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HunterCyprus93

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HunterCyprus93    126
I created this thread because I want to get a general idea of what gamers and designers both believe could be added to Real Time Strategies set in a Fantasy setting. I'm looking for anything ranging from unit types, landscapes, types of battle map, etc... So if you think your idea is too obscure or bogus, it's not! My friends and I have been working on a project for quite some time now and are finally ready to start putting something substantial together. Your input would be greatly appreciated, and eventually reciprocated with what we've put together! Thanks in advance, HunterCyprus

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lightblade    100
Well, this may not be related to your post, but I wanted to say this for a long time now.

Warcraft Series borrowed a lot(more than 50%) of it's spell and ability ideas from D&D. And my friend keep telling me Warcraft is not D&D...How can it not be D&D if there's the Boot of Elven Kind, Boot of Speed, and Boot of Giant Strength? They are exactly the same name and ability in the 2 games.

Ok, now this part is relative to your post.
If Warcraft can do this, so can you! Get your ideas from D&D and use them as you wish!

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Ezbez    1164
@Lightblade - But is D&D an RTS? You control one unit (unless your the dm) and it really is an RPG. Also, the world in Warcraft is very different than those in D&D. Warcraft plays nothing like a D&D game (both PnP and, say, Neverwinter Nights). Thats like saying that there is a BFG and demons in Sacred (an RPG), so it must be a Doom-clone.

@OP - Stories can really be added to an RTS. Check out Warcraft III and AoE III for examples. Alot of games have pretty minimal stories, and this isn't good. Stories add alot to the game.

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lightblade    100
All games need to be original in order to be successful...

None of the sequel of a game are more successful than it's predecessor.
Originality comes from the world itself, including artwork and design.

For example, spiders had appeared in Fantasy RPG over and over again. Ok! We get it! Spiders are disgusting vermins, can't we use some other disgusting vermins other than spiders? Like cockroaches and centipedes or maybe giant cockroaches and centipedes?

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sanch3x    483
Quote:
Original post by lightblade
For example, spiders had appeared in Fantasy RPG over and over again. Ok! We get it! Spiders are disgusting vermins, can't we use some other disgusting vermins other than spiders? Like cockroaches and centipedes or maybe giant cockroaches and centipedes?


Cockcroaches and centipedes aren't original... heck they've been used a lot in RPGs... Just to name two: Breath of Fire and Final Fantasy.

The FIRST FF had centipedes.

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jpetrie    13162
Quote:

Get your ideas from D&D


...won't this just perpetuate the hum-drum, cliche EGOD (I think I got that acronym right -- "elves, goblins, ogre and dwarves" or something similar is what I'm after here) status quo?

I don't fancy myself a designer, and I don't mean to suggest the impossible (that you come up with a "truly unique" idea that nobody can possibly draw a connection to), but please... the fewer lithe, haughty elves and stout, bearded dwarves a fantasy game has, the better, in my opinion. At least for a while, until nobody's using them anymore.

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Veovis    446
There's an idea I've been toying with; that you don't simply click a button on a building to generate units, but instead you specify roles for your existing units. That's worded poorly, let me explain.

You start the game with a few specialized Builders, who can make and repair structures. They make a House. The House is the only structure which can generate units, they generate simple Citizens. Citizens require lodging though, so if you want more than a few Citizens, you'll have to build more Houses to support them. Citizens (and all your units) also require food, so you build a Farm. But the farm won't produce anything until you assign a Citizen to it, at which point that unit become a specialized Farmer. You also want an army, so you build a Barracks. You can then send groups of Citizens inside the Barracks to train, and out come your new Soldiers.

It's all about using the Citizens you've generated to fill your necessary roles. But not all Citizens need to be converted to something else. Citizens left to their own devices will wander around your town and be assumed to be living out their lives. That means making and spending money, which helps your economy in the form of taxes. So, the more free-willed Citizens you have, the stronger your economy.

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Quote:
Original post by Veovis
There's an idea I've been toying with; that you don't simply click a button on a building to generate units, but instead you specify roles for your existing units. That's worded poorly, let me explain.

You start the game with a few specialized Builders, who can make and repair structures. They make a House. The House is the only structure which can generate units, they generate simple Citizens. Citizens require lodging though, so if you want more than a few Citizens, you'll have to build more Houses to support them. Citizens (and all your units) also require food, so you build a Farm. But the farm won't produce anything until you assign a Citizen to it, at which point that unit become a specialized Farmer. You also want an army, so you build a Barracks. You can then send groups of Citizens inside the Barracks to train, and out come your new Soldiers.

It's all about using the Citizens you've generated to fill your necessary roles. But not all Citizens need to be converted to something else. Citizens left to their own devices will wander around your town and be assumed to be living out their lives. That means making and spending money, which helps your economy in the form of taxes. So, the more free-willed Citizens you have, the stronger your economy.


Except for the latter part, you've pretty much described Settlers. :-)

Hope this helps.

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Sir Sapo    769
Quote:
Original post by Veovis
There's an idea I've been toying with; that you don't simply click a button on a building to generate units, but instead you specify roles for your existing units. That's worded poorly, let me explain.

You start the game with a few specialized Builders, who can make and repair structures. They make a House. The House is the only structure which can generate units, they generate simple Citizens. Citizens require lodging though, so if you want more than a few Citizens, you'll have to build more Houses to support them. Citizens (and all your units) also require food, so you build a Farm. But the farm won't produce anything until you assign a Citizen to it, at which point that unit become a specialized Farmer. You also want an army, so you build a Barracks. You can then send groups of Citizens inside the Barracks to train, and out come your new Soldiers.

It's all about using the Citizens you've generated to fill your necessary roles. But not all Citizens need to be converted to something else. Citizens left to their own devices will wander around your town and be assumed to be living out their lives. That means making and spending money, which helps your economy in the form of taxes. So, the more free-willed Citizens you have, the stronger your economy.


Thats a pretty cool idea

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You should play Stronghold. It's medieval, rather than fantasy, but you get townsfolk, and you have them become farmers and hunters and bakers and millers and brewers and innkeepers, and they go about their business until your population and tech reach a point where you can quarry stone and smith metal and such. Then you start training soldiers, and building forts, and finally an actual castle with catapults and whatnot. I had this one guy (they've all got names and you can follow their careers) who was a baker, but when TSHTF I called him up for military duty and he kicked a ridiculous amount of asses. Then he just went back to his bakery and made bread. He was awesome. Every battle he killed five or six guys.

That game sucked though. There's a reason you don't actually attack castles. You suffer like 40%-80% casualties, and always lose. Then you go back to your crippled economy and mope.

Take a look at Majesty for a neato fantasy world. Individual units actually adventure, like a player would in an RPG. They go out and kill mobs, then spend their money on weapon upgrades and healing potions. It's a much smoother experience, and quite fun, although you can't control the units directly.

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Edtharan    607
One aspect of medieval warfare and economy that is rarly seen in games is that of supply lines. Curently in the games you can harvest resources in one location (say near you main base) and then take 1 unit over near the enemy base and start a new base useing the resources located in your main base.

If you made it so that resources need to be transported (automaticaly?) to the building that was useing them (for construation of the building or the production of a unit), this could add a bit more strategy to the game. Having supply lines to individual units would get too fiddely to manage (even if done automaticaly) so individual units weould not have this (but you may be ok to impliment it for hero units).

Another aspect that might work well in a fanatasy setting is to have combined arms. This would allow a group of units to fight with complimentary weapons. An example would be that units with long weapons (pikes, etc) would be behind the units with shorter reach weapons so that all of them could attack (where as if the short reach weapon units were in the back then they couldn't attack). This is what makes flanking a squad effective as not all the troops could attack.

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Quote:
Original post by Veovis
There's an idea I've been toying with; that you don't simply click a button on a building to generate units, but instead you specify roles for your existing units. That's worded poorly, let me explain.

You start the game with a few specialized Builders, who can make and repair structures. They make a House. The House is the only structure which can generate units, they generate simple Citizens. Citizens require lodging though, so if you want more than a few Citizens, you'll have to build more Houses to support them. Citizens (and all your units) also require food, so you build a Farm. But the farm won't produce anything until you assign a Citizen to it, at which point that unit become a specialized Farmer. You also want an army, so you build a Barracks. You can then send groups of Citizens inside the Barracks to train, and out come your new Soldiers.

Sounds like Battle Realms.

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Horatius83    187
Quote:
Original post by Edtharan
One aspect of medieval warfare and economy that is rarly seen in games is that of supply lines. Curently in the games you can harvest resources in one location (say near you main base) and then take 1 unit over near the enemy base and start a new base useing the resources located in your main base.

If you made it so that resources need to be transported (automaticaly?) to the building that was useing them (for construation of the building or the production of a unit), this could add a bit more strategy to the game. Having supply lines to individual units would get too fiddely to manage (even if done automaticaly) so individual units weould not have this (but you may be ok to impliment it for hero units).

Another aspect that might work well in a fanatasy setting is to have combined arms. This would allow a group of units to fight with complimentary weapons. An example would be that units with long weapons (pikes, etc) would be behind the units with shorter reach weapons so that all of them could attack (where as if the short reach weapon units were in the back then they couldn't attack). This is what makes flanking a squad effective as not all the troops could attack.


I like this idea, I'd especially like the ability to take a small commando unit, maybe some archers or light calvarly and disrupt supply lines, causing the enemies front line troops to be weakened in the process. Above all make sure the AI is good and that the player has control of the units at all times. It's extremely frustrating when your units do suicidal things over and over again (Like medics charging into a major battle because they're faster then the other troops and can get to the waypoint first) You could even make the supply lines issue part of the game mechanics, that is certain factions are more reliant on supplies from the home base while others can forage, or have it where the higher up in the tech tree you are, the more important it is to protect your supply lines.

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HunterCyprus93    126
Wow, thanks guys! Ton of responses so far, and all of them have given me a little something to think about. A lot of people named off some games I have yet to play, but it seems they are worth a look. Currently, I am getting my team to play through some different games to get a feel for what we do and don't like.

@Ezbez - I definitely have to agree on storys being more in-depth in an RTS. Instead of deciding to make a game and add story in after, we are going through and creating our world before, and adding the game to the story.

@Lightblade - Agreed there too. A games success comes from the freshness, regrettably that is difficult nowadays. Everything seems like a re-hash, just like you said with WC and D&D. We hope to go through and instead of creating entirely original ideas (which we found is nigh impossible), find new ways to either change or implement other ideas.

@Jpetrie - I hear you man. The less skinny tree-huggers and fat ale-drinkers there are, the better. Not to say what Tolkien and eventually D&D started isn't good, I love em both. As I said to lightblade, we want to change things up a bit, even if it's not completely new.

@Veovis - You read me like a book. I disagree with the current style of build a unit from scratch. First it makes the game less personal. If I'm going to lead an army against evil (or good), I want to feel like I'm guiding friends and family, not some random guy that I could care less about. The first step to this, I think, is to give them a personal life. Someone else mentioned that this was how Settlers plays and also Battle Realms, so I guess I'll be picking them up sometime and giving them a whirl!

@Iron Chef - I've seen your name in almost every post, heh. Yeah, Stronghold had it going for itself, til you attack a castle! My brother used to kick our butts at that all the time, no questions asked, using horse archers :-/. I do like the economy idea from it though, it is a little more realistic. I may have played Majesty, but I don't remember, it seems to ring a bell though.

@Edtharan - Supply lines are a great idea! Letting your army tromp around w/out having to feed em doesn't make sense to me. You mentioned a supply line for one unit being a little un-workable, which I agree with, so instead of doing single units, like most RTS', I think a Total War approach would work. Since you control groups of units as one unit, it would make more sense, and it would be feasible to put a supply line into the game for those groups.

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Takaloy    133
Quote:
Original post by lightblade
All games need to be original in order to be successful...

None of the sequel of a game are more successful than it's predecessor.
Originality comes from the world itself, including artwork and design.

For example, spiders had appeared in Fantasy RPG over and over again. Ok! We get it! Spiders are disgusting vermins, can't we use some other disgusting vermins other than spiders? Like cockroaches and centipedes or maybe giant cockroaches and centipedes?


I seriously beg to differ.

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sanch3x    483
Quote:
Original post by Takaloy
I seriously beg to differ.


Agreed. I know plenty of sequels that were more successful then the original title. I think that saying all unoriginal games are bound to failure is a pretty broad statement. Success and unoriginality aren't mutually exclusive...

edit: changed my comparison to be more accurate.

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NotAYakk    876
Supply lines...

Fantasy RTS...

Mana!

Your supply lines could be access to your mana-grid.

Armies cut off from your mana-grid would have extremely slow mana regeneration. (they would only be able to draw limited amounts of mana from the local area, and they would be competing for this mana with all of the other local units).

Armies that go out to attack either have to carry their mana with them, or keep a supply line to their base secure and have mana flow through it.

Toss in different types of mana, which different types of units consume...

Even building/upgrading units might require mana, possibly of a different kind.

Mana would flow along ley-lines. Supplying a base with the mana it needs would either require sending mana-storage units there (the caravan solution) or setting up a ley-line with enough capacity to feed the base.

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a simple implementation of supply lines for troops would borrow from Dune or Command and Conquer.

Instead of harvesters mining spice or minerals you would have supply wagons(or whatever fit your theme) supplying up at your base and then trucking the supplies to your troops. Like the harvesters you would want to automate it to a degree.

A simple breakdown of an implementation would be:

_the ability to attach units to the supply wagon( as guards)

_assign units as "captains" and have the supply wagon automatically hunt down and resupply any captain unit as well as his group.

_units must keep a list of their ammo, and perhaps start to fire more slowly or lose morale as the ammo is closer to exhaustion, culminating in units retreating back to base or until resupplied.

_a morale system.

_a units ability to resupply at a resource station without a supply wagon.




level 2 implementation:

_unique supply stations to shorten supply lines.

_one time use special troop abilities that must be recharged by resupplying.

_the ability to capture enemy supply wagons and absorb the resources.

_elite type units able to use weapon and ammos of the defeated enemy, to simulate the ability to act behind enemy lines and be self-maintaining.


properly implemented these changes should lean your rts to a more defensive posture. the TANK RUSH strategy would have to be quickly decisive in order to be viable, and the likely-hood of siege would be increased.

as an invader moved towards an enemy base his supply lines would naturally stretch and the defenders would shorten. this would simulate a limited form of entrenchment, and would more closely model actual combat.



Would it be fun? That's the more important question but it definitely has possibilities.

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Takaloy    133
probably the whole idea of supply resources is getting kind of old... something novel will be interesting. back of my mind, something along the lines of today's economics as compared to the medieval's "supply line system".

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Deleter    169
if you are aiming for original, do not have elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, wizards/sorcerors, warriors, or rogues. Heck, if you want an "original" idea (gad I hope someone hasn't done this already) take a quote by one of the big SF authors (I believe it was Clarke) "Really advanced technology would be indecipherable from magic" I think depending on what way you go with this, you may get something totally unique.

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Edtharan    607
A few years ago I tossed around the idea of having units is an RTS based on a Genetic Algorithm (GA). That is their stats (health, speed, damage, etc) would be based on a simple GA. The player would not so much as upgrade their units, but evolve them (this was through magic).

This game is still in the theoretical design stage (and I am not currently planing on taking it further). In the game each player had a set of home realms that they could build their base on. They could then connect a "Rift Gate" to antoher realm and fight another player(s) for it (although not all connections would be for conflict, but could be for trade or exchange of "breeding stock" as well). The winner would get the realm and be able to add it to their home realm. There was a limit to the number of realms that a player could have, so they could choose to discard one they already had (which would go to the next player and so on untill the last discarded a realm and it was lost). Realms could give certain advantages (but only while you had them) and had (semi) limited resources (some werer limited like metals and others were renewable like food).

The players could "breed" creatures to produce offspring that had a combination of their genes. These genes would code for the abilities and special abilities that a unit could have as well as its appearance.

You oculd have supply units that would give supply to any units within a certain radius of them, but they had limited stock so you would need to return them to your home bases to restock them and then return them to where they were needed.

The GA for the units were based on a "zero sum", where if you bred an increase in one stat others would have to be reduced, this also applied to special abilities (if a unit had lots of special abilities you would have lower stats).

For example if S is the strength of the unit (effects melee damage) and D is the dexterity of the unit (effects the ranged weapon accuracy) then a section of the genome could look like: S,S,S,S,S,S,D,D,S,D,D,S,S,D,D,D,D. This would give a Strength of 9 and a Dexterity of 8. You could mutate some of the strength into dex to increase the dex of the unit at the cost of strength, and ofcourse ther would be more than just strength and dex (HP, move speed, visual range, intelegence, mana, special abilities, etc).

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Takaloy    133
Quote:
Original post by Deleter
if you are aiming for original, do not have elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, wizards/sorcerors, warriors, or rogues. Heck, if you want an "original" idea (gad I hope someone hasn't done this already) take a quote by one of the big SF authors (I believe it was Clarke) "Really advanced technology would be indecipherable from magic" I think depending on what way you go with this, you may get something totally unique.


are you describing StarCraft? lol...

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robert4818    138
A few ideas for Fantasy RTS.

Make it truly 3d
Go all out with units, (Dragons, gnomes, Giants, Etc.)
Have units fight with bonus's negatives from terrain.
Give races with magic the ability to dynamically alter the terrain, (Desert patches, raise hills, create valleys, etc.)

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Deleter    169
Quote:
Original post by Takaloy
Quote:
Original post by Deleter
if you are aiming for original, do not have elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, wizards/sorcerors, warriors, or rogues. Heck, if you want an "original" idea (gad I hope someone hasn't done this already) take a quote by one of the big SF authors (I believe it was Clarke) "Really advanced technology would be indecipherable from magic" I think depending on what way you go with this, you may get something totally unique.


are you describing StarCraft? lol...

um, not in the least. If you are talking about the Protoss, they are very technologically defined. I can see where you are coming from, but let me explain more of what I was talking about.

If you look at magic in the fantasy genre, it is typically used by using odd word combinations or sounds or gestures of different sorts. People do not study it in an attempt to create more, so much as to discover more and see what it can do. They understand that saying the words has a certain effect, yet they do not understand why it has this effect. In other words, they do not have control over the magic, moreso a wizard is like a small ship in a vast ocean. He has reason to hope his efforts will be successful, but he is far from being certain and completely in control.

Now how this relates to that quote: At some point, technology will be so fully integrated into humanity that we no longer understand it as a seperate entity (Like the protoss do), but rather as a part of our lives. Where it actually came from and the details of how it works will be lost to time, as we don't think to preserve it any more than we think to preserve society; they are both simply there. However, as time goes on, certain elements of that techonology will break down, but people will have no idea why as all technological knowledge is gone. Therefore a lot of mysticism and ritual will be injected into the use of technology. At this point, we have pretty much arrived at the description of magic. With the wizards who know how to use the magic, i.e. technology, the obscure words and gestures that activate processes whose technological identity has long been lost, and the vague and uncertain understanding of it.

Obviously this is just one take on that idea, you could also say that there are those in charge who retain the knowledge of technology and thus maintain it. But the above description is more along the lines of what I was thinking of when I posted the above quote. The Protoss' technology is indeed somewhat akin to magic, however there are many indicators that it is still a seperate identity in thought, if even a highly depended on and quite necessary one.

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Edtharan    607
Quote:
Original post by robert4818
Make it truly 3d


And have the flying units actually fly in 3D, not just a 2D plain above the ground. One method is to break the world up into cubes (like squares for the ground) and use these for positioning.

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