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vr_man

EMOTIONS

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EMOTIONS I am a twenty-four year old male that does not enjoy playing most videogames because I believe that they are stupid and childish. When I was a child I was able to experience a wide range of emotions from playing videogames. In the present time the only thing that I feel when I play a game is boredom or excitement when I am competing against someone in a game that has a 2-player mode. The last time that I felt something like fear, happiness or, excitement when I was playing a game with a story line was back in the mid 90's. I remember being surprised at the end of the game D when I found out that D was Dracula. I remember being a little scared when I was playing the first Resident Evil game because I always played it in front of a large television at night with the lights turned off and the sound turned up. I remember feeling proud of myself because I was always able to complete games like Myst or Riven in a relatively short period of time. In the present time if I want to feel something other than boredom when I am looking at my television I have to watch a good movie or a television show. The same thing applies to most adults. Some of these adults are people that used to play videogames when they were younger but they stopped, as they got older. It does not have to be this way. The videogame industry is currently a 25 billion dollar a year industry and most people in the industry believe that it will be a 50 billion dollar a year industry in four or five years. I believe that it could be so much bigger if some of the games were made for mature teenagers and adults. I am not referring to the games that are rated M. Those games are childish also. Some of them just contain a lot of animated violence. When I am watching a movie or a television show I am able to experience emotions that I was never able to feel when I was playing a game. I can experience fear, sadness, excitement, joy, anxiety, or sympathy. I am able to experience these emotions because of the great scripts that are written by some of the talented writers out there. I believe that adults should also be able to experience these emotions when they are playing games with a story line. MAKING A GAME THAT INVOKES AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE IN ADULTS THAT DO NOT ENJOY PLAYING VIDEOGAMES With each year that passes the number of adults that are playing videogames continues to increase. It is one of the reasons why sales in the videogames industry are increasing every year. Some of the adults that play videogames are the people that were playing the first videogames that were made back in the late 70's and early 80's. That can make the age of adult gamers anywhere from 18 to 50+ years old. The majority of adult gamers are between the ages of 18 and 30. Most of the people in this age group are people that still enjoy playing the childish games that they played when they were kids. Some of the people in this age group are people like myself that only enjoy playing specific kinds of games occasionally when they are bored. The majority of the games that the people in my group play are sports games. There is a very small percentage of adults over the age of 30 that play videogames on a regular basis. I believe that sales in the videogame industry could quickly triple or quadruple if a company or companies could find a way to increase the percentage of adults over the age of 30 that play videogames. I am one of the few people that enjoyed playing FMV games in the 90's despite the fact that most of the game play was horrible. Adults that do not enjoy playing videogames do not experience any emotions other than boredom when they are looking at images that are not photo realistic. How many adults do you think watch cartoons on a regular basis? You could be thinking that they are millions of adults that are interested in things like cartoons, comic books, and videogames. Millions of adults around the world are interested in these things, but it only represents a small percentage of the adult population. They are hundreds of millions of adults that would rather watch a good movie or a television show. It would be much easier to get an adult to care about photo-realistic characters. A game can be creative and it can have a good story. But if the visuals and the sound in the game are not good enough, the average adult will not enjoy it. With today's technology (HD-DVD's, Blueray discs) it is possible to design FMV games that will give the players much more control and options in the games than what they had in the past. The games will also look much better. The best games for the PS3 and PC during the next three years could have photo-realism that will be close to the CGI images in the movies like Final Fantasy or the Animatrix. With each year that passes we are getting closer to photo-realism. Companies like ATI and Nvidia are releasing better graphic cards every year. Companies like Intel are releasing faster microprocessors every year. Some of the videogames that are being released every year may look a little better than the year before but the game play remains the same. It is still an industry of childish recycled ideas with an extremely small amount of innovation. It is up to the programmers and the writers that are out there to make a change. FORMING AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT WITH A FICTIONAL CHARACTER How many times have you cried when you were watching a sad part of a dramatic movie or television show? How many times did you feel sorry for a fictional character in a movie or television show that was suffering from physical or emotional pain? If you are capable of caring about someone other than yourself then there is a good chance that you formed an emotional attachment with a fictional character in a least one movie or television show. Now I want you to try to think about a fictional character in a videogame that you formed an emotional attachment with. I am guessing that most of you did not form an emotional attachment with any of the fictional characters in a videogame. If an important character in a game is killed you can always press the reset button, or you can continue the game from a place where you saved earlier. I don’t know about you but when I am playing a game with a story line I don’t even care about the character that I am controlling. Most games are designed in a way that allows you to play recklessly and make stupid mistakes without dying. Some of you may be thinking that it would be difficult to develop a game that causes the same wide range of emotions that a person can feel from watching a dramatic movie or television show. Most great pieces of art were difficult to create, but I believe that it could be easier to create an emotional videogame than a movie. When a company releases a movie it is usually 90 min to 120 min long. The longest movies are little over 3 hours long. It is not easy to make a movie that can have an emotional effect on people within this short period of time. Everything in the movie has to fit together perfectly. It is much easier to play with people's emotions with a television show. The writers, directors, and editors can have anywhere from 500 min to 1000 min of programming during a season to get into the minds and hearts of the people that are watching their show. They are many other things to consider. Most movies don’t have cliffhangers unless they are planning to make a sequel. The writers that are working on a television show can write a couple of bad episodes and the show can still be successful. However the dialog and the story in a movie has to be perfect for it to be considered a great movie. With technology like blueray discs and HD-DVD's it will be possible to give a gamer hundreds of hours of high quality game play. The players will also be able to interact with the fictional characters. This could create a stronger emotional bond with the fictional characters in a game. If you are interested in making games that adults can enjoy the first thing that you should think about when you are designing a game is what makes the average person happy or sad. (Child, teenager, or adult) What would I have to do to make a person care about his or her avatar in the game or character in the game? All human beings have some things in common. We can’t help but like some things and hate some things. We all similarities but we are all unique. We like the things that we can relate to. We like the things that we can understand. We fear or hate the things that we do not understand. These are the things that talented people in the film industry are thinking about when they are working. It is all about psychology and human biology. WAR GAMES War is a part of American culture. The U.S government spends more money on its military than any other country in the world. Some countries believe that the U.S is the modern day Roman Empire. Think about the amount of war games that have been released for the X box compared to other consoles like the PS2 or Gamecube. Think about the amount of war games that have been released for the PC since September 11th. It is obvious that some people in the videogame industry are attempting to make war look cool or fun to the teenagers that are playing these games. Some people in the news media have written articles’ saying the military is working with people in the videogame industry in an attempt to persuade young males to join the military. I played quite a few in the past despite the fact that I don't like them. Of course the reason why I don't like them is because most war games are an unrealistic portrayal of what war is really like. The war games that are more realistic still do not include the nasty, disgusting, emotional things that a soldier would experience on the battlefield. War is not fun and it is not cool. If you are a citizen of The United States Of America or a country that requires all of its healthy males to enroll in its military before a certain age then you will be probably be able to ask a family member or a friend what war is really like. If they had the unfortunate experience of entering into a combat zone they will be able to describe some of the horrible things that you may have seen in a realistic movie. One important thing that they will be able to describe to you is the emotional training the soldiers go through before they go to war. They will describe how they are trained to turn their emotions on and off when they are on the battlefield. The soldiers that are not able to be in complete control of their emotions usually end up suffering from posttraumatic stress syndrome or worse. Those of you that enjoy playing war games and killing countless numbers of people in the game may be unaware of what it takes to be a good soldier. The games that you play don't include things like men crying on the battlefield because they don't want to take the life of another human being. You are not able to experience the intense emotions that a soldier may feel when he or she is in a kill or be killed situation. You don't have to deal with the consequences that a soldier would have to live with if they make a mistake because of their emotions. (Killing civilians, friendly fire, ect.) Some of the things that I just mentioned could be implemented into videogames over a period of time. It would require a lot of creativity and new ideas, but it could be done. War games that are more realistic may not be fun to some people, but war is not supposed to be fun. The games should be used as a learning tool. I think it would also be nice to see more realistic consequences in fantasy-based war games or any kind of game that includes some kind of battle or combat against computer characters or other players. I would like to see games that incorporate some of the things in Project Entropia or some of the entertainment center cash exchange ideas that I wrote about in my first post, Virtual Reality Assistance And Pleasure. It would actually force players to take care of their avatar and bond with it. Your actions would have real consequences. Losing money may not be as painful as losing a friend during a war, but it is one of the best ways to make players feel pain when they make mistakes in a game. VILLIANS Does evil really exist or is it just a chemical illusion? If you are in a situation where you have an enemy, is it easier for you to think that you are good person and your enemy is evil, or are you one of the few people on this planet that is aware of the fact that life is not black and white and it is many different shades of gray? Even if you do believe in the concept of good and evil because you are religious, you have to admit that holy books like the bible say that no one is without sin. You may have also heard the phrase; the road to hell is paved with good intentions. When is taking the life of another human being murder and when is it justifiable homicide? Unfortunately most videogames are black and white. You either get to play the role of a good guy or a bad guy. The bad guys are usually your typical comic book villains. (Ugly face, glowing eyes, black clothing, a desire to rule the world or destroy it) It is the same story over and over again. If someone wants to get a realistic portrayal of villain they will have to read a book or watch a good movie or television show. Occasionally writers are able to write a great script for a movie or television show that can take you into the mind and world of a so-called villain. Sometimes good scripts give you the opportunity to experience the emotions of two enemies. This allows you to experience things from both sides. Therefore the fictional characters do not always appear to be good or bad. They are just two flawed human beings. Think about movies and television shows like Crash, The Cell, Seven, The Sopranos, and Oz. All of the movies and shows that I just mentioned contain realistic portrayals of villains. Some of the villains are crueler than others and some of them are just ignorant. There is one thing that all of these shows and movies have in common. The scripts and story lines are phenomenal. When you are watching one of these shows or movies your able to experience emotions that you could never experience from playing a serious or violent videogame. You are able to get into the mind of the characters and you can understand why they are doing the things that they do. You are able to experience fear or sympathy for some of the characters regardless of whether they are good or bad. PLEASURE I spent a lot of time writing about emotional pain during this post. I am going to end my post by writing about pleasure. As I said before, I believe that the main form of pleasure that the videogame industry offers to people is childish fun. They are many other forms of pleasure that is being left out for some reason. (Sexual pleasure, the self confidence that a person can feel form learning and achieving new things in a game or a virtual world, and the pleasure of competing with other people for cash) You can read more about this in my first post Virtual Reality Assistance And Pleasure.

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Original post by vr_man
I am a twenty-four year old male that does not enjoy playing most videogames because I believe that they are stupid and childish.


The problem for you might begin and end right there. I'd have to ask you "what is a game?" and "what elements, excluded or included, automatically make a game childish?"

Are board games like Go and Chess stupid and childish to you? Card games like Poker or Blackjack? What about Civilization, Risk or Diplomacy? What factor causes your bias to shift from being stupid and childish to being entertainment suitable to adults? If money and wagering is involved, does the videogame become sophistocated enough for adults-- if so, then the CPL and other rising game tournaments make Quake 4 and Warcraft "games for adults."

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In the present time the only thing that I feel when I play a game is boredom or excitement when I am competing against someone in a game that has a 2-player mode. The last time that I felt something like fear, happiness or, excitement when I was playing a game with a story line was back in the mid 90's.


What kinds of games do you play? I cut my teeth on flight simulators, and had to transition away as I sought more personal and emotional context. If you're still trying to find the same experiences in the same genre, you may need to switch genres and seek new experiences.

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The same thing applies to most adults. Some of these adults are people that used to play videogames when they were younger but they stopped, as they got older. It does not have to be this way.


I think this is a mistakenly broad generalization. What about those 50 year olds out there grinding away in World of Warcraft or Asheron's Call? Or all those playing Shockwave or MSN games online.

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I am not referring to the games that are rated M. Those games are childish also. Some of them just contain a lot of animated violence.


OOC, would you consider Scarface or The Terminator or Aliens movies childish?

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With each year that passes the number of adults that are playing videogames continues to increase.


Considering the angle of your post, does it follow that the audience would continue to increase if they considered the games stupid and childish?

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There is a very small percentage of adults over the age of 30 that play videogames on a regular basis.


Are you factoring in the number of moms and grandmoms who play Bejeweled clones or The Sims? I'm not sure their percentage is all that small-- certainly not the majority, but not very small.

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I believe that sales in the videogame industry could quickly triple or quadruple if a company or companies could find a way to increase the percentage of adults over the age of 30 that play videogames.


Do these people want to work for their entertainment? Games are not movies. They require making choices, they require active participation. I'm not so certain that someone who isn't an ardent videogame fan is going to want to choose a 40 hour experience that requires lots of decisions and thought over a 2 hour experience that they can passively absorb with little effort.

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I am one of the few people that enjoyed playing FMV games in the 90's despite the fact that most of the game play was horrible.


God rest ye soul, man. [evil]

[smile]

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Adults that do not enjoy playing videogames do not experience any emotions other than boredom when they are looking at images that are not photo realistic.


These people should be watching paintings or movies, then, because they're not participating for the choices, they're participating for the art.

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How many adults do you think watch cartoons on a regular basis? You could be thinking that they are millions of adults that are interested in things like cartoons, comic books, and videogames. Millions of adults around the world are interested in these things, but it only represents a small percentage of the adult population.


There are tens of millions of people around the world who enjoy genealogy or stock trading. Yet it does not automatically follow that all games should become genealogy applications or stock trading simulations. It is a mistake to assume that just because videogame players are a minority the majority is a vast, untapped market. Games as a form of entertainment may never appeal to that majority, no matter how mutilated to look like movies you make them.

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With today's technology (HD-DVD's, Blueray discs) it is possible to design FMV games that will give the players much more control and options in the games than what they had in the past.


But why did the FMV industry crash and burn in the first place? The main reason: These games were little more than slideshows with few choices, and what choices they did offer were ridiculously expensive to realize.

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How many times have you cried when you were watching a sad part of a dramatic movie or television show? How many times did you feel sorry for a fictional character in a movie or television show that was suffering from physical or emotional pain? If you are capable of caring about someone other than yourself then there is a good chance that you formed an emotional attachment with a fictional character in a least one movie or television show. Now I want you to try to think about a fictional character in a videogame that you formed an emotional attachment with.


If by emotional attachment you mean that I cared about the fate of the characters, then:
Fallout, the people of Shady Sands and Harold.
Terranova: Strike Force Centauri, my squaddies.
Tron 2.0, Mercury (a little, anyway)
Morrowind, Caius
etc.

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If an important character in a game is killed you can always press the reset button, or you can continue the game from a place where you saved earlier.


That you can reset doesn't prevent you form caring about the character, it prevents you from accepting immutable fate. That's not the same thing.

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With technology like blueray discs and HD-DVD's it will be possible to give a gamer hundreds of hours of high quality game play. The players will also be able to interact with the fictional characters. This could create a stronger emotional bond with the fictional characters in a game.


No, you are comparing apples and oranges. You never walk behind the set or inquiring indelicately into the past of the lead role in a movie or television drama.

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It is all about psychology and human biology.


I have no argument with introducing more psychology into game design, but I think since you have such a dreadfully poor opinion of interactivity you're doomed to ride the coat tails of the film industry. Games are a medium with strictures that have no parallel in books, TV shows or film. The FMV debacle of the 90s showed us clearly that trying to treat them the same will make both hardcore AND casual gamers unhappy.

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It is obvious that some people in the videogame industry are attempting to make war look cool or fun to the teenagers that are playing these games. Some people in the news media have written articles’ saying the military is working with people in the videogame industry in an attempt to persuade young males to join the military.


It sounds as if you're saying there is something sinister going on here. The videogame industry also makes basketball and the middle ages look cool or fun to teenagers. The NBA and NASA may be involved, but so what?

You'll have to evaluate the history of games themselves in order to come up with a meaningful observation here. Games include oppositional conflict as primary subject matter because of the fundamental nature of challenge, not some deep, dark conspiracy.


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The war games that are more realistic still do not include the nasty, disgusting, emotional things that a soldier would experience on the battlefield. War is not fun and it is not cool.


And this is the crux of where your screed falls drastically short: Games are fun. If they're not fun, then you're creating something else.

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If you are a citizen of The United States Of America or a country that requires all of its healthy males to enroll in its military before a certain age then you will be probably be able to ask a family member or a friend what war is really like. If they had the unfortunate experience of entering into a combat zone they will be able to describe some of the horrible things that you may have seen in a realistic movie. One important thing that they will be able to describe to you is the emotional training the soldiers go through before they go to war. They will describe how they are trained to turn their emotions on and off when they are on the battlefield. The soldiers that are not able to be in complete control of their emotions usually end up suffering from posttraumatic stress syndrome or worse.


Ironic, then, isn't it? It would stand to reason that a war game like Medal of Honor, which fails to convey emotion, is closer to reality than some emotionally overwrought FMV wargame experience featuring exploded guts and soldiers crying. So what's the problem?

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Those of you that enjoy playing war games and killing countless numbers of people in the game may be unaware of what it takes to be a good soldier.


Those of us who enjoy buying up Park Place and presummably putting the screws to all those poor folks who have to pay when they land on it are also unaware of what it takes to be a good real estate agent. So what? The semblance is not the fact!

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Some of the things that I just mentioned could be implemented into videogames over a period of time. It would require a lot of creativity and new ideas, but it could be done.


You're handwaving.

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The games should be used as a learning tool.


Why?

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Losing money may not be as painful as losing a friend during a war, but it is one of the best ways to make players feel pain when they make mistakes in a game.


Why is it that movie watchers do not see loss as punishment, but game players do? If I take your measure of understanding of interactivity by what you've written in this post, then that's the heart of what you don't understand.

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Think about movies and television shows like Crash, The Cell, Seven, The Sopranos, and Oz. All of the movies and shows that I just mentioned contain realistic portrayals of villains. Some of the villains are crueler than others and some of them are just ignorant. There is one thing that all of these shows and movies have in common. The scripts and story lines are phenomenal. When you are watching one of these shows or movies your able to experience emotions that you could never experience from playing a serious or violent videogame. You are able to get into the mind of the characters and you can understand why they are doing the things that they do. You are able to experience fear or sympathy for some of the characters regardless of whether they are good or bad.


In considering games as childish and stupid, you may have missed the many times this level of subtety was played out. Fallout is an example, as is System Shock II. I'm sure others could name more.

You clearly have an interest in bringing new material and experiences to games. However, I'd strongly suggest you post a specific solution to an aspect of the problem rather than a multipage diatribe indicative of acute logorrhea: What, for instance, is a specific solution to the problem of getting the player to experience tragedy without feeling punished? How can you avoid objectification in a medium where points and measurable resources are central mechanisms? That sort of thing.

Otherwise, man, you're going to give us longwinded posters a bad name! [rolleyes]

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Da Vinci and Picasso didn't paint with photo-realism, Chess and Monopoly are still fun (and played by adults), and Hemingway and T.S. Eliot use technology that's as young as Gutenberg. Obviously there are some large points about art, emotions, and gaming that you are missing. Play Civilization games and tell me how they can be improved by photorealistic graphics.

If you want to watch a movie, watch a movie. If you're waiting for the Star Trek holodeck (or as far as that goes, the freaking Matrix), don't hold your breath.

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Hi, man!

I'd like to recommend you playing Mafia game (http://www.mafia-game.com).

Real drama about real people.
I'll never forget that rainy village near the Canadian border, or the tragedy of Frank who thought he's able to quit the family, or the game's ending scene.. The game feels just like it's a good movie.

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I am confused as to how you can 'enjoy' the FMV games yet you admit that the gameplay was horrible. I'm guessing you merely enjoyed it for the movie aspects, in which case I have to ask; why are you playing games and not watching movies?

Games are not movies. They shouldn't even try to be movies, because they'll never be as good at being movies as movies are, and will end up being crappy games.

Sound and visuals are important to immersion, although setting the bar at 'photorealistic' is rather too high. The visuals in games like Thief, although basic, were still good enough to immerse the player, and with the lights turned off and surround sound enabled, Thief was an incredibly tense game.

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It is obvious that some people in the videogame industry are attempting to make war look cool or fun to the teenagers that are playing these games. Some people in the news media have written articles’ saying the military is working with people in the videogame industry in an attempt to persuade young males to join the military.


With the possible exception of America's Army, no. Furthermore, devs are limited in how realistic they can make war look by the ratings boards, and the publishers - and the whining of the very same people who complain that games train people to be murderers. A fully realistic game demonstrating the full horror of war would get an AO rating which would damage sales (making it undesirable for the publisher) and would have the Jack Thompson brigade in an uproar. Plus, if it wasn't fun, no-one would want to play it.

Ultimately, a game has to be fun. If it achieves that goal by invoking strong emotional reactions then that's cool. If it's just plain mindless fun, that's cool too. However, invoking emotions at the expense of fun is guaranteed disaster.

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The problem for you might begin and end right there. I'd have to ask you "what is a game?" and "what elements, excluded or included, automatically make a game childish?"

Are board games like Go and Chess stupid and childish to you? Card games like Poker or Blackjack? What about Civilization, Risk or Diplomacy? What factor causes your bias to shift from being stupid and childish to being entertainment suitable to adults? If money and wagering is involved, does the videogame become sophistocated enough for adults-- if so, then the CPL and other rising game tournaments make Quake 4 and Warcraft "games for adults."

OOC, would you consider Scarface or The Terminator or Aliens movies childish?


What makes a game childish? Not all videogames are childish but most of them are. Not all childish videogames are bad videogames. They just don't appeal to the majority of adults. The majority of adults are busy doing other things like playing the mating game. (Something that I wrote in my first post) You can't deny the fact that the majority of games are made for children and teenagers. If you asked the average adult they would probably tell you that videogames are high-tech toys for kids. I believe that a childish game is something like colorful cute cuddly characters like Pokemon and even games like Mario and Zelda.

Perhaps childish was the wrong word to describe what I think about most M rated games. I should have used the word immature. Think about a game like GTA. It is an unrealistic portrayal of gang warfare. The fact that you can run around killing people without realistic consequences is childish to me. I don't think most teenagers would be able to play a realistic version of GTA. It would require them to think too much; therefore it would not be fun to most GTA fans.

Most unrealistic fantasy based entertainment is childish to me. Perhaps I grew up to soon. I can remember feeling this way when I was twelve years old. I believe that art should always imitate reality even if some fantasy is incorporated into the art. The fantasy should always be a theoretical possibility in reality. Most of the fantasy-based entertainment (movies, cartoons, comic books, videogames) that is available was created by writers that made their childhood fantasies a reality.

As for your questions about the board games and movies, no I don't believe they are childish.

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What kinds of games do you play? I cut my teeth on flight simulators, and had to transition away as I sought more personal and emotional context. If you're still trying to find the same experiences in the same genre, you may need to switch genres and seek new experiences.


I enjoy playing some racing games or flying games at arcades. I have to feel like I am actually in the vehicle to enjoy the game. The only kinds of games that I play at home on a regular basis are puzzle games. (Tetris, puzzle fighter, columns, doctor Mario) I enjoy these simple games because I feel like I am in complete control of the game when I am playing it. The movements are simple. Up down left right. When I am playing games that are more complex (fighting games, sports games) sometimes I feel like I am a slave to the way the programmers designed the game. It doesn't take long for me to find flaws in the game or something about it that I don't like. If I am not playing a game with amazing graphics or photo-realistic images, then I want to feel like I am in complete control of the images on my screen. When I was younger I enjoyed playing games that stimulated the learning centers of my brain. I enjoyed solving puzzles in games like Myst. I am not a genius but all of the puzzle-solving, clue finding games that I played during the last five years were too easy for me or I got bored while playing them.

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There are tens of millions of people around the world who enjoy genealogy or stock trading. Yet it does not automatically follow that all games should become genealogy applications or stock trading simulations. It is a mistake to assume that just because videogame players are a minority the majority is a vast, untapped market. Games as a form of entertainment may never appeal to that majority, no matter how mutilated to look like movies you make them.

But why did the FMV industry crash and burn in the first place? The main reason: These games were little more than slideshows with few choices, and what choices they did offer were ridiculously expensive to realize.

I have no argument with introducing more psychology into game design, but I think since you have such a dreadfully poor opinion of interactivity you're doomed to ride the coat tails of the film industry. Games are a medium with strictures that have no parallel in books, TV shows or film. The FMV debacle of the 90s showed us clearly that trying to treat them the same will make both hardcore AND casual gamers unhappy.



In my first post I said that the majority of people in the videogame industry believe that videogames should be nothing more than a toy for children and some adults to use when they are bored. I believe that it can and should be so much more.

The ideas that I have in my head are so different from what the majority of people that play or make videogames think about, therefore I am not surprised that you and the majority of people on this site think my ideas are wrong, stupid, or crazy. When the majority of people on this site think about videogames they probably think about what I wrote in the paragraph above this one. When I think about videogames I think about virtual reality and a new way of life. It may all sound crazy to you, but I am who I am.

Text is an ineffective way of transferring information. The use of sound and video would be a better way to try to convince you and other people that my ideas will work. I am using these forums and other forums on the internet to hopefully influence one out of every thousand people that reads my posts. If one person implements one of my ideas into something that they are working on then I have accomplished my goal.

I do not expect you or anyone else to believe that FMV games can be a successful business venture. When someone believes that something is impossible or a bad idea, they will use their brain to try and think about all of the reasons why the idea will not work. When someone believes that something is possible or a good idea they will use their brain to try to think about all of the reason why the idea could work. I have no effective way of transferring the ideas that I have in my brain to your brain without actually creating the games myself. I could write 100 posts trying to convince you that my ideas will work, but it would be a waste of my time. When you think about FMV games you can't help but think about the games that were made between 1993 and 1995. When I think about FMV games I am thinking about things that have never been done before.

The emotional FMV games thing is just one of the many things that I would like to experience. The virtual reality assistance and pleasure thing that I have in my head is all that I think about. It is what I am. I may never accomplish any of my goals but I am going to die trying. If I live long enough you will see some of my products on the market. That is the only way that I can prove you wrong.


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Ultimately, a game has to be fun. If it achieves that goal by invoking strong emotional reactions then that's cool. If it's just plain mindless fun, that's cool too. However, invoking emotions at the expense of fun is guaranteed disaster.


What is your definition of fun? Everyone has their own beliefs about what is fun and what is not. A game that is fun to me may be boring or stupid to you. I believe that a larger variety of games should be available to the public so that everyone can play games that they think are fun.

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Original post by vr_man
What is your definition of fun? Everyone has their own beliefs about what is fun and what is not. A game that is fun to me may be boring or stupid to you. I believe that a larger variety of games should be available to the public so that everyone can play games that they think are fun.


Oh I am aware of that, and agree to some extent. However, games development is a business and it ultimately has to be profitable. Games seen as unmarketetable or undesirable rarely get made.

There are many games which strong evoke emotional reactions. There are many games which focus on strategy. There are even games with engaging stories that manage to create strong emotional attachments to characters, maybe you just haven't played them. It's true that contemporary, 'real life' settings are underrepresented in an industry dominated by fantasy and sci-fi settings, but the setting actually has relatively little bearing on the emotional content of the game. It sounds like you're really just blaming the game industry for your inability to suspend disbelief and allow yourself to be immersed into a fictional universe.

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<<Text is an ineffective way of transferring information.>>

I know I'm taking your comment out of context but...

In my opinion, one of the problems with current gaming is the dependance on graphics. While some games produce incredible graphics that are a joy to watch, I think they fail to produce content.

My project (on severe hold at the moment) is to produce a game that is completly textbased, where the focus is on producing content, not appearence. The reason I like this approach comes from playing a text based mud, Gemstone IV. While I think the game could definitely be more extensive, I feel more connection to a text based game that conveys all emotions and actions possible as opposed to graphic based games that show a character walking around with minimum changes (or even visibility) to their expression or actions. I've even heard people in the game fourms (adults) talk about being so startled by things that happened in the game they nearly threw their keyboard across the room.

But then maybe I don't have any clue what I'm talking about, thats what a research project is good for finding out...

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Text is an inefficient way to transfer a large amount of information. My post is very long. A person could write a whole book about an idea that they have for a game. That same information could be transfered in a 10 min video.

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I must admit I've only skimmed through your large post, so I'm not sure I can really comment on all of that right now [smile].

However, I am interested in exactly how you are going to make FMV games appeal to the gamers (or the non-gamers) of today. From what I remember about the early CD-ROM era of FMV games, they almost universally sucked from a gameplay perspective. Even the very best ones that I played I would consider merely average at best.

The problem as I see it is that it is very hard to combine film with interactivity. The best you can do is something similar to Dragon's Lair, and that was a trick that only worked once with the market. With on-the-fly computer-generated graphics such as with a 3D engine, you can modify the content to fit the player's actions, but with film, you will have to have bursts of non-interactive material dispersed with moments where the player makes a decision. This can work to a limited degree; SpyCraft: The Great Game was a moderately entertaining FMV game; but I think that graphics engine based graphics can do it better.

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Uh oh, you hit one of my sore spots. Be prepared for fanboy ranting...



"I believe that a childish game is something like colorful cute cuddly characters like Pokemon and even games like Mario and Zelda."

You know, because every game should feature bloody horrors and dark twisted anti-heroes. It's the American way!

How dare game designers create a character like Link that can appeal to all ages! Eidos, Naughty Dog, and Sega has it right : take your family friendly character, darken his skin, give him a gun or ultra-violent finishers, make his voice gruff, and possibly add some facial hair, BLAMMO! Adults will love it!

Chess would still be chess if the pieces were purple and blue. It would be the same damn game if the pieces were butterflies. The point is, this is an industry of entertainment. Some people have fun by wandering dark corridors with a shotgun. Some people have fun by exploring a cartoonlike world. This is not childish, this is entertainment.

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Original post by vr_man
Text is an inefficient way to transfer a large amount of information. My post is very long. A person could write a whole book about an idea that they have for a game. That same information could be transfered in a 10 min video.


Just because you're unfamiliar with the term "brevity" and can't express your ideas well in writing does not mean writing itself is inefficient.

I'd like to see a well-written book that could be translated with no information loss into a 10 minute video.

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2. An X- rated point and click FMV game. The game could begin with you picking one of three bodies that you can use in the game. You would have the choice of picking a white male, a black male, or an Asian male. The idea would be to give people the choice of choosing a body that represents who they are. After you have picked your body you will walk around inside your apartment and interact with objects. You could play games on your computer, listen to music, read a book, or you could insert a demo version of the language software into your computer and spend some time learning a new language. You could also watch one of the many X- rated movies that you have on the hard drive of your computer. If you felt like leaving your apartment you could walk over to your friends apartment and play a game of chess, or you could go to a massage parlor and get a massage from a beautiful Japanese woman. It would give you a chance to practice the Japanese that you were learning from the language software in your apartment earlier. You could also decide to go to your local bar and get a woman to come home with you. Perhaps the woman might not speak English very well and you could increase your odds of bringing her home if you are able to communicate with her in her native language. The idea of the game would be to give people multiple things that they can do within the game.


This is one of his "great ideas." So you want the industry to advance until you can play "games" like this?* Dude, get a life.

*and not only that, the industry is "stupid and childish" because it isn't moving in this direction. WTF?

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Please try and keep this thread civil people.

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Original post by vr_man
Text is an inefficient way to transfer a large amount of information. My post is very long. A person could write a whole book about an idea that they have for a game. That same information could be transfered in a 10 min video.


Text is a very inefficient way of transfering visual information. However, a key part of many storylines is non-visual information, such as a character's thoughts and feelings, which are harder to fully capture on film. Good actors who are capable of believably portraying their feelings help, but there is only so much they can do.

With regards to game development though, you're right; a playable prototype tells you far more about a game than a bunch of words on paper or screen.

Still, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with FMV. FMV games are always going to be the worst of both the game and movie worlds, rendering them undesirable to the vast majority of fans of either. That's why they failed the first time around, and that's why they will almost certainly fail again. I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) that the real problem has nothing to do with the emotional content in games, but simply that you (and quite possibly many other people) have trouble relating to the fantastic/sci-fi settings that dominate the games industry, and would prefer something more contemporary and grounded in reality.

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Original post by JBourrie
Chess would still be chess if the pieces were purple and blue. It would be the same damn game if the pieces were butterflies.


Hm. Would it?

It may sound immature (I'm sure it does), but when I play games I consider "boring" (chess is not much fun to me), I tend to create personas for inanimate objects.

Let's assume we're playing a chess video game. If, every time a piece is captured, I'm forced (lack of control is important here, because, for me, watching videos increases boredom exponentially if it's something I've seen before -- and sometimes even if I haven't seen it before) to watch a gory video of a WH40k:DoW-styled video of a hill-rush and said piece being mauled and ripped to shreds, the coolness will eventually wear off. When it does, I'll either turn off the game and do something less boring, or give the characters 'pseudo'-identities ('pseudo' because, due to a rather short memory/attention-span, I'll probably forget their names in a few turns anyway). After that, I'll start giving the characters personalities, and do my best to keep the ones I like alive.

When identities like this are created by the game designers and the players feel genuinely attached, I'd say that the game reaches a new level of maturity.

I hate to say this here, but I will. Even though, for a couple of hours it was rather entertaining, this was my number 1 qualm with DOOM³; the characters are hardly developed, and I really didn't care about anyone because, 90% of the time, said character was about to be eaten or shot. Why should I care, if every character in the game (from what I played) is just going to meet a gruesome omglolwtfwasthatawesomekthxbai ending?

I should point out here that I found the game to be immature, and to take itself far too seriously to be entertaining. But maybe there's something I missed in the last half/quarter/third of the game that I didn't play.

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Original post by vr_man
What is your definition of fun? Everyone has their own beliefs about what is fun and what is not. A game that is fun to me may be boring or stupid to you. I believe that a larger variety of games should be available to the public so that everyone can play games that they think are fun.


A large variety of games, made available to the public so that everyone can play games that they think are fun.

I think you've forgotten about "the internet". It's a rather large repository for all types of games, quite a lot of them free or cheap. Yahoo! Games, in fact, tries to cater to all-types of gamers from all age-ranges, and many of the games seem quite good (I prefer faster-paced multiplayer games, and don't visit Yahoo! Games much).

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Original post by vr_man
I am a twenty-four year old male that does not enjoy playing most videogames because I believe that they are stupid and childish.

You
should
play
more
games.

I've got to say, I wouldn't consider these games childish -- but I wouldn't stop, say, my 8 year old nephew from playing them. Toys 'R' Us might, but if I've got it and he wants to play it, I'm going to take turns with him. If he has a question about something, I'm there to answer it, and if I can't, Google has a Moderate search filter. ([smile]).

Also, I'm curious about your opinion on games that may have mature content, but are presented in a lighter atmosphere(see: Warcraft 3, Prince of Persia: TSoT, or the Zelda games*). Do you consider these games "immature", as well?

And on what you said about GTA games -- do you really want a realistic gang war? Go play Mafia -- that's what it's all about, right? (I never got around to playing it, was too busy playing GTA). I don't. I think, in real life, gang wars are rather a ludicrous concept. GTA games make light of that (in a rather sordid way, albeit), and, most importantly, make them fun to play. I like playing GTA:VC. It's fun to be able to run around, blow things up, get chased by the police, shoot some of them, get caught by the police, save, and still be able to come back later to an equally entertaining experience. The entertainment in GTA games come from the sheer simplicity on the surface (you're able to pick up and play anytime, accomplishing things but never advancing the story), combined flawlessly with the depth of the stories (which is why my brother fell in love with GTA 3 and VC). If you want, you can do nothing and still get something done. It's a genius gameplay mechanic.

* Zelda games all follow a theme of "becoming a man by doing something great", which is arguably a difficult concept to explain to children who don't already understand it.

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Hmmm....interesting thread.

When I first read the title and part of the original post, one type of game came to mind....Japanese dating sims. Yes, many of them are X-rated, but not all. There are still a handful that come out each year that have very strong stories with complex emotions. There have been quite a few in the past few years that have garnered quite some cult followings just from story and emotional depth. If you're really into FMV games, this may be an avenue for you to explore, warrant that learning japanese may be required. However, that is the only gaming market in the world that I can think of right now that still churns out enough games of that style in one month to warrant the need to an actual magazine dedicated to it. (Note again: Yes, most of them are X-rated flakes)

So, I think instead of sitting around and complaining about what the industry should be doing, why not go out and see what other parts of the industry are doing. Gaming isn't limited to the US. Other markets have other demographics that may very well match yours much better than the current one you're in.

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It's not like it'd be all that difficult to make an X-rated FMV game.

Step 1: Write a script with branching dialogue. E.G., Girl asks you if you cry at movies. Depending on response, she

A. sleeps with you -- porno scene
B. laughs at you
C. recommends you to her japanese nympho friend

etc. etc. Include whatever you want in your FMV game in your script.

2. So, once your script is written, find some "actors." Ie, get yourself a stable of ho's and a black stud, a white stud, and an asian stud.

3. Then, film every possible branch of your script, with each of the three studs. If you like, you can film for IMAX.

4. Find a programmer who will work on an X-rated FMV game. If he can program a chess minigame and japanese language tutorial software, that's a plus. Have him program the game--presenting the clips depending on the choices the player makes.

5. Add bom-chika-bom-chika music, maybe put in a pretty GUI.

6. Ship game. Make millions. Await legions of adoring masses, hailing you as the savior of the industry.

You said you're pretty well off, so why not just do it? Since pRon is ~50% of internet business anyway, it's not like you don't have a market. Good Luck.

Oh yeah, and if the protagonist gets rejected too many times, you can make him go back to his apartment and sob into his pillow "All adults care about in life is the mating game!"

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Not another interactive movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Stick me in a catacomb with only Superman 64, Catwoman and Megaman battle chip challange, just don't release another interactive movie!!!!!!!!


Interactive movies are the worst type of programs (not games, programs). Yes, worse then movies. Yes, worse then spyware. No, they are not worse then the program in my school's computher lab that allows the theacer to take controll of the student's computhers. There are some limits.


Interactive movies are not fan. That's why no one makes them anymore.

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"When I think about videogames I think about virtual reality and a new way of life. It may all sound crazy to you, but I am who I am."

That's just stupid, your opinion isn't the same as everyone elses, that's why it's YOUR opinion.

Also, like a few posters said, if you want the realism or something, either watch a movie of it, or go experience it yourself. A war GAME is a GAME because it wants the player to get immersed in it, without scaring them off from the topic, while also pushing historical content and letting them have fun. If you want a mature adult to experience war as it really is, the only "fun" way to do it would be to give them a gun, and send them into some war-torn country.

We'll see what realism is then, won't we, when we ship you off to iraq to die...

I don't know about anyone else, but I would much rather experience war (fun war) through a game such as Call of Duty 2 (which is pretty realistic, yet very fun, and sometimes difficult) than going to iraq with say, a 25% of ending my life.

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I remember you recently said this:

Quote:
If you asked the average adult they would probably tell you that videogames are high-tech toys for kids. I believe that a childish game is something like colorful cute cuddly characters like Pokemon and even games like Mario and Zelda.


But previously you also said this:

Quote:
I believe that it could be so much bigger if some of the games were made for mature teenagers and adults. I am not referring to the games that are rated M. Those games are childish also. Some of them just contain a lot of animated violence.


These ideas seem to conflict. On one hand I agree that violence for the sake of violence is childish, but then you also say that superficial qualities like the appearance of characters determines what age group will play the game. I start to sense insecurity when people won't play a game simply because it contains cute characters, regardless of the gameplay.

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I don't know about anyone else, but I would much rather experience war (fun war) through a game such as Call of Duty 2 (which is pretty realistic, yet very fun, and sometimes difficult) than going to iraq with say, a 25% of ending my life.


I think war games should be scary. Experiencing fear can be fun to some people. (Bungee jumping, skydiving, ect.)

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Original post by vr_man
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I don't know about anyone else, but I would much rather experience war (fun war) through a game such as Call of Duty 2 (which is pretty realistic, yet very fun, and sometimes difficult) than going to iraq with say, a 25% of ending my life.


I think war games should be scary. Experiencing fear can be fun to some people. (Bungee jumping, skydiving, ect.)



I hate to tell you but those people that think bungee jumping, skydiving etc are fun probably are out doing said things and would probably never ever want to do it in a video game, some things just arent as fun in video games... you cant feel the wind rushing by your face when your sitting in front of a monitor. There is also a huge difference between a relativly safe danger rush (such as sky divinng with a parachutte) and going to war... war isnt fun... very few people would want to experience war just for the fun of it and I think that is the main point... very few, producers have to market to what would be in general fun. Sure they could make Shizer Whips and Chains super Bondage 5XxX but if its something that will only appeal to all of 10 people then the money isnt there

Also if you think theres no emotional attachment in games you need to play some RPGs ....

Final Fantasy 7 - Areis.... all I have to say

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I start to sense insecurity when people won't play a game simply because it contains cute characters, regardless of the gameplay.


I enjoyed playing games like Mario and Zelda in the past, but I still believe they are childish. How much adults do you think are playing Pokemon games on a regular basis? The appearances of characters in a game can determine which sex and age group will be interested in a game even before they play it. Most females like bright colors like pink or red. Most males like colors like black or dark bleu. Most young boys don't really care how a character in a game looks as long as they are having fun when they are playing the game. As males get older they will begin to purchase things that represents who and what they are. For example the average teenaged male or adult will be much more interested in a dark evil looking character like Spawn than a character from Pokemon. I don't know if you are a fan of Dragon Ball Z, but if you are I can give you another example. Think about the fat version of Majin Buu. Now think about Kid Buu or Cooler, or Vegeta. I can bet you that the majority of the male populations that are fans of the show do not like the fat version of Majin Buu. He looks and sounds like a cute cuddly character that a little boy or girl would want to play with.

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