Why is it that so many people are considering schools like full sail and digipen?

394

Author

April 25, 2006 11:43 PM

Quote:Original post by jfclavette
Quote:Original post by ktuluorion
Erm.. I dunno. I guess it depends on where you go.

This semester, for instance, in one class I had probably about 5-6 LARGE pieces of code to write, including one group piece of code.

My experience at two schools has been that coding is the means of evaluation (assignments and on tests), while the emphasis in class is on the science behind it and the design/algorithms etc.

No no no. You don't code 5-6 big pieces of code in a semester. Anything under 20K lines is ridiculously small. We're talking about real world software here. Maybe a team of 4 or 5 talented people could pull a moderately interesting piece of software in a semester if that was all they spent their time on. And that's where Digipen and Full Sail shine. You have to write software.

I don't know if I agree here. I guess it depends. I'm in an interesting situation in that I have been coding for most of my life at the time of starting a second degree in Comp Sci. I suppose it is hard to compare -- i mean, i've written so much code in my life (started at 5 years old), and have been coding C for ~10 years at this point. I don't have what one might call a "typical" experience.

I must say though, that I have always been of the opinion that comp sci is so difficult to start in college. It just seems like people that begin that late in life never quite "understand" on the same level. Many do just fine, don't get me wrong, but it just seems like sometimes they just don't have the level of understanding that people get when they start young.

I can say that it has been pretty intensive for most people in the class (the average SAT score at the school that I am at is somewhere ~1350, so it is a pretty good school that draws talented individuals)

Also, don't forget, this is for ONE class.

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ktuluorion

394

Author

April 25, 2006 11:44 PM

OK people are really getting stupid now.
There is no need to be rating me down; I am being perfectly civil. You don't have to agree with me, we can have a conversation without resorting to this.

Edited: Anger--;

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ktuluorion

394

Author

April 25, 2006 11:49 PM

OK here's a seperate question entirely. I'm just curious, to Jbourrie and the other people who go to these schools.

Does it scare you at all that you could want to switch careers? What would you do in the event that this happened? Would you attempt to pursue a traditional degree, or would you just continue with the credentials that you have?

Have you thought about this? (i'm guessing you have)

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Trapper Zoid

1,370

April 25, 2006 11:53 PM

Quote:Original post by ktuluorion
I must say though, that I have always been of the opinion that comp sci is so difficult to start in college. It just seems like people that begin that late in life never quite "understand" on the same level. Many do just fine, don't get me wrong, but it just seems like sometimes they just don't have the level of understanding that people get when they start young.

Are you sure you aren't referring to programming rather than comptuer science here? I knew some programming before I started university, but I knew little to no computer science (algorithm complexity, theory of computation etc.).

It's just in a thread about game schools, likely to be read by prospective students, I didn't want those terms to get confused.

Rilcon

188

April 26, 2006 12:17 AM

This is a bit OT, but up to what level of education do you get in high schools in North America? I'm asking because most of the elective and further-learning type classes I hear being mentioned seem like things I studied when I was 15-18, back in my Spanish high school (bachiller). Things like history of the arts, history and contemporary history, philosphy, ethics, buisness administration, economics, ancient cultures and latin are all things I learned, and learned damn well, before heading off to uni. I can't really compare to what would be an on one of those subjects in a NA uni, but I have a hard time believing they'd go far beyond what I was taught.

As for what would I do other than game development, I allready have a degree in law (Spanish), so if I become desinterested in this whole thing, I can still go back and become lawyer, or do masters in criminology or something to that effect.

Now, back to game schools, I honestly can't say about how they work over in the US, but, like I said, the place I'm going to is just regular CS with a game programming centric module in the first and second year. The third is an industry placement year, like all computing degrees here in England, and the last is focused on new and future technologies. All in all, I think I chose well.

Forcas

181

April 26, 2006 12:19 AM

Quote:Original post by ktuluorion

The best schools don't even have you touch programming at the beginning, because it is assumed that anyone can learn to program. Computer science is a SCIENCE.

MIT and Berkeley certainly teach programming at the beginning with SICP. When you say "good schools," which schools are you referring to?

There's nothing magical about science. Just as with anything else, you can learn about it from a book. IMHO, books are far better than lectures, because the material contained in books has been carefully organized to convey information to the reader as clearly as possible. In addition, you can read through books at your own pace.

I'm a DigiPen student. I happen to enjoy the algorithm competitions on TopCoder. This is my topcoder profile:
http://www.topcoder.com/tc?module=MemberProfile&cr=287073

My rating tends to oscillate around a point which is higher than all rated U.S. universities except MIT and Stanford. Most of you would probably consider the algorithmic knowledge involved in these competitions outside the realm of DigiPen, and rightfully so. I did not learn this material at DigiPen. Where from, then? From books. Imagine that. Just as with game programming, C++, and Graphics API's, it is possible to teach yourself algorithms.

I am not the only one at DigiPen who has taught myself about algorithms, and algorithms is not the only subject that I have taught myself. There are plenty of reasons to go to college. That a college teaches computer science is not reason enough warrant attending.

Quote:
And yes, 152 credits means nothing. I could open a school, and say that everyone takes eleventy thousand credits per semester, and that doesn't make it good.

True. I think that DigiPen requires too many credits.

Quote:
Let's face it, the specifics of game programming, and programming in general, aren't that difficult to master.

Now this, I disagree with. To master programming, you have to program A LOT.
You have to find which attitudes and environments are most conducive to productive coding. You have to learn to wrap your head around a section of a large project to the extent where you can safely manipulate it. These things do not come naturally, and they are not easy.

Quote:
If I was in a position to hire, yes, I would want someone who could program games. I would also, however, want someone who was well rounded, and could do ANYTHING that I threw at them, beyond game programming.

In other words, you want someone who can adapt. DigiPen students can do this as well as any other intelligent human being.

Quote:
Look at it this way: It is probably pretty difficult to work on a game that deals with history if you do not have an understanding of history. Now, let's say two candidates BOTH don't know about history. One has gone to Digipen, the other has gone to Harvard. One would assume that the one who has gone to Harvard has gotten the education required to go out and do the research on a topic outside of the realm of game programming, organize that information, and create something meaningful out of it in a timely manner. I would make no such assumption of someone from Digipen, who has no general education to speak of.

I would hire a desginer with a strong and immediate interest in history. There are plenty out there. I doubt that a programmer's knowledge of history would be vital to the development of any game.

Quote:
There is also just the general fulfillment part. Doesn't it feel nice to be able to converse with intellectuals on an array of topics? I feel that with my education I can speak with others on almost any topic. How can a game programming school allow you to achieve full intellectual growth?

Sorry if my rant/response seems off topic. It seems to be implied everywhere in this thread that college is the only source of education, and that the only way to be exposed to new ideas is through college. If this were true, the world would be a sad, sad place.

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skjinedmjeet

428

April 26, 2006 12:23 AM

Quote:Original post by ktuluorion
OK here's a seperate question entirely. I'm just curious, to Jbourrie and the other people who go to these schools.

Does it scare you at all that you could want to switch careers? What would you do in the event that this happened? Would you attempt to pursue a traditional degree, or would you just continue with the credentials that you have?

Have you thought about this? (i'm guessing you have)

Maybe some people aren't necessarily worried so much about careers, and would rather do something for the hell of it. Hell, I'm going to music-college, and plan to follow through and get a B. Mus degree. It's certainly not the smartest career move, but it's what I like. I remember having a conversation with a super friendly Starbucks lady; she had her degree in music, yet was working at Starbucks - a shitty deal, but simultaneously, she got to spend four years learning about something she loved, and is now spending her time teaching private lessons, working at Starbucks and going to uni for a more employable degree.

While going to high-school, I planned on going to university for a computer science degree. I took lots of computer classes (although most were a joke, I just wanted to make my highschool transcript look attractive) sciences, etc. and worked my ass off to get A's in everything. After graduating, I decided not to go anywhere for school, since I would acrue significant debt in doing so, and my parents kindly gave me the opportunity to live at home while working full time for a year.

At this point, I decided that instead of shooting for a Comp Sci. degree, I'd go into music. I like computers, and I like to code, but it's definitely on the hobby scale for me. I didn't feel like I had the desire to study it 24/7. Whereas music really captivated my interest. I felt that at this stage in my life, the best choice was for me to enter a program for something that doesn't necessarily make economical sense, but is something that I love to learn about. I feel very receptive to new information and try to absorb as much as possible.

I think the attitude that really pervades is that you have to graduate highschool, immediately go to university, and then enter into a long-term, high-paying career. I think that for the long-term, this is misguided, and leads to mid-life crisis. (I could be wrong though!)

My point is, that studying something I am passionate about, rather than something that will guarantee me significan economic reward is personally very satisfying for myself. If somebody loves games, and wants to make games, they may as well go to DigiPen or FullSail. Supposing at some point they want a career change, or would like to do something non-game related, there's time for that.

Of course it costs money, but it's not as hard to come by as people make it out to be. Unless of course you're married, or have kids.

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Forrest Smith

140

April 26, 2006 12:24 AM

Seeing as how I go to DigiPen and have 1 year till graduation it's safe to say that this thread and the ignorance within is offensive. But rather than reply to the middle of what I'm sure is an ever growing thread I'll try to respond to the root thread.

"Why is it that so many people are considering schools like full sail and digipen?"

I can tell my story and nothing more. I spent one year at a 'real' University. David Lipscomb University to be exact, in Nashville, Tn. A small liberal arts college, but extremely well known in the area. One of the best pre-med programs in the state actually. Can't say the same for their Comp Sci. For the record, their avg SAT is 1130 and my ACT was 30, which would be something around 1340 so I'd do just fine at ktuluorion's unknown school. Anyways..

I knew from the start I wanted to do games programming. I went to Lipscomb as many before me and their CS program just wasn't up to speed. Maybe a big state school or another private school would have been, I don't know. But I did know what I want. And I know what DigiPen offers, a high intensity 4 year degree in game programming.

I do not want to design games. I think any degree offered in game design is doomed to failure. DigiPen does not offer a degree in designing games, they offer a degree in programming games. Most students coming here don't realize this. And most of these students drop out. Some are good enough to do both, but not many.

The degree is 154 credits and yes that is a significant amount more than the majority of schools, but not all of course. Thats an average of 19 1/2 credits per semester every single semester for four years. Most schools require special permission to take more than 18 credit hours in a single semester, here that's the norm.

So, to answer the original question, why DigiPen? To learn my shit and get into the industry. Maybe I could do that at a regular school, maybe. But probably not. For every mod that gets someone a job there were a thousand that crashed and burned. Even if I could get a job at another school I can pretty safely say that any school I could have gone to that I would have been better prepared graduating from DigiPen.

To answer a later question, does it scare me that I may want to change careers and DigiPen hurt me in this regard? Damn straight it does! That was a huge concern of mine and my parents before I came here. But getting a job as a DigiPen graduate is a pretty safe bet, and getting a job outside the industry after working for a programmer at where ever is a relatively safe bet. It's a gamble, but so is any choice in college.

I will call you out on a few things in the middle. The teachers at DigiPen, like any school, are a mixed bag. We have some that are absolutely brilliant, and a few duds. It gets better every year. There are currently 4 full time Microsoft employees who also teach as well as someone completely awesome from Nintendo. The graphics teacher is a damned genius and was lead programmer on several games (the GC Wave Race, some Ridge Racer, a 1080 snowboarder and more I believe).

I guess you have PhD professors, but big whoop. I care about games, not fancy research work. To be honest thats almost a turn-off to me. Why? Because I know of numerous teachers at University of Tennessee and Vanderbilt who are there explicitly to do their research and they hate teaching. They only teach because it lets them work at the nuclear power plant (not joking) or get their $10 million research grant. At DigiPen every single teacher who is here is because they want to be and they enjoy teaching. The same can not be said for large universities.

Holy crap that was long! If you could recompile a clean list of complaints I'm sure we can address every one of them.

dpadam450

2,403

April 26, 2006 12:30 AM

Ok, heres my input:

Quote:
capn_midnight
At this point, I'm also equipped to create a complete graphics library from scratch. You may have learned how to use OpenGL or DirectX to an advanced level, but do you nderstand *how* it does what it does? I'm also equipped to invent new processes and give them the academic workover necessary to prove their validity. I was a particularly good software engineering student, so I'm equipped to lead a team in the development of an application.

First, they dont teach DX or OpenGl here, maybe slightly, thats all. Yes, we understand how it does what it does (im assuming u mean rasterization, matrix math, ray tracing. I'm havent taken my CG classes yet so I dont know it all but I know most, and yes I feel that any grad could write their own api, Jbourie may have...?).

Quote:
jfclavette
I know there are quite a few Digipen grads at Microsoft. (No, not XBox/games related jobs)

From what I heard last week, Microsoft might hire all of the CE students graduating this or next year (only about 7).

Quote:
ktuluorion
I can't even find a link to a list of faculty and their achievements on the digipen page. That speaks volumes to me. On the flipside, the two major college/universities that I have attended make it extremely easy to see the pulitzer and nobel prizes that the staff have gotten, along with research information and other accolades.

www.digipen.edu have u been there. They have won about 3 IGF spots and ehm JBourie? RumbleBox? hello...? His even won game design in the pro competition. Again, the teachers here are hard asses. Ian Lewis - credits on Kameo and other games. Xbox audio guy. Jason Hanson as mentioned before - Phd. knows his c++ and computer graphics like a mad man. Jen Sward - did some work at westwood studios I believe.

Quote:
ktuluorion
Another thing is, let's face it, I don't think you will find the same level of brilliant minds at Digipen or Fullsail that you will find at a real college/university.

Again, www.igf.com, digipen is winning awards.

Quote:
ktuluorion
Does it scare you at all that you could want to switch careers? What would you do in the event that this happened? Would you attempt to pursue a traditional degree, or would you just continue with the credentials that you have?

I can't answer this myself but I feel, and so does the owner of the school, that leaving Digipen, you can program anything. And all this mentioning of "narrow education", well we had some grads come back to talk and as the teachers say, "DigiPen will prepare you to pick up a new API/language whatever, and be able to accomplish the task". And that is really similar to what one of those grads said last week when he talked about working on Metroid Prime Hunters.

On a side note, the curriculum is pretty close to a standard university except that I havent seen one university have Linear Algebra (so no Linear Algebra 2, which DigiPen has), and Digipen also has 2 or 3 computer graphics classes, plus a math class on curves and survaces.

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meh

375

April 26, 2006 03:31 AM

If I could just edge in amongst the rabid inter-school rivalary for a second to point something out.

Whether you go to a school such as Digipen or a 'proper' school you won't begin your real education until you step out and into your first job.

Why is it that so many people are considering schools like full sail and digipen?

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