP, etc.)
Microsoft has no mean to force all of them to make games specially for PC and you'll never see Sony with managed code ;).

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bullshit

Microsoft is still doing lot's of things for native code. If you see what kind of enhencements they have made to their 2005 c++ compiler (pogo, OpenMP etc.), and that directx 10 which has a lot of new stuff, is still mainly c++ based. They won't do that for something they find depracated.

even xbox 360 works with native code, and it won't run managed code out of the box.

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Original post by quasar3d
even xbox 360 works with native code, and it won't run managed code out of the box.

May I ask where you got this piece of information from? Or is this just rampant speculation again? (the part regarding not having the ability to run managed code out of the box)

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Original post by Saruman
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Original post by quasar3d
even xbox 360 works with native code, and it won't run managed code out of the box.

May I ask where you got this piece of information from? Or is this just rampant speculation again? (the part regarding not having the ability to run managed code out of the box)


microsofts talk on the gdc europe last week

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Original post by quasar3d
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Original post by Saruman
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Original post by quasar3d
even xbox 360 works with native code, and it won't run managed code out of the box.

May I ask where you got this piece of information from? Or is this just rampant speculation again? (the part regarding not having the ability to run managed code out of the box)


microsofts talk on the gdc europe last week

Very cool, tyvm for the info. I'm guessing there are no papers/slides yet available?

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Is Microsoft giving the big FU to game devs?


Definitely not. They are giving the Yuck Fou to everyone, regardless of their job, sex or political beliefs :)

I have seen the above idea on an early MSDN article quite some months ago. Namely, that, at least as a first step, they end support to standard winapi and strongly encourage everybody to migrate to .NET. But I would not worry for at least 4-5 years about complete lack of support for it, its way too deeply linked. (And I am a newby at .NET -> (therfore) .NET sucks..).

Did they talk about timeline at the conference? I'd very much like to know about that.

I still wonder how the idea of .NET writen drivers hasn't upset some stomachs yet. After all, they would have to take their own medicine if they go all the way through with it.

Tudor

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Original post by Shannon Barber
I don't see how they could build the CLR without the Win32/64 API.

In its current incarnation, I don't suppose they can, but with each new OS, they have the opportunity to reverse the situation - where once the Win API was the base, with the CLR being written to run on top of it, in the future, the CLR will become the base, with the Win API will be a thin layer over the top.

At least, that's how I understand it from the vague rumours I've read on forums like this.

John B

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They may, at some point, depreciate Win32 API fully, but untill there is a complete transparent wrapper for unmanaged code (ie, like a sandbox), they have no way of getting rid of unmanaged applications in general. On the other hand, that sandbox is a full possibility in the future. Microsoft has no intention on limiting the portability TO its operating system, as is clear from those who pay close attention to its unix porting APIs, and similar areas, that this is just not the case in the future either.

The future can go one of two ways, either microsoft can reimplement how the C/C++ compiler works, creating embedded CLR rather then its mock attempts to reinvent C++, or CLR will need to be opened up and implemented as a standard availiable for all operating systems. C++++

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Its actually just the opposite, MS is working hard to improve the development enviroment/platform for all developers, with a big chunk off their efforts having to do with games and multimedia. Games are the 3rd largest computer use as reported in a recent study, just behind the internet and email. I believe the numbers indeicated that 20-25% of people use their computers to play games regularly, making it a major factor in the success of the platform as a whole.

Sometimes one has to adopt a new paradigm to move forward, However. For example MS has said that DX 10 would break compatability with prior versions 7, 8 and 9, to provide a better platform going forward. MS can't simple abandon all that DX 7-9 software though, so there will be a compatability layer, probably a call-translator, as is already done with DX 3 and 5.

MS, as big as they are, are nothing without their developers, so it benefits them to make life as easy on us as possible. They've also taken steps to provide free software to us in the form of the free Visual C++ compiler and other offerings. I hope to see them provide a basic version of their IDE along with the compiler as well in the future (Most [all?] other platform vendors provide free compilers/IDEs as well.)

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Game programmers are normally slow-on-the-update when it involves a switch of system, its like people buring Win16/32 boxes when everyone migrated away from DOS.

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C++ is the language of choice for most game developers.

You may have noticed that the Win32 API is written in C (and as such contains some nasty bits of code that make it difficult to use cleanly in C++)

What Microsoft is doing providing a new object-oriented Windows API in C++ (that is standard C++ not .NET). Surely this helps developers (personally, I'm looking forward to being able to pass a member function as my window procedure without it requiring a few hundred extra lines of code).

At a time when MS is losing serious ground to Linux (many government organisations and coporations are switching to open source) why would Microsoft make want to make software for their OS more difficult to write?

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Original post by Nitage
What Microsoft is doing providing a new object-oriented Windows API in C++ (that is standard C++ not .NET). Surely this helps developers (personally, I'm looking forward to being able to pass a member function as my window procedure without it requiring a few hundred extra lines of code).


You mean things like the WTL?

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Original post by Nitage
At a time when MS is losing serious ground to Linux (many government organisations and coporations are switching to open source) why would Microsoft make want to make software for their OS more difficult to write?

Umm Microsoft hasn't lost any actual marketshare to Linux as of yet, and I highly doubt that could ever happen. Right now Microsoft has 4 main competitors, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, and Windows XP for the new OS. Anything else like Linux, Apple, etc are just a drop in the bucket and don't amount to much. Maybe when there are more Linux users than a 10 year old OS by Microsoft they might begin to worry.

Serious ground? .. lol slashdot?

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Right now Microsoft has 4 main competitors, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, and Windows XP for the new OS


What do you mean, competitors? MS owns them - and MS no longer supports win98 - no more new win98 updates.

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Original post by drarem
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Right now Microsoft has 4 main competitors, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, and Windows XP for the new OS


What do you mean, competitors? MS owns them


Exactly. As far as non-server OS's go, MS has no competition except the people that refuse to switch to the next hacked versionOS.

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Right now Microsoft has 4 main competitors, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, and Windows XP for the new OS


What do you mean, competitors? MS owns them - and MS no longer supports win98 - no more new win98 updates.

You missed the point. Microsoft doesn't have to work hard at making people switch from Linux to Windows, they have to work hard to get people to UPGRADE Windows. They only get money when they sell new versions of the software, their market share alone doesn't generate revenue. I would guess that there are more people using Windows 2000 than Linux, and those are the people Microsoft would like to get to upgrade.

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You missed the point.


Berate me for that, will you?

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Microsoft doesn't have to work hard at making people switch from Linux to Windows, they have to work hard to get people to UPGRADE Windows.


MS won't have to work hard to sell it, they'll do what they've always done which is stop supporting win2k, winxp, etc in a few years they'll have a compatibility mode for win2k, win me, etc, especially when the 64-bit becomes the new thing.

It wasn't too hard to upgrade to XP back then, despite the doomsayers like me.

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You missed the point.


Berate me for that, will you?

Quote:
Microsoft doesn't have to work hard at making people switch from Linux to Windows, they have to work hard to get people to UPGRADE Windows.


MS won't have to work hard to sell it, they'll do what they've always done which is stop supporting win2k, winxp, etc in a few years they'll have a compatibility mode for win2k, win me, etc, especially when the 64-bit becomes the new thing.

It wasn't too hard to upgrade to XP back then, despite the doomsayers like me.

I didn't berate you, I told you. Anyway, it isn't the difficulty of the upgrade. And it isn't whether or not Microsoft still supports it. There are still workplaces that use Windows 3.11 and people at home using Windows 95. For these people it isn't so much the technical considerations that keep them from upgrading, its whether or not they feel it is worth it. Upgrading Windows isn't cheap, and the cost is hard to justify because their isn't a clear cut improvement like "My scretary will type twice as fast".

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Original post by Nitage
C++ is the language of choice for most game developers.


Not... strictly... true. It's fair to say that most game developers tend to use C or C++ for low-level development work, but higher-level languages are starting to creep in. There's a lot more scripting going on than there used to be, for example.

Renderware 3.x is written in C, not C++. So there are large chunks of plain old C code sitting in many games out there on the shelves today.

Oh yes: Chris "The Nutter" Sawyer, of "Rollercoaster Tycoon" fame, writes his games in -- wait for it, wait for it! -- x86 assembly language.

*

I'm also unconvinced that it's truly a meaningful "choice" when the available tools for this trade limit your options. It's not as if the PS3 and XBox 360 devkits include a full-on, super-optimising COBOL compiler.


--
Sean Timarco Baggaley

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They are giving the Yuck Fou to everyone, regardless of their job, sex or political beliefs :)


Hey! Nobody talks about my mamma like that! :P

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