Hi Lamtd,

The difference is that you are talking about buying ONE copy of a game from a friend. Second-hand games is a widespread thing and yes, the publisher/developer doesn''t get paid for this, but it was originally bought.

Now downloading games from the net, we are talking about 100s of copies, with only one being legally bought (if that). You are now going into the legal side of things, the wrong side.


If you want better games, the first thing NOT to do is start by obtaining illegal copies of current games.


To go with your other point of game life-span, pick more carefully :-) The thing is that games publishers and developers are companies and as such want to make money. Now usually, this means knocking out games as quick as possible. Unfortuantely, people do buy these games which then means the developers/publishers will want to make more of these games.....

Now this is NOT the only way it works, you do get great games released, but unfortunately it is one of the major factors involved.................

A good thing for lifespan is now the PSone is launched, a lot of publishers are interested in Budget line-ups. What this means is back to basics, forget the super-flash FMV and such, games will have to play well to sell. Also this could result in the updating of older classics, which as long as they are done well, could be cool :-)


Cheers,


Marc.

>> If you want better games, the first thing NOT to do is start by obtaining illegal copies of current games.

Hmm... yes, that is true to some extent, but this is quite like saying "If you want better games, the first thing to do is start by buying average games"... but if everybody buy games that are just above average, developers will think, just like you stated, that it''s no use making better games, because the current games sell well enough (I know, I got a twisted mind ).

Also, lemme give you three real-world examples:

1) I got a "pirated" copy of Metal Gear Solid (PS). I played the game for like 30 hours total, it was pretty cool, one of the best game I''ve ever seen. I was tempted many times to buy it, just because the developers really deserved it. In the end I didn''t buy it, but I will buy Metal Gear Solid 2 (PS2) instead, so the developers will still get their money (and I would have only bought a second-hand MGS1 anyway, so it''s a better alternative).

2) I downloaded a pirated copy of R-Types (PS) off a warez site. I''m a big R-Type fan and that''s the kind of rare game I can''t find where I live. The game is basically a compilation of both R-Type and R-Type II, it does not even include R-Type III, and the graphics are below those of a SNES. In the end, that game didn''t deserved to be bought, and I''d rather play R-Type III on my SNES rather than this so-called game.

3) Being reckless, I still managed to buy R-Type Delta (PS) as a second-hand game. The game is barely good enough to keep me entertained for more than a week-end, it''s not bad, it''s just... plain boring. Last time I put the game in my console, that was to try the texture filtering on my PS2... In the end, well... I bought a game I''m not going to play with, developers didn''t get their money, I don''t have enough money to buy any other game, and I''m not happy.

So what is my point ? That good games will still be rewarded in the end (did I mention I did a LOT of publicity on how good MGS was, and because of that I have a couple of friends who actually bought that amazing game ?); Also, I don''t feel sorry for having downloaded that R-Type game off the net, I would have been con anyway if I had ever bought that game. Though I guess it''s a little different for PC games, as demos are available everywhere - even though I remember Duke Nukem 3D, where the demo included the best levels of the game, and the full version added only some boring levels... that was a shame.

Hi,


No I''m not saying to get better games you have to start buying average games! I said the first thing to do is NOT buy illegal games......

You are trying to justify breaking the law and obtaining a pirated copy of MSG, by saying it''s ok because you are going to buy the next one? Come on, it doesn''t matter how you try and justify it, you have still commited a criminal act....

Now as for the R-Type games, it amuses me how many people buy games then complain about them afterward!!!! When I buy games, I make sure that they are the ones I want, you have magazines and the internet which can offer you different opinions on the product, luckily you did only get them second-hand....


People have the mentality that one game is not going to hurt, prices are too high....etc..... well making games costs. If you want more big epics like Zelda64/Shenmue/Black and White/Quake, well take a look at the development teams size and the length of time to make them. Now take an educated guess at how much the wage bill is alone, not to mention paying companies for FMV, sound effects, music........then to make the discs/package them/distribute them....it all adds up.

You can''t go expecting better quality games, then say that you want them but it''s ok to get them pirated or second-hand!


Cheers,


Marc.

You are right. However I choose to talk more about the money, since anyone who sees fit to use pirated software are not going to be worried about being in the wrong :-)

A lot of in-house tools are licensed out BTW, but that is not your point I know :-)


Cheers,


Marc.

>> You are trying to justify breaking the law and obtaining a pirated copy of MSG, by saying it''s ok because you are going to buy the next one? Come on, it doesn''t matter how you try and justify it, you have still commited a criminal act....

Yep, just like when I drive too fast on the freeway (err... ok, I admit, I drive too fast all the time...). This is illegal, crimininal, foolish, whatever... I agree (I''m a criminal.. woohoo ! j/k). What I wanted to point out is that in the end the developers will still get some money from me. In a world where piracy didn''t exist, well, I would just have asked my friend to lend me the game for one more week, so I wouldn''t have bought it either anyway... game developers have got to get real, not everybody who play their game will end up giving them money, and this doesn''t mean they''re all pirates. I could also go on saying I''ve already spend thousands of dollars in games and game systems (quite a bunch for the PS2 only), but that would be pointless, wouldn''t it ?

>> Now take an educated guess at how much the wage bill is alone, not to mention paying companies for FMV, sound effects, music...

I work in a game company, so I kinda know how much money is invested when developping a game

>> it amuses me how many people buy games then complain about them afterward!!!!

Well, believe me, it''s not that funny... I agree that sometimes I could spend more time reading game reviews etc. I used to spend a lot of money on buying magazines; But you can''t get a real feel of the game until you''ve played it. There are some games that I consider to be very fun to play (Phalanx on the SNES) that got poorly rated in just about every magazine I read. And well, sometimes there are just so few games of a specific genre, that the only thing you can do is give it a try (if I listen to IGN, I''m not going to buy a PS2 RPG anytime soon :|).

>> You can''t go expecting better quality games, then say that you want them but it''s ok to get them pirated or second-hand!

True, but second-hand is still legal as far as I know, and it doesn''t hurt my wallet like a $60 game do (you guys should try taking a look at the prices in France, a 20.6 tax on everything doesn''t help the developers to get their money either ). I know this sounds a bit stupid, but if games used a system similar to shareware (the original system I mean, not the "I give you a crippled version, so give me your money so you can get the real thing") on top of regular ways of selling game, maybe that could help. Something like "hey, I played your game at a friend''s house, it was pretty cool, we had hours of fun with it, so I thought you deserved some bucks, and here they are". If everybody paid even just $2 for each game they played and found cool, I believe that would reduce the losses due to piracy. Of course, you would have to find a simple way to send money, because nobody is going to do it if it''s slow and complicated, but actually I think that it could work (even if a bit idealistic). Isn''t that a great idea ? lol

Are we done talking *at* each other yet?

All those who have been convinced they were wrong by someone on the Other Side please say "Aye".

*crickets chirp*

Alrighty, then. Can we move on now?




DavidRM
Samu Games

I agree. Piracy has been discussed to death on these boards, with everyone except the script kiddies agreeing its wrong. I have found games written and sold by me on warez sites. Pirates whinge about the profits made by Eidos, yet they pirate games made by myself in my living room. If i don''t sell enough games, I can''t pay the bills. How many pirates give a damn about that though?
Cant we include piracy in the forum FAQ as something we just dont discuss any more (like C vs C++...)

http://www.positech.co.uk

Don''t get me wrong, I never said piracy was right or anything; like I said, I totally agree on the fact that it''s illegal, just like driving too fast, taping a movie on tv, or even lending a book to a friend (you DID know that, didn''t you ? ). Btw, if it ever meant to be a rightful act, it wouldn''t have been called "piracy" lol.

This thread was more about the impact of piracy on software business, and what could be used to reduce it. I did come with a solution in my last post, however twisted it may be If I remember right, the original shareware concept worked fine with a good amount of programs. I don''t think there''s any real solution to piracy, because you can hardly force people who''ve been pirating software for years to suddenly stop and go out to buy their software. However, I believe that installing a concept similar to shareware for basically EVERY software could have very positive results, for the reasons stated in my previous post. Added to massive advertising (maybe not in-game, but on loading screens), this would help software companies to fix the hole done by piracy. Also, it''s not a matter of how many people actually click on the monkey, it''s how much a company is willing to pay to get that monkey displayed within a top-selling game.

I think the only solution is advertising. Put the adds
at the start of the game or in the save/load screens.

You could tailor it to the region its being sold in as well.

I think there is a business oportunity for a company to
get the adds for each area around the world and put them
in the games.

I believe advertising is inevitable as people are going to be able to download huge files very easily in a couple of years.