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abstractimmersion

Million Dollar Ideas about MMORPG permadeath

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1. Basically, the character is dead, but the new character doesn't start at level one. For character stats/skills/levels, there are thresholds that are reached that allow bonuses in character creation. For example: --Getting a characters blacksmith skill to 25% allows the player to create a character with 15% blacksmith skill --Increasing a character's perception by 3 during play allows creation of character with +1 perception --Leveling a character up to level 40 lets a player creat a character who starts at level 30 and etc. The player can collect creation bonuses from many stats/classes/paths in order to experiment with different mid to high level characters as well. 2. If a character has a house with 5000 gold and some nice swords secured inside, and dies, he can pass that on to his own newly created character, or any other player.

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Remember how on diablo 2 you could play on hardcore? If you died then your charactor was deleted. This cause many complaints about lagged deaths and such, even with the ability to not play on hardcore.
I wonder how ticked of someone in your game would be when they first realize that every time it lags they have to recreate a charactor. Just pointing out the lag prob and all.

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Idea #1 looks a lot like losing abilities when you die, with more clicking and needing to rebuild your friends list.

Idea #2 is neat, but it doesn't get away from the horrific loss of everything the player's gained in terms of identity and excellence.

As long as character advancement is the bread and butter of MMO gaming, the destruction of that character will ruin the game. The problem is that death in an MMO is either so earth-shattering that the player may as well quit (permadeath) or so trivial that nobody even remembers how many times they've died and been resurrected, good as new. EVE is my MMO, and I think it handles death in a novel and effective way, so I'll describe it here. It's basically an inversion of your idea #2, since you lose a lot of worldly possessions, but your character is preserved.

EVE includes two levels of "death": Ship destruction results in the ejection of the escape pod, which can then be targetted and destroyed. When you get podded, your clone is activated, and it has all the skills you've invested training time in, but if the clone isn't up-to-date you can lose some skills. As another side-effect of being podded, you lose all the implants and hardwirings that were installed on your previous clone. Advanced implants are worth more than battleships, and it's a devastating loss.

EVE avoids trivializing death by making ship destruction a costly and painful experience. Losing a big ship sets you back heavily, and if it's one of your primary ships, kitted out with rare equipment, it can really sting. Player enemies will steal the wreckage, but if you're killed by mobs, you can often go back and salvage much of your loadout.

EVE avoids the other extreme by making pod-death pretty rare. The pod, though defenseless, can warp out faster than most ships can acquire a lock on it, so unless you get jumped by a half-dozen determined assassins who secure the exits and use scan probes to find your deep space safe spots, you'll be able to dock and preserve your implants before they perform the coup de grace. NPC mobs never podkill.

This works out well, because players are reluctant to risk their assets for fear of losing them needlessly, but you can be on the front lines of a fight, expecting to be destroyed, without sacrificing everything you've worked for.

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
EVE includes two levels of "death": Ship destruction results in the ejection of the escape pod, which can then be targetted and destroyed. When you get podded, your clone is activated, and it has all the skills you've invested training time in, but if the clone isn't up-to-date you can lose some skills. As another side-effect of being podded, you lose all the implants and hardwirings that were installed on your previous clone. Advanced implants are worth more than battleships, and it's a devastating loss.

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looks a lot like losing abilities when you die


Yes it does.

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with more clicking and needing to rebuild your friends list.


I'd say mixing and matching whatever bonuses and skills a player had acquired would be part of the fun, but I suppose if you look at it that way, "clicking" is part of sting of death. Friend list? Link to the account, not the character.

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As long as character advancement is the bread and butter of MMO gaming, the destruction of that character will ruin the game.


I would say the advancement is the bread and butter, not the character itself, for most players. The hardcore RPer's are going to mourn their alter egos, but most guild thrashers aren't attached to their character as much as their earned skills. The optimizing player will play aggressively after earning a bonus, but as he gets nearer to the next threshold, he'll be more conservative. Actually, that's probably how everyone would play.

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Idea #2 is neat, but it doesn't get away from the horrific loss of everything the player's gained in terms of identity and excellence.


You would lose the identity, but that's the sting. Excellence is penalized, but one retains core abilities. You can still be a swordsman, you're just the swordsman you were 5 hours of play earlier. Or 1 hour earlier, if you're a noob swordsman. Or 10-20, if you're leet.

The identity destruction doesn't have to be that intense for long term game relationships, like being a member of a guild or company. Player loses character Roland the Paladin. Player brings Roland's brother, Johnny, to fight for the guild.


What I really like about this is that you can acquire varied skills and combine them in different ways. You've played a weaving wizard, but he dies, and you don't feel like jumping back onto that path. You start playing a spellcasting archer (using your acquired magical skills for support as you build up archery skills), and he dies. You like the archer thing, so you start playing a weaving archer, knowing if you want you can go back to casting spells at nearly the proficiency of your original wizard.

It's all about how to make death sting, if you think it should at all. This is just another variation, but I'd play this one.

Of course we all design based on what we'd like to play. My ideal game is something like Final Fantasy Tactics, where the fun consists of mixing and matching skills and equipment on your characters: your ninja/theif can fight the next battle as a gun-wielding knight, if you've learned all the required skills.

This system wouldn't be good for people who can't play the game unless they are playing as Dylan the Dwarf, although that's not to say they couldn't rebuild Dylan the Dwarf and play him as if he'd never died.

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But don't MMO addicts need the ability to look out over the broad expanse of their achievements and measure themselves against other players? Won't they stop shelling out if they can't perceive progress in their account? Won't they stop taking risks when that gamble can dig past their "surface" character and harm their underlying progress bar of advancement?

Your idea is a good one, just like so many other permadeath ideas are good ones, but it is predicated on an assessment of the player mentality that I simply can't accept. I think we need that progress bar.

Edit: I failed to respond to your astute comment on the "stat loss" in EVE. It's worth noting that nobody actually fails to update their clone in EVE, because clones are cheap. Only newbs lose skill points (and tehy only lose them once before learning that lesson), and skill points are that game's progress bar.

If you take away every credit and every ship and every round of ammunition from a player, they keep their SP, and that's the key to their happiness and satisfaction. Nothing can take that away (except flambouyant stupidity).

So even after a player loses their Heavy Assault Ship and gets podded with a head full of +4 faction implants and has to pay three million credits to replace their clone, they just have to click "Character Sheet" and the always-encouraging message, "You have 94 skills and 8,917,382 Skill Points" will remind them that what they are doing has permanent significance.

With a pure stat loss system, it's two step forward, one step back, and players will be so ruinously discouraged by that that I think they'll lose a lot of their enthusiasm for the game, especially if it's a grinding game, which just about every game is (and must be, for want of a better paradigm).

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
But don't MMO addicts need the ability to look out over the broad expanse of their achievements and measure themselves against other players? Won't they stop shelling out if they can't perceive progress in their account? Won't they stop taking risks when that gamble can dig past their "surface" character and harm their underlying progress bar of advancement?


Their progress bar is tied to the account, not the individual character. Character sheets for dead characters could be kept as templates, and an account "hall of fame" could remind them of just how good their magical archer was, if they get nostalgic. Measuring themselves? If you die, but can start the game as a level 80 paladin, that means at some point you were a level 90 paladin--impressive. The really top teir players would have enough accumulated skills on their account to field many different characters--high-level wizards, ninjas, samurais, etc., also impressive.

And perhaps I haven't made myself totally clear: once the player gets a character creation bonus (like, say, 50% of all mage spells learned), that bonus can NEVER be taken away from him so long as he's a subscriber. After he's gotten a character with 60% learned, he will always have the option of creating one with 50% mage spells learned. (and probably some bonuses to intelligence, magic attack, character level, or whatever)

The player loses the character, but keeps most of the advancement, as the "progress bar" isn't tied to a specific character, but the account.



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So even after a player loses their Heavy Assault Ship and gets podded with a head full of +4 faction implants and has to pay three million credits to replace their clone, they just have to click "Character Sheet" and the always-encouraging message, "You have 94 skills and 8,917,382 Skill Points" will remind them that what they are doing has permanent significance.


I'm goign to go ahead and guess that it'd take a substantial amount of play to get back the implants and credits. I don't really see a lot of difference in the magnitude of death punishment I'm proposing. It seems that the big difference is: You lose your character. He's dead. You still have to spend awhile to get back to "where you were."

And I should say I'm not eliminating the possibility of true rezzing by a high level priest or whatever, just that it'd take a really, really good priest.

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I think permadeath is more trouble than its worth. I mean whats the point of it? does it really make the game more fun? thats what games are about after all. Is permadeath an atempt to make the game more realistic? whats next? a MMO with characters that have office jobs?

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Original post by ForeverNoobie
I think permadeath is more trouble than its worth. I mean whats the point of it? does it really make the game more fun? thats what games are about after all. Is permadeath an atempt to make the game more realistic? whats next? a MMO with characters that have office jobs?


I agree. What are the advantages of permadeath? Why is it so appealing to some people?

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My idea on permadeath:

Let it be the players choice. Put it at the end of a high level end-game type of epic quest. At the end of it give the player a choice.

A. Complete quest normally, get some uber cool item. Minor Game story advancement.
B. Valiently Sacrifice thier characters. Opening up special options/classes/races etc for the account, AND placing the original Characters name in the games history as having done something truly memorable. And give the player the ability to link thier new character to thier old one (I.E. Son of ____)

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Original post by ForeverNoobie
I think permadeath is more trouble than its worth. I mean whats the point of it? does it really make the game more fun? thats what games are about after all. Is permadeath an atempt to make the game more realistic? whats next? a MMO with characters that have office jobs?


I remember back in my UO days, mining wasn't particulary fun either. About as monotonous as working in an office. I imagine there are some analogous tasks in more recent MMO's.

I think players should have some respect for death. I guess the pros and cons of that are a different thread.

I should note that this idea didn't actually begin out of a desire to punish players for death, but to loosen up a players commitment to a certain character. If you make some bad optimization decisions mid game, starting a character over at level one is an unappealing rememdy. This system allows and encourages players to dabble in different career paths, and to not start at level one each time.

I wouldn't have titled the thread so provocatively had I not known that people don't like the word "permadeath," but apparently it's a much dirtier and offensive word than I'd realized.

The point isn't to acheive a "realism," unless you mean that giving people incentives for success, punishments for failure, and a more substantial fear of death is "realism."

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Original post by smr
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Original post by ForeverNoobie
I think permadeath is more trouble than its worth. I mean whats the point of it? does it really make the game more fun? thats what games are about after all. Is permadeath an atempt to make the game more realistic? whats next? a MMO with characters that have office jobs?


I agree. What are the advantages of permadeath? Why is it so appealing to some people?


Enchanced opportunity for griefing.

It also adds adrenaline to play via the gravity of 'omg I might lose everything!'. I've never understood such thinking, as I don't like thrills. I also can't imagine the thrill of victory is anywhere near the equally likely agony of defeat...

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Original post by Telastyn
It also adds adrenaline to play via the gravity of 'omg I might lose everything!'. I've never understood such thinking, as I don't like thrills. I also can't imagine the thrill of victory is anywhere near the equally likely agony of defeat...


Are you guys even reading this? No one is losing everything. It's more like "omg, I might lose my last few hours of progress!" Which is apparently acceptable in every game that uses saves.

There are some words that just can't be talked about, apparently.

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World of Warcraft is probably one of the most polished MMORPGs out there, and it has been from release basically. That's not to say it's flawless, since there's issues with server lag etc. Overall though, it's usually smooth sailing.

Dispite this, there have been times when my character died from events beyond my control, such as server lag and bugs. My point is that I don't think we're at a sufficient level of technology to handle permadeath in MMORPGs in a good way.

And, even if we were, I don't think it really is an option if we use todays MMORPG designs, where several hundred or even thousands of hours is needed to "max out" your character. Even if you "only" lose 10 levels, that can be an extremely harsh penalty. I can't really see how games would become better because of it.

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Original post by abstractimmersion
I wouldn't have titled the thread so provocatively had I not known that people don't like the word "permadeath," but apparently it's a much dirtier and offensive word than I'd realized.


Yeah, the word permadeath usualy means losing alot, if not everything. After reading your last two post Im starting to see what you mean. I like to experiment in MMOs trying out different paths. So If the permadeath system is based around that idea, I'll like it.

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And, even if we were, I don't think it really is an option if we use todays MMORPG designs, where several hundred or even thousands of hours is needed to "max out" your character. Even if you "only" lose 10 levels, that can be an extremely harsh penalty. I can't really see how games would become better because of it.


I agree with that, thats a steep punishment asuming leveling, in the game with this system, will be as hard and as long as in the games that I play.

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Original post by abstractimmersion
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Original post by Telastyn
It also adds adrenaline to play via the gravity of 'omg I might lose everything!'. I've never understood such thinking, as I don't like thrills. I also can't imagine the thrill of victory is anywhere near the equally likely agony of defeat...


Are you guys even reading this? No one is losing everything. It's more like "omg, I might lose my last few hours of progress!" Which is apparently acceptable in every game that uses saves.

There are some words that just can't be talked about, apparently.


Woo! Hours wasted because of lag, or PKing, or being stuck with terrible teammates, or any number of reasons that aren't likely my fault. At least if I don't save my game I've nobody to blame but myself.

If you want players to be able to dabble, do something like Guild Wars where you can re-assign points/spells in town. Plenty of fun without the downside.

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Original post by abstractimmersion
I should note that this idea didn't actually begin out of a desire to punish players for death, but to loosen up a players commitment to a certain character. If you make some bad optimization decisions mid game, starting a character over at level one is an unappealing rememdy. This system allows and encourages players to dabble in different career paths, and to not start at level one each time.
This element is very appealing to me. There's nothing worse than realizing that, after 400 hours of gameplay, your character is an invalid, with neither the attributes nor the remaining attainable ability points to become anything special.

As to entering lost characters into the "Hall of Fame", is there any game in existence where the top 500 slots of the leaderboard aren't hackers and exploiters? Between the endless list of winbotters on the Starcraft board, the XBox live rankings that serve as a directory of cheaters, Snabo in Timesplitters: Future Perfect (I killed Snabo three times in one match one time. Take that, you shotgun monkey no-reloading wall-clipping bastard!), the stat-padding bastards who comprise the upper echelons of Battlefield 2's chain of command and all the guys on EVE's most wanted list who have "1943" as their date they started training, I don't think there's any way to have a leaderboard with any real value.

Your idea, which I dislike, and EVE's system, which I enjoy, are actually quite similar, as you've noticed. I've been giving it some thought as this thread has advanced, and I have a theory about why I can stomach big losses in EVE (some random pirate just blew up my only ore hauler. No ransom request, no "Yer money or yer ship," no nothing. Just a warp scrambler and a hail of bullets. Bitch.) but find the notion of permadeath in a fantasy-type MMO (and aren't they all fantasy-type MMOs when we imagine them?) totally unpalatable.

The difference is that in EVE, the ship is the gamepiece. It's where all the equipment is mounted, where all the bonuses come from, and it's your instrument of destruction, creation and advancement. Yet it is not your avatar. It isn't your identity in the game. You can meet someone after not seeing them for weeks or months, and they'll have an entirely new set of properties and functions, having totally switched "classes" from a mission-running hauler to a PvP combatant, and you'll say, "Hey, buddy! Nice ship, do you have tech 2 drones in that thing?" With the permanent loss of the ship, you've got to build another one, call it something like "Pheonix III" and set about exacting vengeance (I blew that pirate up with my fighter, and chased her pod out of the system).

But in other MMOs, where your vehicle IS your character, its loss severs your tie to the game. Even if you start at 80% or 100% strength, you have lost your identity. You roll up with a mage called "Ascension584" and your buddies see the little icon by your name, and look you up and say, "Oh, hey man, I see you are the same player that once was OrcHewer43, did you lose that guy or is this an alt?" Too awkward, too clumsy, too disconcerting. It hurts immersion.

Besides, with all the characters getting created and replaced, all the good names would be totally taken up, and you'll wind up having to call yourself "ErdricSonOfWilhelmIIIJr.384958372"

If the death of the character accomplishes nothing, then it's a hassle that could be avoided by just resurrecting them. Go ahead and dock them some stats, and maybe give them a chance to rearrange some of their attribute points, with a penalty.

I've always been a huge fan of the romantic notion of dying in a blaze of glory, so permadeath as part of a complex reward for a huge mission sppeals to me enormously, but once players start getting there, it'll be an endless parade of lemmings to jump off that cliff and drown the demon king in your blood, so the noble gesture and the "permadeath" will just be another stepping-stone in the endless staircase, another spoke on the wheel of grind, another datum on the spreadsheet of character optimization.

Edit: Finally fixed those pesky quote tags. Sorry everyone.

[Edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on March 17, 2006 3:14:04 AM]

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I have a question for you, OP. What happens if a character dies twice in quick sucession? For example, someone has that +3 bonus to some skill and they die. They make a new character with +1 in that skill. What happens if this new character dies? Has the player 'unlocked' the +1 in the skill(similiar to Guild Wars)? Does the player loose all bonuses to that skill?

Just something to think about before you cash in that 1,000,000 dollars.

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Original post by Ezbez
I have a question for you, OP. What happens if a character dies twice in quick sucession? For example, someone has that +3 bonus to some skill and they die. They make a new character with +1 in that skill. What happens if this new character dies? Has the player 'unlocked' the +1 in the skill(similiar to Guild Wars)? Does the player loose all bonuses to that skill?

Just something to think about before you cash in that 1,000,000 dollars.


Quote:
Original post by abstractimmersion
And perhaps I haven't made myself totally clear: once the player gets a character creation bonus (like, say, 50% of all mage spells learned), that bonus can NEVER be taken away from him so long as he's a subscriber. After he's gotten a character with 60% learned, he will always have the option of creating one with 50% mage spells learned. (and probably some bonuses to intelligence, magic attack, character level, or whatever)





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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage

As to entering lost characters into the "Hall of Fame", is there any game in existence where the top 500 slots of the leaderboard aren't hackers and exploiters?


I wasn't actually talking about a server-wide or game-wide leaderboard, just some data in the account letting the player look at his past characters.

Quote:

The difference is that in EVE, the ship is the gamepiece. It's where all the equipment is mounted, where all the bonuses come from, and it's your instrument of destruction, creation and advancement. Yet it is not your avatar. It isn't your identity in the game. You can meet someone after not seeing them for weeks or months, and they'll have an entirely new set of properties and functions, having totally switched "classes" from a mission-running hauler to a PvP combatant, and you'll say, "Hey, buddy! Nice ship, do you have tech 2 drones in that thing?" With the permanent loss of the ship, you've got to build another one, call it something like "Pheonix III" and set about exacting vengeance (I blew that pirate up with my fighter, and chased her pod out of the system).

But in other MMOs, where your vehicle IS your character, its loss severs your tie to the game. Even if you start at 80% or 100% strength, you have lost your identity. You roll up with a mage called "Ascension584" and your buddies see the little icon by your name, and look you up and say, "Oh, hey man, I see you are the same player that once was OrcHewer43, did you lose that guy or is this an alt?" Too awkward, too clumsy, too disconcerting. It hurts immersion.

Besides, with all the characters getting created and replaced, all the good names would be totally taken up, and you'll wind up having to call yourself "ErdricSonOfWilhelmIIIJr.384958372"


Well, you wouldn't necessarily have to have unique character names. Especially if you're going to be losing a few, it might not be a good idea.

I see what you're saying...but I guess that's part of the penalty here. And like I said, nothing is really stopping a guy from losing Roland the paladin and then starting back out as Roland the paladin at 80% strength.


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Original post by robert4818
My idea on permadeath:

Let it be the players choice. Put it at the end of a high level end-game type of epic quest. At the end of it give the player a choice.

A. Complete quest normally, get some uber cool item. Minor Game story advancement.
B. Valiently Sacrifice thier characters. Opening up special options/classes/races etc for the account, AND placing the original Characters name in the games history as having done something truly memorable. And give the player the ability to link thier new character to thier old one (I.E. Son of ____)


i love your idea

or maybe a sense of heaven, that players could continue on in realms beyond the real world, and visit it from time to time, and maybe earn their way back into the real world, with 1. a spritual character and 2. a real world one.

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I guess no one here has played D&D! Jeez!

If you didn't play with a group of panzies permadeath really was an issue so you always had to be smart about what you did. When you did something risky and heroic you felt good about yourself.

Heck I remember scouting out a cave near a town (in my friend's campaign). We were 2 fighters and we ended up being ambushed by 25 orcs. The DM made it CLEAR that we were outnumbered and he wanted us to run and get some reinforcements. You know, the whole "You feel overwhelmed".

We wouldn't have it.

Instead we placed ourselves in a strategic position where we could only take on a few of them at a time (without being flanked) and we told the orcs to "bring it on". The DM was annoyed and actually took it OOC to say: "You guys realize that I won't pity you during this battle and that I will kill you if you lose."

Note that this wasn't a mindless bot we were fighting against, these were orcs played by a human being so they changed their strategies as their bodies piled up. Imagine how freakin' awesome it was when we took them all out. We piled up all the weaponary and armed the village we were protecting, we saved the day.

Now THAT is the appeal of permadeath. I'd rather play a game where people's reasons to not do a quest is because they fear dying.

"Want to go to the fortress of doom?"
"I really can't, I'm too scared."

instead of

"Want to go to the fortress of doom?"
"Man, that's like a 2 hour quest, nevermind."

Talk about seperating the boys from the men :P

edit: I'm the run on sentence king!

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Sure. We've played D&D, and it's completely different from computer gaming in this regard. You mentioned it yourself. There's a human GM, who actually gives a crap about the playerbase, and partymembers who can speak in complete sentances.

You make the decisions that effect your death. Death in MMORPGs is often not due to player choice, but lag, PKers, ignorance (oh, what's in here? A dragon? *splut*), or ineffective teammates.

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Original post by Telastyn
Sure. We've played D&D, and it's completely different from computer gaming in this regard. You mentioned it yourself. There's a human GM, who actually gives a crap about the playerbase, and partymembers who can speak in complete sentances.

You make the decisions that effect your death. Death in MMORPGs is often not due to player choice, but lag, PKers, ignorance (oh, what's in here? A dragon? *splut*), or ineffective teammates.


Current mainstream RPG deaths are caused by ignorance and ineffective teammates. PKing isn't that much of an issue since nothing happens when you pk, in a permadeath world people wouuld be more inclined to travel in groups. See UO and how you lost all your gear when you died so it was PK heaven.

If you had permadeath I'm sure you'd eliminate the aspect of ignorance, no one would just run into a room without first knowing how to know what's inside. If you didn't and did die to said Dragon, well damn you deserve it.

Permadeath would also enforce how important every part of the chain in a team is important. Because if the priest sucks and wipes the team, well he dies too. So ineffective teammates could cause you to die, in that case choose your friends wisely.

PKers... well I don't know what to tell you about this one. Griefing will always be in games no matter how hard you try and iron it out. You could either disable pking or maybe even make pkers unable to permakill someone. I don't know this is just an idea that is thrown around.

"There's a human GM, who actually gives a crap about the playerbase, and partymembers who can speak in complete sentances." I told you in the example above that the GM told us he'd kill us if we were going to be stupid and take on those 25 goons. We took the chance of dying permanently. I don't see how this doesn't apply in an MMO. If you see 25 creeps and decide to fight them go for it, atleast you know what tactics they'll use (unlike that DnD session where the orcs weren't using some simple AI, they were smart!). If you die you die and think "damn I was dumb to try that". If you survive you can brag about it.

And then there's lag. I really don't feel like getting into huge details about this, but if you're going to play a game with permadeath, don't play on a 56k modem. Heck there could even be some kind of system that would log a user's ping and they could define what is considered unplayable lag. Say when you died you had x msec where x is considered unplayable. The system could determine that you died to unavoidable circumstances and let you live as if nothing happened or with penalties.

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Right, so is being forced to: travel in groups [to avoid PKers], read through a walkthrough [to avoid walking into a dragon's den], interview for competant/high level teammates [to avoid death by sucky teammates], and remove PvP althogether [to avoid PK issues]...

fun?

If not, why add death penalties?


Re: 25 creeps - Ideally, MMORPGs won't continue to be completely braindead and creeps will actually attack rather than waiting to get aggro'd. The difference is that the GM gives you a choice and AI orcs won't. Further, D&D allows your party to sit and discuss wether or not to engage the orcs, and MMORPGs don't. One overzealous noob, and you've got everyone angry with you.

Re: lag - Right, because the userside modem has much to do with over subscribed servers and the hundreds of miles of cabling between the user and the server. Wonderful, so I can avoid the death penalty by having my other server ping flood me. Good plan.

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Original post by Telastyn
Right, so is being forced to: travel in groups [to avoid PKers], read through a walkthrough [to avoid walking into a dragon's den], interview for competant/high level teammates [to avoid death by sucky teammates], and remove PvP althogether [to avoid PK issues]...

fun?

If not, why add death penalties?


Re: 25 creeps - Ideally, MMORPGs won't continue to be completely braindead and creeps will actually attack rather than waiting to get aggro'd. The difference is that the GM gives you a choice and AI orcs won't. Further, D&D allows your party to sit and discuss wether or not to engage the orcs, and MMORPGs don't. One overzealous noob, and you've got everyone angry with you.

Re: lag - Right, because the userside modem has much to do with over subscribed servers and the hundreds of miles of cabling between the user and the server. Wonderful, so I can avoid the death penalty by having my other server ping flood me. Good plan.


25 creeps.. You have the CHOICE to attack them or avoid them. CHOOSE how you'll deal with it. If you're only two, maybe charging them isn't such a good idea? Right?

The lag issue, dude that was just some brain fart idea I put there for discussion. Lag can't be avoided, it's kind of one of those "deal with it" things.

I never said you had to remove pvp, you assumed that. I gave a few ideas on how to avoid permadeath through pking. Travelling in a group to avoid dying is a lot more fun then travelling alone, but hey, it's your choice!

What is this about walkthroughs? Is it so hard to look ahead before you charge? I mean damn, when is there a dragon standing RIGHT behind a door? You don't need to do five hours of research to know what's coming ahead. Heck, if an NPC says "A dragon lives in a cave to the north" guess what, there's a dragon in a cave to the north, you've been warned.

And about the teammates. If you're a high level character who has avoided death so far you're probably competent enough to be in a group. So if you're a level 50 character and you're looking for a competent level 50 priest for a quest... well if you find one it's a pretty good indication that he has survived previous quests in his other groups (meaning he's okay to group with).

edit: Didn't notice this argument:"D&D allows your party to sit and discuss wether or not to engage the orcs"

Counter: I don't know which mmo you've played but all groups I've been with strategize some way or another. Either through calling out targets or having specific tasks per player.

And another note: When we introduce the idea of permadeath in a game, you can't just take WoW and add permadeath and be like "Wow that would suck" you have to realize that the game would be modeled to fit with the issue.

Edit2: Hmmm I reread this post and I feel aggressivity in it. Sorry I didn't mean to post it that way, I'm just carried away in the idea and like anyone I like to defend ideas :P

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