Regarding the musical contest- I''ve always thought that would be good for a magic system. I''ve seen it implemented poorly, but it would be a great teaching tool plus a hell of a good time if it were implemented well. I would use a MIDI interface so that you could use a musical keyboard, + give players the option of using the Z-M row on the typing keyboard (plus the row above for sharps and flats- typical Tracker layout). Certain chords would have effects that could be used anywhere, maybe have "battles" like dueling banjoes? I think it could really rock. Anyway. . .

There''s mystery/whodunit as a gameplay mechanic. There''s trying to pick someone out of a crowd/track them down Fugitive-style. There''s the conversation element that''s been mentioned, but what if you were trying to tell if they were lying via vocal tone and facial expression? There''s something that was kinda/sorta mentioned earlier but passed over, that IMNSHO could be expanded way beyond what''s been done: Genetics/Animal Husbandry. There''s office politics, courtly intrigue, (basically the same as the latter, but with a bit more blood ) and courting rituals. There''s setting traps/manipulating the environment to one-up your opponent. How about the challenge of mere survival if you''re three inches tall and combat is therefore simply out of the question? That would incorporate many of these modes and more. How about the Twelve Trials of Hercules? Capturing the wildest horse on the planet could be a trip worth taking. Used sparingly, there''s nothing like thinly disguised button-mashing to break up the action. (eating contest, racing, etc.) One of my personal favorites would be a truly well-done black market game. (no Drug Wars, pleeeze) It would be kind of like Thief, only centered around avoiding detection from certain people, while trying to attract the attention of others. (hey, even pimps need marketing! )

Whew- Ok, off the top of my head, that''s all I''ve got. And I''m out of breath . Sorry if I repeated something that''s already been covered- I pretty much skimmed the topic (I''m at work and have to look semi- busy )

If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

quote:Original post by JSwing


But when bishop_pass suggests replacing combat with a spitting contest, you say "Precisely! Wouldn''t that be fun?"

I''m sorry. bishop was being sarcastic as was I. The concept is that when you look at the game Thief stealth was more prominent than combat. That''s a splendid example of something that produces the same level of entertainment as combat does in most games.

It works because it has a degree of risk, it''s repeatable (you do it throughout the whole game and it remains fun)...these are attributes of what combat delivers in other games...

so, we''re looking for game mechanics that deliver the same amount of fun as combat

first we must know why combat is so fun...

so far we''ve decided comat is:
1) repeatable
2) has a degree of risk
3) gives that adreneline rush and makes you feel powerful
because you beat someone

I''m sure there are other things that make combat fun. So, we''re looking for other activities that are as fun as combat such as stealth, survival in the wilderness, etc.






Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
What a plight we who try to make a story-based game have...writers of conventional media have words, we have but binary numbers

I like the idea of the riddle game. That is a good one. Here''s one, if anyone wants to guess it:

In the lady''s chamber
The four archers sing
Each with four voices
Pleasantly they ring!

Can anyone describe the scene? Good luck!

~~Jonathon

I agree with JSwing on that, although I think that when done properly, those non-interactive sections can also add a lot to a game.

I would like to point out that a majority of what we call "puzzles" are really just examples of poor game design. I have seen too many games in which one of these "puzzles" is substituted for the GET KEY TO PROGRESS FURTHER IN THE GAME code.

Take Deathtrap Dungeon, for example. This should have been a great game. The game concept was good, and the fantasy world from which it was drawn had some potential. Of course, there were many problems with this game, but what I''d like to point out is the horrible use of keys.

For those of you fortunate enough to have not played this game, here''s a quick summary: Get the red key, to open the red door, so you can get the gold key, so you can open the gold door, so you can get the silver key, so you can open the silver door, so you can pick up a fourth Venom Sword and progress to the next level, where you can do it all over again.

To avoid this kind of garbage, some game designers use the "puzzle" as a substitute for the key. The idea is that the player needs to spend enough time exploring some area of the game long enough to appreciate the game designer''s genius. Of course, repeated locked doors are beneath any good designer, so a "puzzle" is used instead.

The problem is that these are not REAL puzzles, they are only poor key substitutes. They require no real thought, they are only obstacles to keep the player busy. This is why games like Resident Evil were so full of running back and forth (going back and forth to fetch the valve wheel, fetch the pump handle, fetch the red gem, fetch the lighter, fetch the... you get the idea.)

On the other hand, consider a game like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. I consider this one of the absolute finest examples of great key design. Why were the keys so good? They were efficient, useful, and they grew.

By efficient, I mean that each key could open several areas of the game. Rather than a separate key for each "door" of the game, each key would open up whole new sections of the game.

One of the keys, for instance, was the ability to transform into a bat. Yes, this is a key. It opens up paths in the game which were inaccessible without it.

And unlike an inventory slot which says "Key," the bat ability is something that a player can get excited about. Unlike the keys in Deathtrap Dungeon, which were utterly worthless, the bat ability remains useful throughout the game. And let''s face it, turning into a bat is just cool.

This much I was already doing in my Dungeons & Dragons games. But Konami didn''t stop there. What I learned from Castlevania: SotN, is that keys can grow as well. Not only can you metamorphose into a bat, but that bat gains abilities as well. The bat key also gains the talents of firebreath, sonar, and a sonic force. (These may sound cheesy, but if you have played the game, you know that they were great.)

Sadly, when Konami took Castlevania into the third dimension, all of these lessons seemed to be forgotten. Castlevania 3D games aren''t any better than average, and are really a good deal worse than many. But just because Konami, usually a VERY solid company, has lost sight of some very important lessons, doesn''t mean that we should.

Please, no more stupid "puzzle" key substitutes! There are times when a key is necessary. But try to vary them. If a player needs to come in contact with more than two real, literal keys, your game design may be weak. If there is more than one "password" that a player needs to enter into a doorlock, your game design is probably weak. If a player needs to backtrack to a previous location more than once in any game in order to retrieve some item, your game design may be weak.

Let''s all make better games by being as creative as possible when using keys. And let''s save the word puzzle for real puzzles, not sorry, poorly designed excuses for keys.

~~Jonathon