When does an algorithm turn alive?

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87 comments, last by Timkin 18 years, 2 months ago
I'm not sure I'm following you on the whole 'dolphins are more alive than us' part. I'm not entirely certain of all that the field of Artificial Life has to offer, but I know that one of the prime conditions for scientists to describe an object as 'alive' is the ability to reproduce. This is evident in the works of (prof\dr?) J. von Neumann, Dr Thomas Ray, and others, including von Neumanns Cellular Automata (in his case a theoretical robot that existed in an infinitely deep canal filled with all the parts required to make copies of itself) or Rays 'Tierra', a world inside a computer, with 'lifeforms' which each had their own DNA, and responded to their surroundings in the same way as bacterium and amoebae do.

hehe... sorry, got a little carried away there

anyway, it definitely reads better than your last draft, and I think you've got most of the points down pat, now

On a personal note, I reckon that the ghost (or soul, or whatever) is an illusion that we created to explain why we are more 'intelligent' than any other known animal at this time( said in case we make first contact with aliens tomorrow ;)
so it can be thought of as a reflection of our belief that we are, in some way, different to every other living creature on this planet.

Also, if a computer\robot can think like a human, act like a human, and just be plain indistinguishable from a human, then I think I would willingly greet them as equals.

or even superiors, if the T-800 watching over my shoulder has anything to say about it ...
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Geez, so that's what happens when I write a reply at 0100 hrs...

I like the part about billions of neurones working together, that's cool, in a freaky kinda way...

I take it that meanss that I should stop referring to myself as 'I' and start using 'We' instead?
Quote:Original post by NQ
That would mean that 'life' is just what we call this thing that occurs when a bunch of neural cells are linked together. By this definition there's no other difference between insects and humans, aside from the number of interlinked brain cells.

Nope.
As far as i know, the difference does not come from the number of interlinked brain cells - that would be something like "the more brain the better" - but that does not always suite.
It actually depends on HOW INTENSIVE the information-exchange between those inter-linked brain cells is.
I guess there was a link about this topic on the wikipedia.org-human brain page.
Just take a look at it :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain

The idea of billions of little cells melting temporarly together, creating one huge, gigantic mind with many times the capability of a human's mind was also discussed by Frank Schätzing in 2004 within his scifi "Der Schwarm". Although he used a quite dramatic scenario, it includes some interesting thoughts. One of his theories includes the possibility of those "goo"s being able to create a living, learning and thinking individual all by themselves based on information-exchange going on during DNA-Modifing. He was the first person i know which stated that thinking might not nessessarily be based on neurons / brains.
However, i don't know if it was released in english.

But i like your article. I've watched the entire Ghost In The Shell stuff by myself, therefor i'm quite familiar with some of those theories.
I guess it's a nice review of them and you also inserted some additions - other thoughts. Nice one.
Quote:Original post by aphydx
the central creative core of your mind cannot comprehend something as complex as itself.
Prove it.

"When does an algorithm turn alive"

Let me just say that the title itself is poorly worded and the arguments within are not entirely well stated. Others have pointed out things with regard to that statement so I won't repeat them.

Perhaps:

"When does an algorithm live?"

or

"When is an algorithm alive?"

or even:

"When does an algorithm become alive?"

Because "turn alive" just sounds silly. My apologies if you feel offended, I'm really just trying to make a suggestion that might help set a more serious tone.
_______________________"You're using a screwdriver to nail some glue to a ming vase. " -ToohrVyk
Quote:Original post by Sneftel
Quote:Original post by aphydx
the central creative core of your mind cannot comprehend something as complex as itself.
Prove it.

Good one [smile]
My algorithm just turned alive... help... me.... (non-sensical scribbles)
or a voice recording:

*frantic, breathy whispers*
"oh my god... it's... not human... in the ventilation shafts... I don't think it sees me yet... .... ..... "
the transmition is ended by a blood-curdling scream.
_______________________"You're using a screwdriver to nail some glue to a ming vase. " -ToohrVyk
I only skimmed over your actual article, as I'm reading this from work, so ignore me if I draw the same conclusions as you have. You would benefit by including an abstract introduction/conclusion clearly stating your answer to the question raised.

Quote:When does an algorithm turn alive

I'm going to rephrase your question:

"When does the complexity and/or sophistication of an algorithm become sufficent so as to be considered alive?"

I suggest that this question is misleading. Life, or consciousness (which is what we're really discussing here) should, IMHO, not be considered in terms of a binary distinction; things are not merely conscious or unconscious. Rather, consciousness should be defined as a spectrum. Ants at one end, Humans at the other. The more complex the algorithm, the better it performs, the higher on the scale it goes.

As an excersise, rank the following objects in terms of consciousness:

Human, Flower, Ant, Elevator, Screwdriver, Eliza, HAL 9000.

Note first that a Flower is certainly alive, but has little consciousness. The Elevator has a basic Input/Process/Output loop - taking button presses, engaging machinery, etc.

Here's my list, in ascending order of consciousness: Screwdriver, Flower, Elevator, Ant, Eliza, HAL 9000, Human.

In my experience, a lot of people want to do something like this - [] denotes equal precedence: [Elevator, Screwdriver, Eliza, HAL 9000, Flower], [Ant, Human]

The Philosophy of Mind is a debate that has been going on forever, but in my opinion, if you hold that there is no "ghost in the shell", then it makes no sense to start talking about consciousness as a binary distinction.
Julian McKinlayhttp://julianmckinlay.com/
It's an important thing to keep in mind (no pun intended). That the mind can't comprehend itself is something that seems trivially true at first, but can lead one to seriously mistake the nature of comprehension. It's analogous to saying that no country can contain a map of itself, or a description of its political process.

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