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Jakk

Idea for weaponry

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So it seems that every mmorpg has an uber weapon, and obviously this ruins gameplay. It has been brought up in these forums and I think I would like to expand on the ideas already stated. Resources. When you create weapons / armor you can get an uber weapon but lets say if you combine 5 resources to make metal x, 3 metals to make crafting material y, and finally 3 crafting materials to make weapon z, then you would have completely original weapons, and different weapons help different people. Nothing special right? Well, if you do that then you can make it more complex, a weapon x may benefit a player that uses speed than one that uses strength ( this is based on the principle that there are no classes, so players can make completely original characters and not be restricted by the developer ) This ends uber weapons and creates a world where anyone that is intelligent enough to create a weapon that works perfectly with their character and the better players would actually be good, not just the players who get an uber weapon, find a cheap build, and spend their whole lives leveling. ( although an intelligent player would still be better under these conditions, this would just create a world where those players wouldn't be very good ) But through this line of thought I hit a problem. Yes, you get originality with +10 strength, and other examples where you create how it benfits you, but how else could it benefit you. How could resources give different benfits. Maybe skills, but once again only to a degree, it would be too easy to then find the best skills and create and uber weapon, or close to one at least. What in battle benefits could you recieve froma weapon orther than stats and skills? - Jakk

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Original items being produced with materials requires a rule-based system in your game that governs it. So in about one week people would figure out the system and start growing the perfect weapon/character matchups, and either skate through the single-player or dominate the multiplayer. It's a colossal task to balance a procedural system like that. You saw how quickly players found a way to exploit Morrowind's spell crafting system to give themselves infinite stats and skills.

But I like the idea of building terrific items, rather than farming them.

*Brace for EVE fanboyism!*

The fancier ships in EVE are really, really fancy, and quite expensive. They're also destructible. So you can get a ship that really gives you an advantage, but it'll cost you a month worth of money to get it. But it's not a free ticket forever, because if some dude blows it up (or a gank squad jumps you and ruins it), then you're S.O.L. and have to replace the thing. Great weapons and equipment aren't so rare that the one guy who has it is invincible, but it's not a free ticket into the top tier of toughness, either.

So if you can get great gear, but it's not an apotheosis to do so, then you can start to deal with the game, even at the highest level, as an ever-changing situation. You don't just get to the point where you are more than a match for every enemy because you have all the rare and unique gear in the game.

Your idea about having equipment complement a certain style of play is also very good. I think that it's worthwhile to let players build a suit of armor that is at a high level, but maybe sacrifices a little bit of defensive power in order to reduce its weight, or a sword that's heavier and slower, but deals extra damage. This is something that a good crafiting system could address. Alas, I don't have the experience with Everquest or other games with famous crafting systems, so I've never seen a system like this in action.

But I'd love to see one. You could even get rid of random loot drops in favor of material collection. How great would it be if mobs didn't actaully have little wallets full of gold, but their teeth and skins could be used to make awesome weapons and armor? What if killing them didn't profit you, but you had to fight past them to harvest a resource node? That's what I'm after.

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Thanks for your input, but I was looking more along the lines of help. Yes, getting strength while sacraficing speed makes the weapon system more exciting, but what more can be added. If you just give stats weapons will be easier to re-create and originality won't be that big of a deal. For example, John makes a swors that gives +2 speed, and +2 weight, while Jim's sword gives +4 speed and +4 weight, that's good and all but it limits how far a player can go and nothing is very amazing.

If you were to make a world that is very hard to cross ( maybe there is a huge ocean that takes hours to cross so you have to stop at islands ) then players will create a system where items at the other side of the world are more expensive, they are rarer, and hard to get to so you'll obviously pay a ton more to buy them. But if you just give stat bonuses and skill bonuses, those weapons won't be so unique, unless you split them up by area ( i.e. speed is in the west and strength is in the west ) but this would create an unfair situation for western players who want to fight with strength, they have to pay way more.

So the major question that this problem brings about, what other benefits can you give in this type of system? As I said before skills can only go so far, and stats aren't enough, so what else is there?

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Give weapons a magic 'type' such as fire, ice, lightning, silver, poisoned. By mixing magic powders into your metal. Only one 'type' per weapon. different types and different effects. Like perhaps a 'silver' type can deal double damage (or 1.5) to werewolves vampires and undead('unholy' can go against monks, angels, fairies, etc..) Fire/ice adds a chance of fire/ice burst to each attack causeing extra damage unless magicly resisted (by magic armor or certain enemys) lightning has a small chance to stun your enemy. 'Blood' can suck small amounts of hp per hit. 'Shadow' renders certain defensice magic types useless for a small time. 'Poison' deals small amounts of extra dmg overtime.

Also, along with weight, speed, and damage; you may want 'parrying chance' and 'critical chance' as well as 'stunning blow' and 'chance of serious wound' or something along those lines.
[cool]

[Edit:] Got this from my own sig. Add a 'rot' effect; after the battle if a player is infected with rot, his strength and defense is down 15% until it wears off or is healed.

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You could give weapons realy rare elemental or status effects. Mabey even some way to mix elements. for instance if you craft a sword out of fire-steel and water-iron you would get a steam sword (or sumthing).

edit: ^^ beat me to it.

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You could also give your weapons not only attack power, but min and max attack power giving some weapons wide range, like 5 to 32 dmg, and others a short range, such as 18 to 24 dmg. Maybe have one kind of stone up the minimum attack whilst another ups the maximum. Also make sure you set a limit to the amount of stones you are able to mix in (one or three is best) and don't let players 'strip' their weapons either. Make the stones really expensive and the more powerful ones quest rewards or rare drops.

Also add a stone that gives a better chance to hit the enemy or one that gives a chance of a higher damage roll.

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how about adding more factors into the calculations such as
environment:

Bows have range penalties in the rain ormetal weapons/armor gives encumbrance penalties in the desert the longer you stay in hot places.

I personally like this because it adds some dynamic strategy. The environment can quickly change and not be controlled by the players so it will be harder
to find just 1 set of uber weapons.

opponent weapons:
swords vs poles/spears have a slight disadvantage except if you have the "Spear Dojo School training" (lets say 2 or more skills from this school)

or each weapon remembers how to fight other weapons. continually fighting against spear based enemies will eventually make negate the disadvantage and makes adds bonus to your attacks against spears.

battle skills, special attacks:
weapons have special attacks (similar to lufia SNES RPG). A small knife may have small damage but it lets the player use "Quick Stab" attack that bypasses enemy armor. The player has to make choices if the added damage is worth losing the special ability of the weapon. Have limits to the type of things you can add to a weapon. The "Quick Stab" can only be attached to knives.

for other additions:

fame:

If a blacksmith player sells more swords of higher quality, the higher their fame rises. If a player uses a sword made by a famous smith, some NPCs might recognize, be awed, even try to steal the sword from the player, or some nobles might invite the player to their mansion. Make it also possible to create fake items that give the same effects but can have very negative consequences if it is discovered (say a random 15% chance somebody will recognize and you get fined/arrested or some other negative consequence. [grin]) Smiths who attain Legendary status might automatically bestow small attack bonus to all their swords. On the other hand a disgraced smith might remove all bonus to their weapons, stores refuse to sell/buy his weapons.

Weapon history:
The weapons keep some of their history. A weapon used by several powerful PKers in the past might change its change its name to "BloodSword" and be hated by NPCs. A sword used to kill 1000 orcs becomes "Orc Slayer" and have bonus stats against orcs.

Of course the more factors you add the harder it is to balance the gameplay.

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Quote:
Original post by yapposai
Weapon history:
The weapons keep some of their history. A weapon used by several powerful PKers in the past might change its change its name to "BloodSword" and be hated by NPCs. A sword used to kill 1000 orcs becomes "Orc Slayer" and have bonus stats against orcs.


I like that idea.

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Quote:
Original post by Jakk
So it seems that every mmorpg has an uber weapon, and obviously this ruins gameplay. It has been brought up in these forums and I think I would like to expand on the ideas already stated.

Resources. When you create weapons / armor you can get an uber weapon but lets say if you combine 5 resources to make metal x, 3 metals to make crafting material y, and finally 3 crafting materials to make weapon z, then you would have completely original weapons, and different weapons help different people. Nothing special right?

Well, if you do that then you can make it more complex, a weapon x may benefit a player that uses speed than one that uses strength ( this is based on the principle that there are no classes, so players can make completely original characters and not be restricted by the developer ) This ends uber weapons and creates a world where anyone that is intelligent enough to create a weapon that works perfectly with their character and the better players would actually be good, not just the players who get an uber weapon, find a cheap build, and spend their whole lives leveling. ( although an intelligent player would still be better under these conditions, this would just create a world where those players wouldn't be very good )

But through this line of thought I hit a problem. Yes, you get originality with +10 strength, and other examples where you create how it benfits you, but how else could it benefit you. How could resources give different benfits. Maybe skills, but once again only to a degree, it would be too easy to then find the best skills and create and uber weapon, or close to one at least. What in battle benefits could you recieve froma weapon orther than stats and skills?



- Jakk


Very good point. Already perfectly implemented in my current MMORPG i am playing. It's truly revolutionary.

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Details:; (complicated)

The game has 5 main attributes, plus 4 less important attributes,

Combat:
STRength
- decides damage output and weight you can carry

ENDurance
- decides how well you stand melee attacks

DEXerity
- affect evasion (and evasion type skills), hitting chance and damage stability (receive/deliver)

INTelligence
- affect spell casting power, stun (receive/deliver)

CHArisma
- affect hate (as required by tanks), stun (receive/deliver)

Wind,Fire,Water,Earth are less important attributes which are spellcast/resist related.

Virtually all items are breakable, with the assumption that hardcore gamers capabable of getting super rich in comparison to relatively casual players, and that usually they prefer to high damage output pvp type characters, and some of them might prefer soloing over grouping. 2 classes are specially designed for them, namely, assasin and dual-wielder. Both requires high strength, as a result, strenght gears runs much more expensive than gears of other attributes, as required by the game mechanics itself. For example, a set of totally 300 INT may deliver a decent effect as long as INT is concerned, however, even when you get a set of 600STR gear, you'll have the desire to make it 700STR.

Virtually all items are breakable, so no matter how rich you are, financial management is required, else it sucks all your money and bankrupts you.

Take Katana as an example, for crafting, it consists of materials mined by smiths themselves, materials from the player market, and materials from NPC shops (exclusively, all craftable items behave this way).

Katana = 1 deluxe handle, 1 metal connector, 12 hardened ingots, 6 gold pieces, 10 silver pieces, 16 charcoals.

All of the materials/components can be purchased from NPC shops if you are willing to pay double to triple costs and dont plan to make any profits at all.

delux handle - 16gold if purchased from NPC, 7.5gold if from players. It's used by Smith class but crafted by the Knight class.

metal connector and hardened ingots are made from iron, copper (mined by smith class) and coal (mined by ninja, monk and mage classes but not smith).

gold pieces and silver pieces are almost exclusively from NPC shops, thou occasionally drop from mobs yet far less than enough from crafting.

charcoals are mined by ninja, monk and mage classes, same as coal.

Total cost of crafting a Katana is around 97gold, of which, 80gold contribute to NPC shopping, 8.5 from player market, 8.5 self mined and made. As you can see, the 80gold NPC purchase acts as a stopper from mass crafting. Moreover, it takes time to do both the player market shopping and mining. Simply put, even the in-game gold farmers find it difficult to make money quick enough to make RL profits. That's why there are not so many farmers in this game. After a long process, you can sell your Katana to NPC for 100gold to make a 3gold profit.

It's usually not worth the effort this way to earn only 3golds, so you need to craft something capable of selling to the player market. First, you need to tune your char to be professed in one or two special areas. My toon is good at Katana and platemail crafting, not chainmails nor polearms nor clubs...etc. So my chances of crafting a good Kanata is relatively higher (than those smiths not professed in the areas). Default damage of a Katana is 42, maximum damage is 42*1.4=58, after your toon is professed, max damage may reach 58*1.1=64.

1 out of 10~20 Katana, I will make one with damage 50~56, 1 out of 100 goes beyond that. Say, by chance i made a Katana with damage 55, can I sell it to the player market? The answer is NO, noone will buy it, coz there are process yet to go through to make your product final. (so complicated to explain)

In order to sell to the player market, you need to first enhance your quality Katana with attribut *gems* which are dropped by mobs. You can put up to 3 gems to your Katana. There is risk of failure there so you need to handle it carefully, by best evaluation of the situation. If the Katana doesn't have other good attributes than the 55 damage, I'll target the product to dual-wielders, so I'll add STR gems to the Katana.

There are +4/+5/+6 STR gems 15/30/100 gold respectively from player market and can be from mob drops. So I carefully add a +4 gem first, +4 gem is a less risky one to add first. There is a value defines how many gems can be added, the initial value is 0~5/15, for convenience, my Kanata is 1/15, each gem added will cause the value to roll +6~15. So I added the +4 gem, the dice rolls +7, as a result, my Katana now bears a value of 8/15 (+7 from 1/15). So the only chance I can add up to 3 gems is that the next roll will be +6 to make the value 14/15 (+6 from 8/15), before it reaches the ceiling 15/15.

On the other hand, a +4 gem may turn out to give +2~+6 value to the specific attribute while may do -2~+2 to other attributes.

This time unfortuately, it gives +3STR -2DEX. It ruined the Katana as DEX is also important to dual-wielders and a +3STR is not good. So I have to sell it to NPC, earning 3gold from the Katana itself but losing 15gold in the gem.

2nd attempt, added another +4 gem, it gives a +6STR, not bad, but the it pumps the slot value from 1/15 to 15/15 with a +14 dice roll. This makes the katana worthless, so sell to NPC and suffer the loss.

3rd attempt, +6STR, but the slot value runs to 10/15, no hope for a 3rh enchanting, I put in a +5 gem (instead of the +6 one) to finish it, it turns out to be a +12STR katana, with a player market price of 300gold.

4th attempt, extremely lucky this time, a 62 damage katana with an initial value of 0/15, a +4 gem gives +6STR and 6/15 slot value, the 2nd +4 gem makes it a +12STR with 12/15. Now I will add an expensive +6 gem to finish, yet there's another process (actually 2)to go before this is done.

first, you can add deluxe decorative item to the katana, which is extremely rare and will increment 1 slot value, so I spent 2000gold on the decorative item and add it to the Katana to make more unique. Now the slot value becomes 13/15 (+1 from 12/15). Then add the +6 gem, luckily, it turns out to be a +17STR Katana. Thou +18 is the ceiling value but it's like mission impossible, so all the best you can wish for is a +17 attribute.

Other than the gems, there are player crafted stones can also be used to enhance the weapon, there are 2 fixed slots for these stones. Precious stone crafting is another challenging and exciting job to do, but limited to the bard class only. Similarly, by your luck, you can merge up to 3 raw attribute stones to make a completed crafted stone, with ceiling value +17 (mission impossible +18). Another expensive stone can be added beforehand to remove the -ve attribute, this simple increase your cost in case of failure attempts, yet it guarantees no -ve attributes. Say, a +12STR -2INT stone sells at 150gold, while a +12STR stone without the negative INT attribute can sell at 350~400 gold.

A +17STR stone worth around 12000gold in teh player market. Adding of such a stone gives +15~19 STR, and -2~+2 values to other attributes. So I purchased 2 +17STR stones from my bard friend with 24000gold. Adding stones is of a more breath-taking process, as you can see. My lucky day, 1st stone makes the Katana to a +33STR one (+16 from +17), the 2nd one makes to the +50STR ceiling (+17 from +33), +50 is the ceiling value of any attribute of an item. It sells at 50000~70000gold in the player market.

As been said before, the desire for attributes other than STR is not that high, since above certain values, the effect is not obvious as the effect of STR. So exclusively, STR and thus damage output is the main desire, while only the most hardcore players can afford and willing to spend money on these breakable uber leet gears. As for other players, most likely they maintain a semi-decent gear set, it's less of a problem if it's only for rolling up a toon. An even better choice is to develop a char class other than assasin and dual-wielder (especially the dual-wielder, an extremely money sucking profession).

There are always alternatives, if I estimate that not many players can afford a +50STR uber leet katana, I can make it less expensive to suit for the market situation. Instead of putting 2 +17STR stones, you can add a pair with different values, say, one +17 with another ranging from +10~+15. Or even enhance other attributes than STR to further cut the value to suit for the market, say, add 1 +17STR with another +200hp (700gold), to sell the +33STR+200hp at 15000 to get cash back quicker.

How if to make it more expensive, say, to sell at 100,000+gold instead of 50000~70000. It's possible. A super precious raw stone called "dragon tear drop" is available at 30000~50000 gold in the player market, it's an extremely rare mob drop, it can be used on an existing crafted stone to double~triple its attribute value. In the previous example, I can buy one (instead of 2) +17STR stone, add a "dragon tear drop" on it, it gives a +34~50STR final stone (+17*2~+17*3), I dont know the failure rate in doing so, coz i never reach that richness to buy a dragon tear drop and try on it.

So with a direct +50STR stone, you can make your katana a +50STR(stone), +17DEX(gem),+17END(stone), super uber leet katana (pehaps worth like 200,000 gold). Yet prepare yourself to break it within a week, if you use it for general mob-killing purpose. Usually, such a kind of uber leet gears are used only in the occasions of taking down an extremely tough boss, and pay like 300~2000gold (depending on durability decreasing) to NPC smiths to do the durability upkeeping (yes, by paying a dear cost, you can upkeep the durability). As for other times, they are kept deep inside the owners' warehouses.

For your reference;
as a tank smith, I've got 5000gold cash with around another 5000gold worth properties, I am considered *rich* amongst my friends. I cant make more than that within my time arrangement/proportion between crafting and adventuring. It seems that the rate how my gears break keeps me from becoming richer than that. So, a 50,000 "dragon tear drop" can only be a dream to me, not to speak the finalized uber Katana. :P

As for the ebayers, roughly, 15,000gold = USD35.

Link: A lv60 dual-wielder with his uber leet gear set

[Edited by - Hawkins8 on March 13, 2006 12:45:34 AM]

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I really like your idea about geographic distribution of materials influencing their price.

How about if different areas have different resources, and so the fighting style is shaped by the type of weapons that are easiest to build? A place with lots of "light" materials would develop a speedy combat style, whereas a place with "hard" materials would have really terrific armor and blunt weapons and a place with "sharp" materials would encourage characters to take advantage of damage-dealing bladed weapons.

So a foreigner would be a novel challenge in any of these places, and you'd have to rethink your strategy based on the type of gear and skills you were used to fighting. Maybe guys from the stony isle can generally tank very well, and the ninja people of the leather jungle use hand-to-hand grappling unbuff techniques and stealth.

I love the idea of weapon history. If weapons require maintenance, and can be destroyed or lost easily, then relatively few weapons will last for a long time. But once a weapon has been around for a certain amount of time, or been used for a certain amount of deeds, it is smiled upon by the gods and becomes a legendary weapon. That way, epic loot doesn't just mysteriously inhabit the world, it can be generated by historic events.

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Quote:
Original post by ForeverNoobie
Quote:
Original post by yapposai
Weapon history:
The weapons keep some of their history. A weapon used by several powerful PKers in the past might change its change its name to "BloodSword" and be hated by NPCs. A sword used to kill 1000 orcs becomes "Orc Slayer" and have bonus stats against orcs.


I like that idea.


I don't see why the sword would get bonus stats... the blood of your enemies somehow changed the physical properties of the sword? Nah. Have some kind fear effect any orc in a certain radius of the weapon. You know so you have some "Ug burg ug nog nog" ("Damn that's the uber orc slaying sword", for those of you who don't speak fluent orcish)

15% chance to miss or something...

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There should be no "golden hammer" which solves all problems on itself. Yet if there is any cost associated with any weapon, it is not possible to make expensive weapons suck because no1 would buy them, right:)

Solution to this problem is not a simple one, yoda says.

A) It would be extremely good for any advanced weapon to be really advanced in a some narrow area. For instance all swords do X slash damage and Y piercing damage.

But double curved sabre does XX slash damage and 10% of Y piercing damage. So it is very good against some subset of armor which is weak against slash, but pretty bad against anything else.

The more uber the gear is the more specialized it has to be or it will be good for everything.

B) It should be hard for player to use uber weapon all the time. Mostly cost wise. Lets say no matter what you hit your weapon losses some durability, to restore it you have to spend some materials to repair it.

Obviously uber-shmuber methril ultra charged plasma blade will take much more materials for repair it then rusty dagger. So you can smash barrels with plasma blade all day long, no problem, but it will cost you 3 months of work to make money to repair it.

This can really be interesting in pvp. Then you want to win so you want best weapon, but on the other hand the cost of such victory will drive to use more appropriate low cost gear depending on possible benifits of the victory. I mean whats the point wasting 100k worth of weapon durability to kill a noob with 1k worth of possible loot on him.

But you sure can plasma blade him if it really matters.

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You could have a Scissors/Paper/Stone type relationship between the weapons (and armour).

For instance if you had chainmail armour you would have good protection from slashing weapons, but maybe against thin peircing weapons (eg stilleto) it would have little protection. This way if someone was useing chainmail you could switch to a peircing weapon and reduce the effectivness of their armour.

Also a long reach weapon, like a pike would be less effective against a dagger if the attacker could get close to you. On the other hand a pike would be very effective against an opponent that you could keep at a distance from you (say moveing backwards).

If you give weapons (and armour) some kind of disadvantage then you can avoid the "Uberweapon" problem as there will always be some way of negating its powers.

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I dunno... I kind of like the idea of training weapons the same way we train our characters. It allows for some extremely interesting gameplay, and a HUGE amount of variety in equipment.

In a sense, it almost approaches voodoo-type magic. If I kill a hundred orcs with my sword then it becomes either an orc-bane or and orc-ish sword. Does it take on the characteristics of the things it kills, or does it become better at killing those things? I.e. if I kill a bunch of dragons with my sword does it develop the ability to breathe fire, or does it offer protection against things which breathe fire?

And that could be part of the manufacture of the weapon, too. You can either make it absorb certain traits or attack certain traits.

Aaaaaandddd when it comes time to sell your weapon you have the option of telling the weapon's history or just allowing the buyer to figure it out for him/herself.

Hmm. Now I need to sit down and think about this for a little while...

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I hate coming in late on discussions like this...

Anyways, back to the original question of:

<quote>say if you combine 5 resources to make metal x, 3 metals to make crafting material y, and finally 3 crafting materials to make weapon z, then you would have completely original weapons</quote>

Lets just do some really simple math. Lets say there are 10 basic items that can make this metal x, 8 special items that could be used to make material y, and 6 rare items that go into making weapon z... then your math would look like so:

10C3 * 8C2 * 6C2

That is, 10 choose 3 * 8 choose 2 * 6 choose 2 = 50400 unique combinations for weapons. So yes, this would definatly give you a super wide range of unique choices... but the chances that you'll be able to come up with unique abilities/designes/names/etc for all of these in one lifetime is next to zero (unless you take some serious shortcuts).

So... I'm going to go on record as saying that systems like these really need to be modeled out mathematically before even bringing them up for discussion.


As a side note, I love the concept of achilles with an achilles heel. I have several units in a game i'm making that are virtually invulnerable to some types of attacks, but take 3x damage from others. It makes things fun.

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Original post by Cygnus_X
I hate coming in late on discussions like this...

Anyways, back to the original question of:

<quote>say if you combine 5 resources to make metal x, 3 metals to make crafting material y, and finally 3 crafting materials to make weapon z, then you would have completely original weapons</quote>

Lets just do some really simple math. Lets say there are 10 basic items that can make this metal x, 8 special items that could be used to make material y, and 6 rare items that go into making weapon z... then your math would look like so:

10C3 * 8C2 * 6C2

That is, 10 choose 3 * 8 choose 2 * 6 choose 2 = 50400 unique combinations for weapons. So yes, this would definatly give you a super wide range of unique choices... but the chances that you'll be able to come up with unique abilities/designes/names/etc for all of these in one lifetime is next to zero (unless you take some serious shortcuts).

So... I'm going to go on record as saying that systems like these really need to be modeled out mathematically before even bringing them up for discussion.


As a side note, I love the concept of achilles with an achilles heel. I have several units in a game i'm making that are virtually invulnerable to some types of attacks, but take 3x damage from others. It makes things fun.


No, no, no, no. That is what you are mistaking. You don't making every single weapon, basically you just make a list, and the player chooses what the weapon looks like from a list, maybe make a fire sword look like water to trick an opponent, and if that becomes to common make a fire sword actually fire, and confuse them even further, or just make it your favorite style. As you said before, it would be impossible to make every single weapon, just create a useable formula that would work in every case.

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I'm apprehensive about that idea.

First, the aesthetic end of it will be gruesomely cheated when every newbie makes a lousy weapon that looks like it was forged from the love of angels, and the player's inventory will soon be filled with crap that looks like spun crystal.

Second, the attributes will inevitably result in a few combinations that will be exploits. They will wreck the game, like the "level-up spells" do in Morrowind. My Morrowind character can leap tall buildings in a single bound and defeat armies of Deadra with his bare hands. If you patch it out, people will just not install that patch.

The only way to avoid that problem is to pre-emptively nerf the crap out of everything in the game, so that the weapons will be almost indistinguishable from one another, except in the gaudy, crappy appearances that players choose for them.

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Quote:
Original post by sanch3x
Quote:
Original post by ForeverNoobie
Quote:
Original post by yapposai
Weapon history:
The weapons keep some of their history. A weapon used by several powerful PKers in the past might change its change its name to "BloodSword" and be hated by NPCs. A sword used to kill 1000 orcs becomes "Orc Slayer" and have bonus stats against orcs.


I like that idea.


I don't see why the sword would get bonus stats... the blood of your enemies somehow changed the physical properties of the sword? Nah. Have some kind fear effect any orc in a certain radius of the weapon. You know so you have some "Ug burg ug nog nog" ("Damn that's the uber orc slaying sword", for those of you who don't speak fluent orcish)

15% chance to miss or something...


Neither do we see Orcs in the world...

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
I'm apprehensive about that idea.

First, the aesthetic end of it will be gruesomely cheated when every newbie makes a lousy weapon that looks like it was forged from the love of angels, and the player's inventory will soon be filled with crap that looks like spun crystal.

Second, the attributes will inevitably result in a few combinations that will be exploits. They will wreck the game, like the "level-up spells" do in Morrowind. My Morrowind character can leap tall buildings in a single bound and defeat armies of Deadra with his bare hands. If you patch it out, people will just not install that patch.

The only way to avoid that problem is to pre-emptively nerf the crap out of everything in the game, so that the weapons will be almost indistinguishable from one another, except in the gaudy, crappy appearances that players choose for them.


if all the good weapons are equals, and there isn't a single ultimate weapon I don't see the problem with that. I've seen a similar system implemented in Shadowbane and it works fine.

Hammer gives more stun ability,
bow reduces defences,
dagger reduces opponent's attack rating,
axe has reduce defence and 1 stun,
sword ... is practically useless though (unloved child).

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But if all weapons are equals, then the sophisticated crafting and weapon property system is unnecessary, except for vanity. Why not just have one archetypal version of each weapon class and put a continuum of quality on it, from -10 to +10, in order to diversify the field?

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
But if all weapons are equals, then the sophisticated crafting and weapon property system is unnecessary, except for vanity. Why not just have one archetypal version of each weapon class and put a continuum of quality on it, from -10 to +10, in order to diversify the field?


similarly, if all classes are equal(balanced) why differ them into classes? Idea is like the above, some weapons have higher damage but slow attack, are heavier and gives agility penalty because it's harder to navigate.

I should rephrase to "all weapons are divided into teirs, each weapon on each teir should be somewhat equivalent in quality with diverse in attributes (boon, damage, speed, weight, durability, weapon-type)".

in addition "no weapon should have infinite durability, if a weapon's durability reaches 0, it is automatically destroyed. Each weapon has 2 sets of durability rating; current durability/maximum durability (adapted from Shadowbane + Diablo). Repairs will return weapon to its maximum durability, but depending on the skill of the blacksmith the maximum durability of a weapon will suffer, the minimum durability loss is 1."

proabably add "each weapon's damage, attack speed, attack rating, and style is dependent on the weilder's skill. This is to stop weilder from keep changing different types of weapons."

"each weapon has 3 different types of damage, namely: piercing, slashing and bloughning(sp? blunt weapons), some weapons like swords can deal 2 different types of damages but their damage may differ - like sword can deal 100% of maximum damage with slashing, 70% of maximum damage with piercing and 0% with blunt"

we can compliment this with crafting. Say, higher teir weapons have lower % of sucess, regardless of if you got the ingredients right. Thus it is harder to figure out the right formula. Highest teir weapons must consist of several unique materials that must be found from the game world (say special mob drop or something). Cost of making weapons should be roughly 20% higher than NPC vendor's purchase. E.g. a 120g cost sword will have a 100g sell price.

I also like the idea of weapon history, but while the idea is brilliant we should take into account the number of weapons that exist in a game world, and to keep account for each of them will take a huge toll on the server.


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Original post by Takaloy
I also like the idea of weapon history, but while the idea is brilliant we should take into account the number of weapons that exist in a game world, and to keep account for each of them will take a huge toll on the server.


true. hopefully advancements in technology and software will overcome this.

On another track, I always liked FF7's materia system where you can customize your weapon depending on the circumstances. I would rather carry around 1 weapon and manage materia than have several swords for different battles. As a limiting factor, make changing the materia take some time to avoid frequent switching in the middle of a battle. If possible, limit the number of non attached materia that can be carried at one time. (say the materia needs always needs a host ,living or nonliving, otherwise they explode/degrade) special skills can increase the player's tolerance to materia so they can carry more materia) Perhaps a special materia type (Orb of Fate) to handle the history of the weapon? weapons with the Orb lose 1 materia slot permanently but gains the ability to morph (dunno if we should allow continous morphing or just 1 time) depending on the actions of the owner/s. Theis would enable the game to limit the number of History weapons. If a Historical weapon gets destroyed a new ORb of Fate is generated somewhere. Add the condition that not using the Orb/Historical weapon will cause the orb to disappear to avoid a guild/player hoarding all the Weapons/Orbs and not using them.

I also think weapons whould have reltively limited damage potential. The damage inflicted would rely more on the players attributes and materia. A master swordsman with a stick can deal more damage than a newbie with a Master sword because while the sword has more damage potential, the newbie does not have enough skill to effectively use it, the newbie might deal up to 25% of the sword's damage potential. The master can fully utilize the stick's potential+add some damage due to his attributes but the problem would be the stick will break after a few hits since it is lower quality. adding Takaloys example, say the blunt damage depends on your more strength, slice damage depends on skil +strength, pierce depends on skill. high strength,low skill players will be better suited to clubs to maximize blunt damage but have little pierce/slice damage. materia can offset some weaknesses.

The problem with the above idea is the newbies will be weaker than ever. At least in current systems a newbie with a good set of weapons (by buying/etc) can have more of a chance with high level players.


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"I also like the idea of weapon history, but while the idea is brilliant we should take into account the number of weapons that exist in a game world, and to keep account for each of them will take a huge toll on the server"

Actualy, isn't this how they do it now. In WoW each weapon can be slightly customized (enchants) by the player and so each weapon needs to be kept track of.

"But if all weapons are equals, then the sophisticated crafting and weapon property system is unnecessary, except for vanity. Why not just have one archetypal version of each weapon class and put a continuum of quality on it, from -10 to +10, in order to diversify the field?"

Equally balanced does not mean identical stats. A sword that is good against one type of armour but bad against another type of armour could be balanced by a weapon that is bad against the first, but good against the second type of armour. They are balanced, but not identical in use, so both become needed.

The quality could be dependant on the crafter's crafting skill. A better crafter will be able to make better quality products. You could have power of enchantments on an item be based on the quality of the weapon. So, a better quality weapon would have (or be able to gain) more powerful enchant effects.

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