Quote:Original post by Silvermyst
It's up to employees and consumers alike to pressure them to do so (not government).

Consumers maybe, but that sounds like a quick pink slip for employees.



@Daniel Miller - Enemy soldiers? I think that's extremist. Such a response would turn a riot into a civil war. Putting out the fire with gasoline

Quote:Original post by sinx
... gouvernement built high rises appartment towers for the poors ...

This was in the 50s-70s.
Most of your knowledge of the situation contains true elements but some details or fallacies make the whole extremely biased and caricatural, in a typical anglo-saxon way to bash France. By replicating this bias you miss some elements specific to France and you also miss elements tht can be generalized to most countries in Europe, whatever the system, or even America.

These appartments were considered as 1st class in these times of reconstruction (after the destructions of WW2). Modern, well equipped and comfortable. Later they were filled more and more with immigrants, because of the demographic situation (despite a boom of the natives) and the needs of the growing industry. Also 68 came, and the right-wing in power and the industry called for immigrants to counter the social claims for higher wages (blame capitalism and the "slave costs less law", not socialism here). Social promotion worked better for the natives in these lower classes because of the linguistical and cultural advantage. This scheme finally lead to ethnical concentrations de facto, although none actually planned them cynically. But in the end a process of ethnicization made the cites actually become ghettoes à la NY 70s. A comparable situation does not exist in the USA under the same form because social housing was developped another way (WW2, previous city shape, etc...).

This process created a shift from integrationism to communautarism.
What fails in France is not the integration model. Integration was wished and planned. But de facto communautarism (the anglo saxon model seen from here) rose by itself. From a social concentration to an ethnical concentration, in the process of deindustrialization (in the 70s-90s). And this has not been countered soon enough. And this is what failed. The second or third generation of north african immigrants pefectly realize that in France the goal is to be fully integrated culturally : keep your roots but in addition to a french identity not a substraction. And thus the feeling of rejection or special treatment becomes total for many (but not all) of them. And how can they really explain it all ? "What's the difference between us and the italians or poles of the 30s ? Religion ? The french fear islam (maybe true) and they were colonialists, thus it's truely because of racism that we are in this situation. Then we hate em, etc ..."

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Those buildings are not really well maintained and they often degenerate into gang filled drug houses

More or less but causes and consequences are interleaved in a vicious circle. Ethnical and unintegrated concentration also aggravated the process. In the last 20 years, unemployement, criminality (hooliganism if you want) made these housing more degenerescent. In the end it's quite logical that gangs prefer slums and squats to prosper. It's the vicious circle completed. But these days huge efforts are being made to break these vertical architectures and humanize. Still it takes considerable means to do it and money.

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but recently ( a year ago or so ) gouvernement as almost cut all the budgets on help for the poor... so it got even worst... and they did this in a time where france is supposed to be growing economicly.

It's what the communists would say here. There is some truth in it. But not on a scale that would explain it all.

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I have been to France once and the gap between the very rich and the poor is so extreme it was shocking... they have bridges with gold and crystal on it.. yet theres sick homeless people sleeping underneath and no one seem to care.

Your vision is somehow true, but your general conclusion is archi caricatural. It's more an optical illusion. Think of the minimum wages and social welfare, there are some true punks, but I'd say somehow they choose to refuse the welfare system and the society as a whole. But don't compare the strass of the touristical places in the capital and the "slums" . It's true that Paris lets one see an impressive gradient from the best (center) to the worst (suburbs) in terms of architecture. But don't forget the cities have a very different history compared to american metropoles. Also think that the contrast is less visible in other cities. In Paris, except in very small and highly priviledged areas (just as in London or in any big city), probably most of the apparent wealth you have seen is just made of public monuments, maintained by the state, and the royalties go to the citizens pockets through tourism. Also many private building must be upheld correctly when they are "historically classified" by the ministry of culture.

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add that to the fact that about 200 people died in the last couple of years in abandoned buildings that illegal refugees were living in after those buildings burnt down.

True (but not 200, far less I think) but there is no direct correlation with the slums outside Paris. It's more downtown. It's very hard for workers to find housing inside Paris (intra muros). And some "hotels" (sleep dealers) exploit the situation, sometimes with illegal immigrant workers. There is an housing deficit in France. There is also some "racism" by landowners, though it's illegal. Amalgam and money (risk) is more the reason : arab or black = poor = more risks not to be payed. Else I remember once, near my flat, an immigrant worker was so tired (or drunk) that he let his meal burn, I managed to help stopping the fire as it started. In these stories people were caught sleeping (no fire alarm ;/) but I doubt this has anything to do with the riots, except in some mediatic over-exploitation.

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and then last week 2 young guys from the "cite" who were chased by the police died electrocuted when tried to hide into some sort of mini power plant.... the riots began..

Good excuse. To me it's morally non sensical. The least pretext was taken but the situation was explosive. And some gangs and islamists have planned a large scale riot for a long time now, it's their only dream to actually exist. Well on TV it'd be better. In fact the controversies around Sarkozy and the global context determines the timing. Why it happened exactly now is how a fire starts in a bush, or the butterfly theory. It could have been yesterday or tomorow.

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There is also Black people from Africa.... and as you can imagine it a lot of those persons live in the poor neighberhoods neglected by the gouvernment.

To be true also hugely neglected by some the inhabitants too. Billions have been engulfed for nothing. Don't you see the riotters burn the schools of their younger brothers or the offices of their parents ? Then can you imagine the day by day degradations ? The problem is not material, it's moral and cultural. French workers or previous immigrants (italian, polish) workers have been even poorer in the past, but they would never have destroyed their own houses ! But they had work, that is a role and thus dignity.

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France is also a racist nation.... well maybe not a lot more than most of the world but there is some racist incident and hate crimes that makes ones percieve it is a racist nation....

The perception is utterly misleading. I'd probably say France is the least racist country in the world. Go to any popular bar, even in the chic Paris. People mix and talk. France used to be racist (colonial times, war in Algeria), possibly, but never more than in any other country. Le Pen makes 20% sometimes, but not even all his voters are racist. Imagine that even he has a quantity of black, jewish or arab supporters, as they see him as "order" or "strong". (though it's absurd I admit).

But frankly, the most racist expressions I have heard lately come from africans or arabs. I'd rather say that France is considerably anti-racist, and this leads to problem concerning immigration. Anti-racism is so dogmatic, that the demographics of immigration are not even known or kept secret (anti-discrimination laws). Compare the interacial weddings in USA and France. I don't know the digits, but I am ready to bet ! I just consider my closest friends, they are nearly all married with foreigners of any race. Or even amongst the people I meet randomly, it's very rare I hear racist expressions.

Quote:
a mess just like the L.A riots in 1992 after the a judge said the officers were not guilty for beating up so baddly Rodney king.

Yes at first order it's comparable. There are some analogies, but limited. But this time you have a strong religious component, even if it's not general.

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The current President of France stole money that was suppose to go to cheap housing to finance is campaign a couple years ago too ! what a mess politic is !

25 years ago. The finances of the political campaigns were hypocritical. Politicians had officially no money for it, but they needed a lot for TV spots etc... Lobbying is not a tradition here, so mixing money and politics could not be perceived well, officially. So some corruption (count tenth of millions)was "necessary". But things have been regulated in the great lines.

Now I'll conclude by adding some factors I consider as true, but none of them enough to generalize. It's just a combination of causes :

- some police forces act unconsequently or brutally, because they are unprepared or because some become racist by tiredness and depression. This can cause a huge ressent in the populations. But don't generalize. Simply even if most cops do their job correctly, the ressent caused by the bad ones is not attenuated. Frustration growth on both sides, specially when some islamists or gangsters recruit and tell the "victims" what they want to hear : "These pigs are all racist, you're like the iraqians, palestinians, etc..."

Still note that in the story of the gas grenade in the mosquee, my intuition would blame the gangs. I think they intentionnally brought the policemen there and one policeman said the one gangster threw a grenade to cause confusion and emotion. Not sure was planned by islamists. Maybe the gangsters found this way to escpe, and one saw an opportunity for a huge confusion. I'd tend to believe the police in this case, they'd not be dumb enough to add a religious dimension to typical urban criminality.

- the unemployement of the first generations caused the deepest moral disruptions for the next gen. Why work, when you get fired like that after 30 years of hard work and low wages ? Why try to get a job, since none is available for us ? Why hear anything from the parents. They don't even talk anymore anyway. Why succeed at school ?

- welfare (possibly), soft drug dealing or far better and proactive, an easy promotion through gangsterism, all these paths being the easiest ways.

- finally a reaction of racism (against the perceived diffuse racism) or jihadism could complete the moral gap.

All in all, my perception is somehow comparable to Eelco. It's stupid to blame one reason mainly. Racism, unemployement, architecture, material means ? The initial cause is that the quantitative influx of immigrants in the 70s (millions), specially from a nation that had been at war with France just a few years ago, was irresponsible. The religious and cultural difficulty was underestimated, as well as the foreseable deindustrialization process. This combined 3 main difficulties compared to the successful integrations of the past (poles, italians). And it's the responsibility of the right and of the capitalist forces, not the left. Then the consequences have been enhanced by the laissez faire of the left, possibly. That's the non politically correct but first order truth. The last guilt is for Le Pen. In the 80s his "mediatisation" of racist and xenophobic expression just changed the situation from difficult to quasi-impossible. But I wrote quasi.

Now I see already see that some (I wrote some OK) american voicy nuts prophetize the worst with barely hidden contempt. Extrapolate some disorders, still far less impressive than the riots of LA BTW, to an armaggeddon. But then they'd just confirm their deep ignorance of the history of France and western europe, (that is their own history BTW). France is like Greece at the times of Rome. It has an awesome capacity to integrate immigrants or even conquer the soul of the invaders (the franks christianized, the vikings francized, etc...). This will take time, but this capacity won't extinguish magically after 2000 years.

[Edited by - Charles B on November 7, 2005 11:23:10 PM]

Quote:Original post by Daniel Miller
That analogy would be valid if the only goal was halting future damage (instead of also punishing those who are inflicting it).

It seems to me that the goal is to halt future damage, so it would not be wise to lable the rioters as enemies nor would it be wise to mix punishment into efforts to quell the riots. At the very least, there should be trials before punishment.

Quote:


Most of your knowledge of the situation contains true elements but some details or fallacies make the whole extremely biased and caricatural, in a typical anglo-saxon way to bash France.

theres a stereotypical way to see anglo-saxon people if i ever saw one... i am francophone ! :) my main language is french !!! i was born speaking french and i have done it all my life...

how was i bashing ? i made so many comparison with the U.S.A and nuances like " could make one perceive that " how can you think i was bashing...

anyway... im not going to respond as extensively as you did... and lets just say that your message was pretty close to mine

but obviously since you live there... you felt very concerned and wanted to pinpoint exactly what you thougth could be the cause. Again... its politics... views and opinions.

I have the impression that you think i was in favor of all those riots.... i am not, i was just trying to explain the basics behind it and my opinions on why something like this could be going on and i still stand behing my opinions.

i KNOW that most of my obeservations were right and so do you as you said " true , i agree, this is true but " and other things of that nature about ten times when i made about 8 explanations... you further explained it adding some bashing and racist comments troughout.

i did not bash anyone and told the truth the way i perceived it and so did you.
and again.. we seem to agree on 95% of the things except from some minor viewpoints differences , so i dont understand why you reacted so strongly hehe

maybe its that stereo-typical french way of over-reacting i keep hearing about.

My favorite quotes of you prooving that France is the least racist nation in the world

Quote:
-There is also some "racism" by landowners
-Ethnical and unintegrated concentration also aggravated the process
-It's stupid to blame one reason mainly. Racism, unemployement, architecture, material means ? The initial cause is the quantitative influx of immigrants in the 70s
-Le Pen. In the 80s his "mediatisation" of racist and xenophobic expression
-details or fallacies make the whole extremely biased and caricatural, in a typical anglo-saxon way
-a reaction of racism (against the perceived diffuse racism) or jihadism could complete the moral gap
-american voicy nuts prophetize the worst with barely hidden contempt. Extrapolate some disorders, still far less impressive than the riots of LA BTW, to an armaggeddon. But then they'd just confirm their deep ignorance of the history of France and western europe
-money (risk) is more the reason : arab or black = poor = more risks not to be payed
- some police forces act unconsequently or brutally, because they are unprepared or because some become racist by tiredness and depression
-Else I remember once, near my flat, an immigrant worker was so tired (or drunk) that he let his meal burn, I managed to help stopping the fire as it started

yeah immigrant workers are drunk all the time and put peoples live in danger while being drunk... and France is the least racist nation in the world

[Edited by - sinx on November 8, 2005 1:18:55 AM]

such courtesy would have been granted if proof of non-discriminative character judgement hability was made

Quote:Most of your knowledge of the situation contains true elements but some details or fallacies make the whole extremely biased and caricatural, in a typical anglo-saxon way to bash France. "

assuming i was from english origins for having a certain viewpoint was certainly judgemental, i am using "judgemental " as im not sure the term racist could apply in that case. That comment was completly non neccessary and so was the ( or drunk ) assuming the immigrant worker was drunk . He could have made is point whitout it... in fact adding this quote would make anyone raise an eyebrow... well in non-racist countries anyway.

Quote:
some police forces act unconsequently or brutally, because they are unprepared or because some become racist by tiredness and depression "

yeah i hate being unprepared for a task.. makes me racist too... just like after a hard day of work or when i feel down.. i get so racist.... THESES ARE EXCUSES for being racist... HE IS TRYING TO RATIONALISE WHY ITS OK TO BE RACIST IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES !!!

how much more racist quotes do you want from him ?

Quote:
he was there helping him put the fire out. were you?

as fas as this question goes, i am not even able to comprehend the lack of logic needed to come up with it

[Edited by - sinx on November 8, 2005 11:44:14 AM]

Quote:Original post by sinx

Quote:
Most of your knowledge of the situation contains true elements but some details or fallacies make the whole extremely biased and caricatural, in a typical anglo-saxon way to bash France.

theres a stereotypical way to see anglo-saxon people if i ever saw one... i am francophone ! :) my main language is french !!! i was born speaking french and i have done it all my life...

how was i bashing ?

LOL ! This should prove your perspicacity : "France is a racist nation". And that's exactly the main stereotype I noticed so many times in the american and english media. I am not naive I read english press nearly each week ! My words are never groundless. Even if I know the significant differences, the fact that you are from Quebec does not change fundamentally the area of mediatic common thought you are living in. The further you live from a country, the shortest the news are and thus the more inclined to overgeneralizations. The reverse is less true the other way (the USA perceived in the EU) because we are far more informed through the economical hegemony of US/UK media.

Quote:
" could make one perceive that "
how can you think i was bashing...

I perfectly noticed this "french" (proximity with french realities) touch. But it was a very late correction in the formal construction of your sentence.

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I have the impression that you think i was in favor of all those riots...

Your paranoia here ;)

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...you further explained it adding some bashing and racist comments troughout ...

Oh well ! That must be true ! Let's see it ROFLMAO

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so i dont understand why you reacted so strongly hehe
maybe its that stereo-typical french way of over-reacting i keep hearing about.

I may give you this point. Gallic or latin temper whatever ... though it's just another "racist" generalization, but it may hold some truth. Concerning me, I just deeply dislike unfairness and fallacies. Racism is a far too big word. Racism was linked to the eugenist theories of the SS. Else mixing social discriminations, xenophobia and racism is a dangerous path. It weakens the meaning as long as hypocrites overexploit it, and add layers over layers of separate truths to it.

Quote:
-There is also some "racism" by landowners

You probably understood the quotes refered to a social and economical process. Zola described pretty well how the rich don't like poors in the neighboorhood. Now this society of bankers and insurances lead to such situations, risks are the evil, fear the fuel. If's not principally racism, it's more social discrimination and the normal deviance of capitalism anyway.

- Ethnical and unintegrated concentration also aggravated the process.
Integrationism is JUST the opposite of racism. It's what your american background refuses to consider as essential in this issue. It's the french ideal. Integrationism is helping a melting pot, where people exchange the best, and add it to the common pot. Communautarism (which is segregation) is what happened because France could not handle this new demographic pressure quantitatively. At least not in 2 generations concerning the africans. Still many arabs or africans have already succeeded, quite well and quickly. Simply there is a problem of mass.

"- It's stupid to blame one reason mainly. Racism, unemployement, architecture, material means ? The initial cause is the quantitative influx of immigrants in the 70s"
Can you tell me the relation between demographic concerns and racism ? A french lower class worker uprooted in China, would have the same difficulties : adapt to a totally different language and culture. And if the situation makes him live in tower with immigrants only, the result would be the same. Can't you understand that these towers were a response to a quantitative issue ? And that this technically is why the model shifted from integration (the ideal) towards communautarism (the issue). If you seek the roots of this evil, you can go back to WW2, WW1, the Napoleonian wars, the monarchy exhausted its ressources as it supported America. It's a longwave demographic process, with french specificities (center of many EU conflicts).

So where is racism (in a moral meaning), telling that newcomers have difficulties is racist ? ROFLMAO ? What's next ? "You can not have specific problems man, I can't help you else I would be racist". I m not kidding. It's what happens with some politically correct antiracist hypocracy.

"- Le Pen. In the 80s his "mediatisation" of racist and xenophobic expression"
Yes. Le Pen represents 5% of truely racist cretins. You'll find 5% racist cretins in every country. What I meant is this had consequences in how immigrants, already weakened socially, ended to perceive France. If 1 guy in 20 insults you or one cop in 20 beats you unfairly because of racist prejudices, then you have a great deal of probability to become racist in reaction too. And this virus is a process that radicalizes part of the police and the riotters of today. But this does not require the whole society to be racist.

"- details or fallacies make the whole extremely biased and caricatural, in a typical anglo-saxon way"
That's not racism. It's objectivity. And it was precisely on your "France is a racist nation" point, which I have seen several times on US or UK networks. POINT. You are the one to blame for this parenthesis. Anyway it's not US/UK specific, bias always exists, specially when concern and information is low, and more when a situation of competition and rivalry exists (US/EU or UK/Fr). When you have guys like Murdoch and neo cons cabalists, things get even worse.

"- a reaction of racism (against the perceived diffuse racism) or jihadism could complete the moral gap"
Seems you have a moral problem to deal with realities. Oh don't tell me the truth, racist ! LOL I have met and discussed with such guys, I know what I am talking about ! You always need somethignto fill your soul and avoid a complete depression.

"- american voicy nuts prophetize the worst with barely hidden contempt."
Very subtle and honest to remove the some ! Would I care if you told the truth : Le Pen is racist ? 5% of nuts. Alas the problem is YOU wrote a "racist nation". You should not care when I say that some neo-cons nuts say so (I'd guess they are more than 5% to be anti-french racists these days). Because It's what I have read from them, just a few hours ago. I never write anything groundlessly.


"- money (risk) is more the reason : arab or black = poor = more risks not to be payed"
Pff. There re some characterized racist behaviours surely. The same 5% or 10% maybe. But once again, you fail to see it's "social segregation" not "skin color racism" principally. Anyway social discrimination alone is just enough to appear as racist. People just care of their money. What's your job ? Where do you live actually ? Ah, "Le Slum" ... Well he could be a gangster. Laws exist and try to fight this trend. But in depth it's mainly social and economical. And that's why the former process of gethoization (the towers) is hard to reverse.

"- some police forces act unconsequently or brutally, because they are unprepared or because some become racist by tiredness and depression"
Yes they are also insulted and brutalized by those who have been insulted by, etc ... That's the vicious circle I mentionned. And what about Rodney ? There is nothing specific to France, nuts everywhere ...

- Else I remember once, near my flat, an immigrant worker was so tired (or drunk) that he let his meal burn, I managed to help stopping the fire as it started

Quote:
yeah immigrant workers are drunk all the time and put peoples live in danger while being drunk... and France is the least racist nation in the world

I knew this guy, and even shared drinks with him, I just report bare facts ! It's up to your imagination and bias to introduce this racist correlation. Typical of devoid anti-racist and hypocritical political correctness. In the end, you try to infer that a guy (me) who chose to live in a difficult area, who had 50% of foreign friends, groomsman of a malian who married a girl from brittany, well this guy is racist ! ROFLMAO ! Don't you see that you are the only responsible of inducing racism !

You'd be amazed to hear what arab or african people can tell about immigration. If you suspect me of racism, well you'd be amazed ... It's true some are over sensitive. But they soon reckonize sincerity, they praise the words of truth, because this means consideration for their true story. But they laugh at the fearful pseudo-antiracist hypocrites of the bourgeoisie who would never put a real step in their direction.

Else, got these digits of interracial weddings instead of jackassing because I was honest enough to expose the causes, all of them ? But you distorted it all to let it appear as a justification of your first claim "racist nation". And ou engulfed me with it. That's the only characterized "racist" process I have seen here ;)

I have been to several places too, and I have been discussing with strangers who have been living in various countries. Who genocided the indians ? The aborigens ? The jews ? The armenians ? Massacrated Nankin ? I doubt many nations in the world can tell anything to France concerning racism. Who established the human rights and spread it all over the planet ? Such things can not have been created by a racist nation. This nation has never been built on a race.

I hope you enjoyed being 99% OK with that ! :)

[Edited by - Charles B on November 8, 2005 12:20:57 PM]

Quote:
Original post by sinx

Quote:
some police forces act unconsequently or brutally, because they are unprepared or because some become racist by tiredness and depression "

yeah i hate being unprepared for a task.. makes me racist too... just like after a hard day of work or when i feel down.. i get so racist.... THESES ARE EXCUSES for being racist... HE IS TRYING TO RATIONALISE WHY ITS OK TO BE RACIST IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES !!!
how much more racist quotes do you want from him ?

If you think so, you are a fool and it's not being racist since I don't know your race. I gave enough proofs of it, I am just the extreme opposite of a racist, I won't reckon you no your rights for starting a pissing distance contest with me on this subject.

Where did I write "ITS OK" ? Explaining is not justifying. It's being able to understand, make a true judgment and solve problems. If you don't understand much of the situation, in depth, I also don't feel enough compassion and understanding for that.

Quote:
being unprepared for a task.. makes me racist too

There was a OR ! Do you know boolean logic ? OR can be XOR (and is in this case)

Unpreparation :
Leads to spreading oil on fires sometimes, when there is no racism at all at start. Can't you see the GIs in Iraq for instance ?

You know not everyone shows the same cold blood as you do. Do you know that those in place in these cites are generally the least experienced and young policemen. Some have never lived near a cite, and feel a bit like the GIs in Iraq, every proportion kept. So instead of yelling like a nut ... could you try to understand what was intended in my writings. Would you do better than them in a situation of extreme stress ? Don't you know that a base of racism not listening and judging too quickly.

I like you very politically correct morality. I bet that with your COOL emotional reactions you'd become a racist cop after two weeks of job in the riots. Once one of your friend has been killed or severely injured, once you have seen fireman being insulted and lapided. Or you'd become a riot nut in the minute after you have seen urban violence and a cop hit "unfairly" one of our friends.

Unpreparation feeds the vicious circle of racism expanding, mainly in intensity, in some nut heads. But the truth is that its growth is limited numerically because France is fundamentally anti-racist (83% voted against Le Pen). Again it's not a nation built around a particular folk.

When people don't devide emotions, prejudices and fail the minimal efforts of understanding, that's with such reactions that we end up in the mess. I gave every detail to understand a process, nearly, and it added far more to your first post, if you had read it carefully. This gives even clues on how the issue could be solved.

[Edited by - Charles B on November 8, 2005 12:49:45 PM]