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OpenGL Radeon 9600 Pro vs. GeForce 2

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OK, this might be not the correct forum, sorry if so (didn't really know where to post). I've had a GeForce 2 for like 5 years now (not really sure, my comp is quite old) and I'm OK with this card, works flawlessly, doesn't consume much power or generate heat. Yet, it's native support seems to be only for DirectX 7, which is very old now, and in OpenGL it doesn't support shaders. I've got an opportunity to buy ATi Radeon 9600 Pro cheaply (~55$, take into account that here everything is more expensive), and I wonder if it's worth it. It's probably one of the best cards for my motherboard (some old MSI with VIA chipset, universal AGP, or so it seems). Now, it comes down to companies. Has it been a GeForce, I'd buy it for sure. Yet, as it's ATi, I wonder. How much trouble will it cause me? I can bear somewhat annoying drivers (that require .Net), but ATi doesn't seem to be very friendly with OpenGL. It should support Shaders 2.0, but I don't use any shaders yet, and ain't planning that for some time now. From what I've heard, ATi cards lack some basic extensions (even ARB ones) that even older nVidia cards have. Just how much trouble will I have with ATi when programming OpenGL (not extremely advanced stuff)? Should I stay on nVidia, or get this card (it should support some new stuff GeForce 2 doesn't like framebuffer object)? Any help will be appreciated.

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Just get the 9600. It will probably offer more features (including shaders) then a GeForce 2.

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I've done a massive amount of OpenGL programming on a 9500 Pro (which is pretty similar)--including some fairly sophisticated GLSL. I really doubt you'll have any trouble with it.

And in any case, the 9x00s are VASTLY superior to NVIDIA's cards from the same generation (the GeForce FX).

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In my laptop I've got an ATI mobility 9000 and I'd swear it runs OpenGL programs faster than DirectX. I'm not familiar with the specs of the card (support of either library) and can't measure between two different programs - but short story, I love my ATi and I'll never go back to nVidia now. Of course, I'm still running a GeForce FX 5200 on my desktop, that might have something to do with it :P

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I'm running a 6800 Ultra 256MB in my laptop and I'll never go back to desktops...

oh, and my point is ATI 9800 Pro that I used to have had heating issues and random crashes. So stay away from it, unless you can find stable drivers, which ATI is not well known for.

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Quote:
Original post by oconnellseanm
So stay away from it, unless you can find stable drivers, which ATI is not well known for.


FUD.

The 9600 (DirectX9,SM2) is vasly superior to the Geforce2 (DirectX7,FF) and to the competing NVIDIA GeforceFX generation.

I have previously used a 9600XT (for almost 2 years) and have not had any trouble with ATi drivers or OpenGL (my main OpenGL dev machines are running ATi cards).

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i'm downright disgusted with ati's software, but the drivers are much better than they used to be. i wouldn't worry about any real problems using opengl with an ati card. any problems with opengl/direct3d/nvidia/ati are usually a result of the programmer doing something wrong.

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I've got an ATi something or other in my PowerBook and it seems to run my GL stuff fine. Never had one on Windows except my old 8 MB Rage Mobility Pro in 1999, and that wasn't too bad.

Though, I like Nvidia better. My 7800GT is like my best friend. I feed it triangles and shaders and it's like "Can't you do better than that? Come on!"

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I still have a Radeon 9200. I have tested Irrlicht's demos that come with the SDK, and the only real difference between the OpenGL and DX3D renderers on my card is that in the OpenGL side, it doesn't support parralax mapping, and DX3D does. I think that has to do with that DX had the shaders first, not so much with DX better than GL on my card. Besides that feature, the Frames Per Second on the same demo tends to be the same for either render system. The game I'm making has a few good particle systems and the models for the asteroids are over 3000 tris each, and it still keeps over 60 FPS with too many roids on screen. So don't ditch the ATI. Think though, the 9600 is much newer than mine, I'm sure GL could handle the parralax mapping on that one. So yeah, at that good of a deal, take it.

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Thanks everyone for the input. I guess there isn't much to lose on the upgrade :D

Now, I still would like to know what ATi doesn't support.
On my dad's comp there is X800 GTO2, so I compared the extensions it supports to the ones GeForce 2 supports.

Out of ARB extensions, no pixel buffer object (not even EXT, and GeForce 2 got it as ARB), texture rectangle only as EXT (GeForce 2 got it as ARB), and no GL_ARB_imaging (what is it?).

Out of EXT, no Cg shaders :( (I wonder how GeForce 2 could have Cg)
That is, GLSL only?
Also, texture lod (not lod bias) only as SGIS (GeForce 2 has as EXT as well), no shared texture palette and no paletted texture. No PBO again.

To summarize, no PBO, texture palettes, Cg shaders and imaging. Never used anything of these, are they important?

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I was a bit surprised for ARB_imaging and PBO missing (there are pretty common extensions). So I checked in the OpenGL viewer extension database (http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/) and 9600 is reported as having these extensions.

For Cg shaders, I heard that there are ways to make them running with ATI hardware but I never tried (GLSL is perfect for me).

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Well, according to Delphi3d 9600 doesn't support imaging and PBOs.

By the way, could you explain what is imaging (never heard of it), and what are PBOs used for (yes, like VBO for pixel data, but really what does it result in? Offscreen rendering?).

Edit: In the thread about ATi and texture rectangle, they say it isn't accessable from GLSL (indeed 9600 doesn't seem to have ARB_texture_rectangle). Is that really so? No NPOT textures for me? Or could this (or even better real NPOT) be added later in drivers?

[Edited by - Seroja on March 16, 2006 7:45:26 AM]

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Quote:
Original post by nts
Quote:
Original post by oconnellseanm
So stay away from it, unless you can find stable drivers, which ATI is not well known for.


FUD.


Actually, I've had similar problems with my 9800. It's OK most of the time, but if I try to play a newish game or turn up the LOD on my own stuff it locks the computer unless it's VERY well cooled. I bought a better cooler for it, but it still has it's moments unless I have all my fans on full. I assume oconnellseanm speaks from experience, as do I. No FUD here.

I'd still advise Seroja to go with the 9600. They're good cards and the 3 or 4 of my friends who have them haven't had the heat/crash issue at all.

nts, you say you've used 9600s but have you used a 9800 for any period of time?

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Quote:
Original post by mrbastard
nts, you say you've used 9600s but have you used a 9800 for any period of time?


No I have not extensively used 9800s (not at all with newer games) but I doubt that all of them overheat and lock up, otherwise I suspect that hardware sites would be all over it. There are also a few different reasons a card would overheat, including bad case ventilation.

Just out of interest what temperatures are you getting for it? I think up to 60 (under load) for that generation would be fine.

I was calling FUD on his comment on the stable drivers and not his 9800 overheating. I have not had driver trouble with ATi cards since the 9xxx series, the 7xxx ones (at the time) did have some problems though.

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In French we have a good proverb: "The grass always looks more green on the other side of the fence".

I develop daily with a varied set of ATI and NVidia cards. Some have advantages/drawbacks, of course, but in the end i haven't noticed a higher amount of problems on ATI vs NVidia, and that includes drivers (which are pretty buggy on both sides). Last month, my 7800 GTX had overheating problems. I installed a new fan in the case to help and haven't had any problem since. Should i have blamed NVidia for that ?

Y.

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Quote:
Original post by nts
There are also a few different reasons a card would overheat, including bad case ventilation.

You're probably right, but it still seems more prone to overheating than most cards. That said, at the time I went for it because the nvidia alternatives had massive loud fans. Maybe I should have gone for the noisey but well cooled option.

Quote:
Original post by nts
Just out of interest what temperatures are you getting for it?

I have no idea. I don't think it has a heat sensor of it's own (though I vaguely remember that another 9800 variant does) and I've no thermometer to test it with. As Ysaneya implies, it may not be the 9800 that locks the PC, but the heat it generates causes something else (probably CPU) to overheat.

Quote:
Original post by nts
I was calling FUD on his comment on the stable drivers and not his 9800 overheating.

Fair enough. I haven't had any particularly bad experiences with ATI drivers in the last few years. They're not great, but I haven't used a recent nvidia card/driver to compare them to.

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I have a Radeon 9600 and have had absolutely zero problems with it. It performs as expected. It's becoming a little to slow for my tastes, but other than that it's a winner.

I had a radeon 7000 something in the past and I do remember those drivers being a pain to install, but that was at least three years ago.

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About the OpenGL extensions ;

The imaging subset is a set of functionnality for manipulating images (filters, convolution, histogram,...). It has been in the spec for a long time ago (I don't remember when it appeared) and most cards do support it.

As far as I know, PBO are mainly designed for asynchronous pixel data transfer between the CPU and the GPU. Before PBO, you used glReadPixels which needs the driver's render queue to be flushed. When you issue a glReadPixel aimed at a PBO, the driver can postpone the readback until you access the PBO, therefore allowing asynchronous data transfer. I can think of situations where it could prove very usefull but I have never encountered any.
For the time being, I think most applications can avoid needing reading data from the graphic card. In the near future, with the development of GPGPU, transfering data back from the GPU to the CPU will be more needed and this extension could prove very usefull.

Offscreen rendering will typically use EXT_framebuffer_object for rendering and eventually PBO for reading back the datas.

Delphi3D database is not that up to date. You chould check the driver history to be sure.

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      Static variables cannot be changed once a resource is bound to the variable. They are bound directly to the shader object. For instance, a shadow map texture is not expected to change after it is created, so it can be bound directly to the shader:
      PixelShader->GetShaderVariable( "g_tex2DShadowMap" )->Set( pShadowMapSRV ); Mutable and dynamic variables are bound via a new Shader Resource Binding object (SRB) that is created by the pipeline state (IPipelineState::CreateShaderResourceBinding()):
      m_pPSO->CreateShaderResourceBinding(&m_pSRB); Note that an SRB is only compatible with the pipeline state it was created from. SRB object inherits all static bindings from shaders in the pipeline, but is not allowed to change them.
      Mutable resources can only be set once for every instance of a shader resource binding. Such resources are intended to define specific material properties. For instance, a diffuse texture for a specific material is not expected to change once the material is defined and can be set right after the SRB object has been created:
      m_pSRB->GetVariable(SHADER_TYPE_PIXEL, "tex2DDiffuse")->Set(pDiffuseTexSRV); In some cases it is necessary to bind a new resource to a variable every time a draw command is invoked. Such variables should be labeled as dynamic, which will allow setting them multiple times through the same SRB object:
      m_pSRB->GetVariable(SHADER_TYPE_VERTEX, "cbRandomAttribs")->Set(pRandomAttrsCB); Under the hood, the engine pre-allocates descriptor tables for static and mutable resources when an SRB objcet is created. Space for dynamic resources is dynamically allocated at run time. Static and mutable resources are thus more efficient and should be used whenever possible.
      As you can see, Diligent Engine does not expose low-level details of how resources are bound to shader variables. One reason for this is that these details are very different for various APIs. The other reason is that using low-level binding methods is extremely error-prone: it is very easy to forget to bind some resource, or bind incorrect resource such as bind a buffer to the variable that is in fact a texture, especially during shader development when everything changes fast. Diligent Engine instead relies on shader reflection system to automatically query the list of all shader variables. Grouping variables based on three types mentioned above allows the engine to create optimized layout and take heavy lifting of matching resources to API-specific resource location, register or descriptor in the table.
      This post gives more details about the resource binding model in Diligent Engine.
      Setting the Pipeline State and Committing Shader Resources
      Before any draw or compute command can be invoked, the pipeline state needs to be bound to the context:
      m_pContext->SetPipelineState(m_pPSO); Under the hood, the engine sets the internal PSO object in the command list or calls all the required native API functions to properly configure all pipeline stages.
      The next step is to bind all required shader resources to the GPU pipeline, which is accomplished by IDeviceContext::CommitShaderResources() method:
      m_pContext->CommitShaderResources(m_pSRB, COMMIT_SHADER_RESOURCES_FLAG_TRANSITION_RESOURCES); The method takes a pointer to the shader resource binding object and makes all resources the object holds available for the shaders. In the case of D3D12, this only requires setting appropriate descriptor tables in the command list. For older APIs, this typically requires setting all resources individually.
      Next-generation APIs require the application to track the state of every resource and explicitly inform the system about all state transitions. For instance, if a texture was used as render target before, while the next draw command is going to use it as shader resource, a transition barrier needs to be executed. Diligent Engine does the heavy lifting of state tracking.  When CommitShaderResources() method is called with COMMIT_SHADER_RESOURCES_FLAG_TRANSITION_RESOURCES flag, the engine commits and transitions resources to correct states at the same time. Note that transitioning resources does introduce some overhead. The engine tracks state of every resource and it will not issue the barrier if the state is already correct. But checking resource state is an overhead that can sometimes be avoided. The engine provides IDeviceContext::TransitionShaderResources() method that only transitions resources:
      m_pContext->TransitionShaderResources(m_pPSO, m_pSRB); In some scenarios it is more efficient to transition resources once and then only commit them.
      Invoking Draw Command
      The final step is to set states that are not part of the PSO, such as render targets, vertex and index buffers. Diligent Engine uses Direct3D11-syle API that is translated to other native API calls under the hood:
      ITextureView *pRTVs[] = {m_pRTV}; m_pContext->SetRenderTargets(_countof( pRTVs ), pRTVs, m_pDSV); // Clear render target and depth buffer const float zero[4] = {0, 0, 0, 0}; m_pContext->ClearRenderTarget(nullptr, zero); m_pContext->ClearDepthStencil(nullptr, CLEAR_DEPTH_FLAG, 1.f); // Set vertex and index buffers IBuffer *buffer[] = {m_pVertexBuffer}; Uint32 offsets[] = {0}; Uint32 strides[] = {sizeof(MyVertex)}; m_pContext->SetVertexBuffers(0, 1, buffer, strides, offsets, SET_VERTEX_BUFFERS_FLAG_RESET); m_pContext->SetIndexBuffer(m_pIndexBuffer, 0); Different native APIs use various set of function to execute draw commands depending on command details (if the command is indexed, instanced or both, what offsets in the source buffers are used etc.). For instance, there are 5 draw commands in Direct3D11 and more than 9 commands in OpenGL with something like glDrawElementsInstancedBaseVertexBaseInstance not uncommon. Diligent Engine hides all details with single IDeviceContext::Draw() method that takes takes DrawAttribs structure as an argument. The structure members define all attributes required to perform the command (primitive topology, number of vertices or indices, if draw call is indexed or not, if draw call is instanced or not, if draw call is indirect or not, etc.). For example:
      DrawAttribs attrs; attrs.IsIndexed = true; attrs.IndexType = VT_UINT16; attrs.NumIndices = 36; attrs.Topology = PRIMITIVE_TOPOLOGY_TRIANGLE_LIST; pContext->Draw(attrs); For compute commands, there is IDeviceContext::DispatchCompute() method that takes DispatchComputeAttribs structure that defines compute grid dimension.
      Source Code
      Full engine source code is available on GitHub and is free to use. The repository contains two samples, asteroids performance benchmark and example Unity project that uses Diligent Engine in native plugin.
      AntTweakBar sample is Diligent Engine’s “Hello World” example.

       
      Atmospheric scattering sample is a more advanced example. It demonstrates how Diligent Engine can be used to implement various rendering tasks: loading textures from files, using complex shaders, rendering to multiple render targets, using compute shaders and unordered access views, etc.

      Asteroids performance benchmark is based on this demo developed by Intel. It renders 50,000 unique textured asteroids and allows comparing performance of Direct3D11 and Direct3D12 implementations. Every asteroid is a combination of one of 1000 unique meshes and one of 10 unique textures.

      Finally, there is an example project that shows how Diligent Engine can be integrated with Unity.

      Future Work
      The engine is under active development. It currently supports Windows desktop, Universal Windows and Android platforms. Direct3D11, Direct3D12, OpenGL/GLES backends are now feature complete. Vulkan backend is coming next, and support for more platforms is planned.
    • By reenigne
      For those that don't know me. I am the individual who's two videos are listed here under setup for https://wiki.libsdl.org/Tutorials
      I also run grhmedia.com where I host the projects and code for the tutorials I have online.
      Recently, I received a notice from youtube they will be implementing their new policy in protecting video content as of which I won't be monetized till I meat there required number of viewers and views each month.

      Frankly, I'm pretty sick of youtube. I put up a video and someone else learns from it and puts up another video and because of the way youtube does their placement they end up with more views.
      Even guys that clearly post false information such as one individual who said GLEW 2.0 was broken because he didn't know how to compile it. He in short didn't know how to modify the script he used because he didn't understand make files and how the requirements of the compiler and library changes needed some different flags.

      At the end of the month when they implement this I will take down the content and host on my own server purely and it will be a paid system and or patreon. 

      I get my videos may be a bit dry, I generally figure people are there to learn how to do something and I rather not waste their time. 
      I used to also help people for free even those coming from the other videos. That won't be the case any more. I used to just take anyone emails and work with them my email is posted on the site.

      I don't expect to get the required number of subscribers in that time or increased views. Even if I did well it wouldn't take care of each reoccurring month.
      I figure this is simpler and I don't plan on putting some sort of exorbitant fee for a monthly subscription or the like.
      I was thinking on the lines of a few dollars 1,2, and 3 and the larger subscription gets you assistance with the content in the tutorials if needed that month.
      Maybe another fee if it is related but not directly in the content. 
      The fees would serve to cut down on the number of people who ask for help and maybe encourage some of the people to actually pay attention to what is said rather than do their own thing. That actually turns out to be 90% of the issues. I spent 6 hours helping one individual last week I must have asked him 20 times did you do exactly like I said in the video even pointed directly to the section. When he finally sent me a copy of the what he entered I knew then and there he had not. I circled it and I pointed out that wasn't what I said to do in the video. I didn't tell him what was wrong and how I knew that way he would go back and actually follow what it said to do. He then reported it worked. Yea, no kidding following directions works. But hey isn't alone and well its part of the learning process.

      So the point of this isn't to be a gripe session. I'm just looking for a bit of feed back. Do you think the fees are unreasonable?
      Should I keep the youtube channel and do just the fees with patreon or do you think locking the content to my site and require a subscription is an idea.

      I'm just looking at the fact it is unrealistic to think youtube/google will actually get stuff right or that youtube viewers will actually bother to start looking for more accurate videos. 
    • By Balma Alparisi
      i got error 1282 in my code.
      sf::ContextSettings settings; settings.majorVersion = 4; settings.minorVersion = 5; settings.attributeFlags = settings.Core; sf::Window window; window.create(sf::VideoMode(1600, 900), "Texture Unit Rectangle", sf::Style::Close, settings); window.setActive(true); window.setVerticalSyncEnabled(true); glewInit(); GLuint shaderProgram = createShaderProgram("FX/Rectangle.vss", "FX/Rectangle.fss"); float vertex[] = { -0.5f,0.5f,0.0f, 0.0f,0.0f, -0.5f,-0.5f,0.0f, 0.0f,1.0f, 0.5f,0.5f,0.0f, 1.0f,0.0f, 0.5,-0.5f,0.0f, 1.0f,1.0f, }; GLuint indices[] = { 0,1,2, 1,2,3, }; GLuint vao; glGenVertexArrays(1, &vao); glBindVertexArray(vao); GLuint vbo; glGenBuffers(1, &vbo); glBindBuffer(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, vbo); glBufferData(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, sizeof(vertex), vertex, GL_STATIC_DRAW); GLuint ebo; glGenBuffers(1, &ebo); glBindBuffer(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, ebo); glBufferData(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, sizeof(indices), indices,GL_STATIC_DRAW); glVertexAttribPointer(0, 3, GL_FLOAT, false, sizeof(float) * 5, (void*)0); glEnableVertexAttribArray(0); glVertexAttribPointer(1, 2, GL_FLOAT, false, sizeof(float) * 5, (void*)(sizeof(float) * 3)); glEnableVertexAttribArray(1); GLuint texture[2]; glGenTextures(2, texture); glActiveTexture(GL_TEXTURE0); glBindTexture(GL_TEXTURE_2D, texture[0]); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_WRAP_S, GL_CLAMP_TO_EDGE); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_WRAP_T, GL_CLAMP_TO_EDGE); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_MAG_FILTER, GL_LINEAR); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_MIN_FILTER, GL_LINEAR); sf::Image* imageOne = new sf::Image; bool isImageOneLoaded = imageOne->loadFromFile("Texture/container.jpg"); if (isImageOneLoaded) { glTexImage2D(GL_TEXTURE_2D, 0, GL_RGBA, imageOne->getSize().x, imageOne->getSize().y, 0, GL_RGBA, GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE, imageOne->getPixelsPtr()); glGenerateMipmap(GL_TEXTURE_2D); } delete imageOne; glActiveTexture(GL_TEXTURE1); glBindTexture(GL_TEXTURE_2D, texture[1]); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_WRAP_S, GL_CLAMP_TO_EDGE); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_WRAP_T, GL_CLAMP_TO_EDGE); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_MAG_FILTER, GL_LINEAR); glTexParameteri(GL_TEXTURE_2D, GL_TEXTURE_MIN_FILTER, GL_LINEAR); sf::Image* imageTwo = new sf::Image; bool isImageTwoLoaded = imageTwo->loadFromFile("Texture/awesomeface.png"); if (isImageTwoLoaded) { glTexImage2D(GL_TEXTURE_2D, 0, GL_RGBA, imageTwo->getSize().x, imageTwo->getSize().y, 0, GL_RGBA, GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE, imageTwo->getPixelsPtr()); glGenerateMipmap(GL_TEXTURE_2D); } delete imageTwo; glUniform1i(glGetUniformLocation(shaderProgram, "inTextureOne"), 0); glUniform1i(glGetUniformLocation(shaderProgram, "inTextureTwo"), 1); GLenum error = glGetError(); std::cout << error << std::endl; sf::Event event; bool isRunning = true; while (isRunning) { while (window.pollEvent(event)) { if (event.type == event.Closed) { isRunning = false; } } glClear(GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT); if (isImageOneLoaded && isImageTwoLoaded) { glActiveTexture(GL_TEXTURE0); glBindTexture(GL_TEXTURE_2D, texture[0]); glActiveTexture(GL_TEXTURE1); glBindTexture(GL_TEXTURE_2D, texture[1]); glUseProgram(shaderProgram); } glBindVertexArray(vao); glDrawElements(GL_TRIANGLES, 6, GL_UNSIGNED_INT, nullptr); glBindVertexArray(0); window.display(); } glDeleteVertexArrays(1, &vao); glDeleteBuffers(1, &vbo); glDeleteBuffers(1, &ebo); glDeleteProgram(shaderProgram); glDeleteTextures(2,texture); return 0; } and this is the vertex shader
      #version 450 core layout(location=0) in vec3 inPos; layout(location=1) in vec2 inTexCoord; out vec2 TexCoord; void main() { gl_Position=vec4(inPos,1.0); TexCoord=inTexCoord; } and the fragment shader
      #version 450 core in vec2 TexCoord; uniform sampler2D inTextureOne; uniform sampler2D inTextureTwo; out vec4 FragmentColor; void main() { FragmentColor=mix(texture(inTextureOne,TexCoord),texture(inTextureTwo,TexCoord),0.2); } I was expecting awesomeface.png on top of container.jpg

    • By khawk
      We've just released all of the source code for the NeHe OpenGL lessons on our Github page at https://github.com/gamedev-net/nehe-opengl. code - 43 total platforms, configurations, and languages are included.
      Now operated by GameDev.net, NeHe is located at http://nehe.gamedev.net where it has been a valuable resource for developers wanting to learn OpenGL and graphics programming.

      View full story
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