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Classic RPG fight or RT fight?

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i would like to know your opinions about rpg fighting. do you like the classic style like FF games, wait ur turn to select ur move? or a style like parasite eve where u get 2 move around in real time(RT) but go into "classic rpg mode" when u attack? i think the former is ok, but i think it is a slow pace to fight, and i don''t like the fact that i have 2 sit there and take my hits. in parasite eve, u could move around and dodge attacks. many argue that rpg''s are supposed to make u someone u r not, so by having an RT dodge system, u throw the users skill into the game. i like it because it seems faster paced and it does use at least some of my hand-eye coordination, but i''m not a total sell on either. i was wondering what u think on this matter.
i want to make an rpg but i don''t want a classic style. baldur''s gate was cool, but i want a system like that except u have control over ur character. when i press left, the guy moves left, etc... so i guess i have 2 questions now! would this style interest anyone? and if so, would u like to have teammates? they would be automated and would take orders, but wouldn''t be controlled.
please feel free to answer either or both questions. thanks (sorry for the length)

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They both have their up sides and down sides. In RT, you have good control over a character, but you can only control one fighter. In FF-stlye, you can control a whole party. I think they both have their place, but your idea definently sounds cool. If I were you, not only would I make it so the player has to dodge the enemies attacks, but you also have to aim manually. I hate that auto-aim Star Ocean 2 crap where all you do is press X to win battles.

I also think you should put team mates in your game. It''d make it more fun.

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quote:
Original post by Dynamite
a style like parasite eve where u get 2 move around in real time(RT) but go into "classic rpg mode" when u attack?



Could you explain this more? I have never played parasite eve, and that sounds interesting.

IMO, I don't much like fully turned based systems. I do appreciate what they offer as far as the different strategical options, but I suppose I think they take too long too. Plus, like Wavinator said combat has a special flare because of the adrenaline, and I think that has something to do w/ it. I don't consider myself a big action game fan, but I still like the tension of RT.

quote:

many argue that rpg's are supposed to make u someone u r not, so by having an RT dodge system, u throw the users skill into the game. i like it because it seems faster paced and it does use at least some of my hand-eye coordination, but i'm not a total sell on either. i was wondering what u think on this matter.



I'm quite tired of that argument personally. I still think the rules of what makes an RPG an RPG are so blurred that it's just not a valid argument. The question should be what works best in the game, not whether if fits in an RPG or not.

quote:

i want to make an rpg but i don't want a classic style. baldur's gate was cool, but i want a system like that except u have control over ur character. when i press left, the guy moves left, etc... so i guess i have 2 questions now! would this style interest anyone? and if so, would u like to have teammates? they would be automated and would take orders, but wouldn't be controlled.



Yeah, it was interesting how BG let you pause at any time during battle, but I also feel that I would rather have some input into how the characters move. It can be boring letting the characters do all the work. In BG, I eventually just felt like once I got a basic strategy I was doing the same process every time and just waiting for the battle to be over.

Also, in an RPG type of game, I perfer only controlling one character. I think it's mostly because I think you can be better immersed into the character and it feels more personal when there's only 1 character.

(also, I just wanted to let you know...I noticed you used < b r > in the post...you don't have to do that if you just leave blank lines in the post it will put them in for you )

http://www15.brinkster.com/nazrix/main.html

"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on January 12, 2001 1:09:15 AM

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Personally, I like the combat in Odium.

For those who don''t know, it''s almost like chess. You move each character on a grid, and each weapon has a different pattern of where it can hit.

Pistols could only fire orthogonally w/ limited range. Rifles could fire in 8 directions for a longer range. SMG fires for a short range, but spreads over a few blocks.

It turned combat into a strategy game- totally unrealistic, but very engaging.

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quote:

If I were you, not only would I make it so the player has to dodge the enemies attacks, but you also have to aim manually. I hate that auto-aim Star Ocean 2 crap where all you do is press X to win battles.

I also think you should put team mates in your game. It''d make it more fun.



yeah wav, i was gonna have teammates, actually a military group. and yeah aiming would be manual. i''m leaning towards using stats to determine hits/missed, but also take into accout the manual aim. the better the player aims(i.e. center of body as opposed to the left arm) there would be a better chance of hitting. this way even if u r uncoordinated u can still play the game.

quote:

Original post by Dynamite
a style like parasite eve where u get 2 move around in real time(RT) but go into "classic rpg mode" when u attack?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Could you explain this more? I have never played parasite eve, and that sounds interesting.

IMO, I don''t much like fully turned based systems. I do appreciate what they offer as far as the different strategical options, but I suppose I think they take too long too. Plus, like Wavinator said combat has a special flare because of the adrenaline, and I think that has something to do w/ it. I don''t consider myself a big action game fan, but I still like the tension of RT.



in parasite eve u would move around a lot like resident evil2. it''s like FF7 when u r waiting for ur turn, i can''t think of what it''s called, but the bar that had 2 fill up b4 u could attack. u have 1 of those and it fills as u move. when it''s full, u can hit a button 2 attack. at this point, the game pauses and u select enemies and attacks just like FF7. after that process, it goes back 2 RT. i can throw an example of the system out this weekend and let u c it if u wish, just let me know.

oh, and i feel xactly the same as u do about that quote on rpgs!

quote:

Also, in an RPG type of game, I perfer only controlling one character. I think it''s mostly because I think you can be better immersed into the character and it feels more personal when there''s only 1 character.




i plan on having direct control over main char, but the other guys can receive commands like "fire here" or "cover fire", stuff like that. but they will have their own minds. i think the RT system make u "the" player like u were saying.

i also want the teammates to get better as well, but would anyone rather get new troops for every battle? would it be hard to maintain the other troops(like 3 or 4 teammates) since u r actually "in" the battle? what do u guys think about this?

also, thx 4 the line break info Nazrix

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quote:
Original post by JSwing

Personally, I like the combat in Odium.

For those who don''t know, it''s almost like chess. You move each character on a grid, and each weapon has a different pattern of where it can hit.

Pistols could only fire orthogonally w/ limited range. Rifles could fire in 8 directions for a longer range. SMG fires for a short range, but spreads over a few blocks.

It turned combat into a strategy game- totally unrealistic, but very engaging.


i liked this too in FF tactics(haven''t played Odium, actually never heard of it!). i considered that too, it takes care of the movement, but it''s even more drawn out that normal rpg fighting. i''m probably going 2 do one later w/ this system. thx 4 the input

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I''ve always liked the strategy involved with turn based combat. But I''m starting to come to the way of thinking that each game has their own needs. RT combat works in some games but not in others. Turn based is the same way. I absolutly hated the combat system in Baldur''s Gate. Pausing in the middle of combat is only something that you should do when you need to answer the phone or take a break because the last five minutes have been so intense. RT combat is probably the way you want to go if you don''t want a "clasic style".

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quote:

I absolutly hated the combat system in Baldur''s Gate. Pausing in the middle of combat is only something that you should do when you need to answer the phone or take a break because the last five minutes have been so intense.


i agree, i like BG, it was something new, but it didn''t quite capture the adrenaline IMO. but i have mixed feelings on pausing because sometimes it can help if u have multiple things 2 do at 1 time. but it slows down the pace and removes the "danger". i don''t know if imma use pause as BG does, maybe a REAL pause where the game is paused and u can''t perform any actions.

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I have only skimmed through the above, but I would just like to mention Revenant. It was single-person RPG which made full use of RT combat.
In it, you started with three keys:

A - Thrust
S - Slash
D - Smash(Hammer)

Slash could (IIRC) attack multiple opponents, whilst smash would cause immense damage. The really cool thing about this is you could go back to the trainer (after you''ve upped a few levels) and could learn a new move, a charging thrust, the something slash and the jumping smash, along with others...

My ideas would be that Thrust would have an accuracy bonus (like you could "thrust" their eye out), whilst the other two would be kept the same.

Just my thoughts

-TF

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quote:
Original post by TaintedFire

I have only skimmed through the above, but I would just like to mention Revenant. It was single-person RPG which made full use of RT combat.
In it, you started with three keys:

A - Thrust
S - Slash
D - Smash(Hammer)

Slash could (IIRC) attack multiple opponents, whilst smash would cause immense damage. The really cool thing about this is you could go back to the trainer (after you''ve upped a few levels) and could learn a new move, a charging thrust, the something slash and the jumping smash, along with others...

My ideas would be that Thrust would have an accuracy bonus (like you could "thrust" their eye out), whilst the other two would be kept the same.

Just my thoughts

-TF


that sounds interesting. did u like this style or was there something missing? was it like diablo in any way?

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Here is what i invision in my small game project im working on as far as the fighting is concerned. First let me say i havnt "really" started on the development of this part but have been "thinking" about what i want for some time. Also, everyone is different and I am only SHARING what i am gonna attempt...not what i think is "best"..since thats a subject thing and unrealistic.

I envision a mesh of 2 games when thinking of combat in my game: INFANTRY and EVERQUEST(EQ). If you dont know infantry, its an online game where movement is very keyboard intensive...movements like any quake style game(only this game is isometric view). I also like how some things are automated in EQ, like you select the enemy to fight and either pick your spell or your main "sword" weapon....you can at intervals "kick" or "bash" at the target. So somehow, i want this both, i want the movement of my isometric characters to be "somewhat" like quake controls with bring more involvement into your character along with some automation to elevated that annoying part of combat where you need "coordination" to win.

I havnt played the FF or any of the snes type games so i cant really comment on those styles..oh well.



aka John M.
Never give up. Never surrender!




Edited by - GalaxyQuest on January 14, 2001 6:31:45 PM

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I havent seen to many iso rpgs with gamepad control. this would increase the feeling of being the character. the only downside is that its harder to select items and people. you could make it so that a red box or something is around a person that you would hit if you attacked or a blue box for an item. using a gamepad would enable you to have mutliple attack and spell buttons versus the two mouse buttons. to be able to control several people at once you could set them on auto pilot on the last command they were told to do or add AI to determine what they would do and assign a button on you gamepad to iterate through the other characters to control specifically.

Check out Revenant for some cool rpg gamepad fighting.

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The game is definitely not an RPG, but being a fan of real time combat, I think Oni has a good system. It uses the standard FPS controls so you are in direct control at all times. Your movements, or lack thereof, control how you attack. It may be an action game, but the combat drew me in a lot more than anything I''ve seen in RPG''s since you controlled everything, and felt it.

I enjoyed Revenant''s style, but it never really pulled me in. And Parasite Eve was the same way. It was new and interesting, but I never really felt "in control." Having to pause to choose who and how I attacked killed a lot of the fun and immersion.
Needless to say, I hate turn/menu based styles.

Just my opinion.

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I won''t try to control an entire party in realtime.

Turn based should be turned toward strategy, while realtime to reflex.

Both are interesting.
However there''s another problem with realtime battles, how do you do to use the CHARACTER profeciencies instead of the PLAYER ones ?

Cause you''re playing a RPG, the PLAYER is not the CHARACTER.

how to balance this ?

In turn based it''s easy, player gives orders, character try to obey them using it''s skills.

But what about realtime battles ?

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

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Hey.
Just thought that I''d add my 2c worth, since I''ve been thinking about this for a while (I plan on wrighting an RPG once I finnish my current project - (read never)). The method I considered was using a more action oriented method of combat. Having played many turn based RPG''s I''ve noticed that the combat tends to become monotanous esp when your characters are fighting opponents lower than themselves. Building up skills and levels in these games was also too time consuming and rather than being a challenge is usually more a case of finding easily defeatable characters and continuing to fight them until your fingers are sore from hitting the attack button. (I''m not totally against turn based stratagy and some action oriented games sufer from this as well).

For my game I was thinking of using an approach whereby the player has to move the character directly. However I also want team members - so I was thinking of using a system for arranging how they walk like Baulders gate (ie differnt formations) with perhaps more orders to give to your team members eg hide/ambush... The player that is being directly controlled would have to attack using different buttons. I was thinking of streetfighter sort of combinations (but simpler) to do different moves. But i also want realistic sword fighting (prince of persia but better) perhaps moving the mouse for different moves?

I dunno. There are 2 many options, I just want the feeling of desparation and adrenaline that you would feel in a fight to come across to the user, not some relaxed, "hey sould I do this or this to that poxy looser?" I want the player to also use the games surroundings more in the combat ie tossing characters onto spikes, holding their heads over torches until their hair chatces on fire (you know what I mean). And the rate that you discover new moves and improve in stats could depend on how you perform in combat as well as affect your combat - but I also like the training idea.
Anyhow hope I havn''t rambled on too much.

Signing off.

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quote:
Original post by Ingenu

I won''t try to control an entire party in realtime.

Turn based should be turned toward strategy, while realtime to reflex.

Both are interesting.
However there''s another problem with realtime battles, how do you do to use the CHARACTER profeciencies instead of the PLAYER ones ?

Cause you''re playing a RPG, the PLAYER is not the CHARACTER.

how to balance this ?

In turn based it''s easy, player gives orders, character try to obey them using it''s skills.

But what about realtime battles ?



well ingenu, i planned on using proficiencies and stats in determining hits and damage. the better ur aim, the better ur chances of success. there will be a bonus for aiming at the center of an enemy as opposed to aiming at the arm. stats will also come into play with damage. better shots(character, not player) do more damage(i.e shoot a guy in the heard opposed to shooting the left waist). i''m also gonna use agility, some players are simply harder 2 hit. i hope this is clear enough, if not, let me know.

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Personally, (and I have said this before,) I would love a game where I get to explore as in Ultima 9 or Tomb Raider, and then when battle started, the camera pans round to a side-on view and you get to fight like a beat-em-up game, SoulCalibur being the one I''d be most interested in emulating. I expect that such a game would be nearer to Diablo than to a ''deep'' RPG, but I think it would be a lot of fun.

Apart from that though, I personally liked the totally turn-based games. As already mentioned, they shift the balance of ability from player reactions to character abilities, which is what I prefer to see in ''RPGs''. It works best if you have some interesting options, rather than just choosing ''attack'' or ''defend'' for all your characters, obviously.

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My dream game is much like that. I want it to be a regular RPG, with lots of exploring and plenty of action along with a great twisting and intriguing story, but a unique battle system.

You are walkign along the world map and it goes into battle. THe battle system is a fighting game. Magic spells can be used with designated controller buttons (or keys) and combos can be used a la tekken or other fighting games. bosses can higher skill levels or faster or more health, and after defeating a boss you can learn a new combo. i dont know, its just food for though i guess


Neo-Toshi Software - The City That Never Sleeps

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quote:
Original post by Ferinorius

My dream game is much like that. I want it to be a regular RPG, with lots of exploring and plenty of action along with a great twisting and intriguing story, but a unique battle system.

You are walkign along the world map and it goes into battle. THe battle system is a fighting game. Magic spells can be used with designated controller buttons (or keys) and combos can be used a la tekken or other fighting games. bosses can higher skill levels or faster or more health, and after defeating a boss you can learn a new combo. i dont know, its just food for though i guess


Neo-Toshi Software - The City That Never Sleeps



this is interesting, but what about party members? or do u not care about them? this is my main problem. i''m gonna need teammates in realtime. i''m gonna give it a go and c what comes out of it. but that is an intersting concept.





--I don''t judge, I just observe


Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida

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You could hit a key (just like magic) to switch between your party memebers, or you could have A.I. control them the way the player sets, or somthing really creative I havent thought out yet.




Edited by - Ferinorius on January 24, 2001 7:15:03 PM

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Another cool idea, the other teammates could be A.I. controlled until the player wants to take control of them. This would allow the player or the computer to control them. It would be a really cool system in my opinion.

Neo-Toshi - The City That Never Sleeps

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quote:
Original post by Ferinorius

Another cool idea, the other teammates could be A.I. controlled until the player wants to take control of them. This would allow the player or the computer to control them. It would be a really cool system in my opinion.

Neo-Toshi - The City That Never Sleeps

by control, do u mean direct control like u have over ur character? like hit a key, and now i''m the next guy? or do u mean like giving orders? i''m leaning towards AI teammates w/ different personalities. they will be able 2 receive orders, but u can''t control them directly. Baldur''s Gate let u control the others. with this style of play(direct control over main char) it would be tricky 4 the player to switch back and forth between players, and the main character might get waxed in the process cuz u r not controlling him.





--I don''t judge, I just observe


Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:

... a game where I get to explore as in Ultima 9 or Tomb Raider, and then when battle started, the camera pans round to a side-on view and you get to fight like a beat-em-up game



quote:
Original post by Ferinorius

You are walkign along the world map and it goes into battle. THe battle system is a fighting game.



Omikron does this. It''s 1/3 Tomb Raider, 1/3 fighter, and 1/3 FPS. The system is ok, but the story is corny.

-JSwing

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster

Omikron does this. It''s 1/3 Tomb Raider, 1/3 fighter, and 1/3 FPS. The system is ok, but the story is corny.

-JSwing


what didn''t u like about this. u say it''s ok, what were the flaws?



--I don''t judge, I just observe


Stuck in the Bush''s, Florida

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