@Rian - If you read the whole post you'll see that you need money to build a dungeon, money that is acquired by playing the game if you don't have a dungeon of your own.

Ahh, now i see. Sorry about that.

Quote:Original post by Extrarius
You're almost on the right track. Drop the epic/unique/etc, but keep the "dungeons are banks" idea. Make the game semi-realistic in that there are no "secure banks" at all, and everything must be stored in play-built areas. A dungeon isn't a mission so much as it's a secure storage facility =-) For those that have dungeons, their stuff is kep at the end of their dungeon when they're not logged on and when they are logged on, anything not on the character is in the dungeon. For those that don't have dungeons, they can select another player to safeguard their stuff (or perhaps put it in a decent NPC dungeon) and hope it's there when they get back. Perhaps you should do levels, but have them be meaningless as far as 'power level' goes, but they could still be used to judge a character because a higher level character has been playing longer and likely has better equipment (unless they put it all in one place and it was taken) and you could have a rule where level X players can't take stuff from level <X-10 players, so newbies don't have a chance to build up a bit before the "this game world is my life" players take everything. It'd also be interesting if, instead of a huge chest at the end or monsters randomly dropping things, there would be a few monsters at the end that would actually use the items you're trying to take (so taking a good item is more difficult simply because it's a better item and makes the monster stronger).

Following this route, you shouldn't have the first player to get through the dungeon takes all the loot, or will it be that you can only take select amount of items plus 25% of the gold? And what if a guild was formed, that all they do is run from dungeon to dungeon wiping out everything but fellow guild members? Perhaps have it so player crafted dungeons can only be solo'ed or at the most allow only three looters at a time. Maybe there should be the option of keeping one item unlootable, so a player wouldn't be completely wrecked and would still have his best weapon or armor. Otherwise, if you are hit by looters you would be out of weapons and armor, with no money to buy more and you would need to fight weaker monsters by hand until you have enough money to buy a good item. You certainly couldn't run through another player's dungeon without a weapon, and all tanks would be destroyed by a looting, while all casters wouldn't be affected too much.

I disagree with the "all your possessions should be kept in a the dungeon". This seems really radical, and poses several problems:

• It royally screws over low-level players, and requires you to hack together some kind of "safety" system to help them out. This is a sign of bad game design, IMO.
  
  
• What happens when you reach the end of a dungeon? Do you take all of the loot? If so, what's left for the next adventurer?

I think, to balance it, there should be some kind of "safe" bank where you can store gold at least. To benefit new players, you could have a cap on the bank as to how much gold they can put in there, so that eventually, yeah, you'd have to start storing it in a dungeon. But not until you're well-established. I still disagree with this kind of "must store in dungeon" system, since it basically kills any possible reward queueing system so the dungeon can be defeated multiple times before being "restocked".

Another problem with the bank system is that everyone would put all of their money into the bank before adventuring. Thus negating any possible loss. Which kills the "profit" aspect of the game. Sure, you can charge "entry fees" for the dungeons, but O____O. I wouldn't pay to venture into the abyss.

Sure, you can design around these to include some kind of safe storage system, but inevitably, there will probably be some method to exploit it such that losses are minimized. Which makes it so there's only one strategy, which kind of sucks.

I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it in any case. But it definitely is an area which needs to be addressed.

Think of creating a dungeon as a skill -- with levels. Once you get proficient at creating a dungeon at on level you garduate to the next. Advancing levels have more resources available to the 'dungeon master'. Some point system is needed to specify the resource points of different dungeon components and the point value of more dangerous/complex objects should increase. Possibly the 'total point cost' is also a vector of the danger level of the objects and the number of objects making up the dungeon. A dungeon master would have limits to both factors at any particular level. (The limits would go a long way in curbing abuse ie- slaughterhouse scenarios intended to kill players maliciously.....)

The difficulty of the dungeon could thus be roughly judged an allow better player matchup (decision to tackle it...) and XP reward.

Some system of review would be needed to decide when a dungeon master is deemsed 'proficient' and able to graduate. A complaint process will be needed to handle the usual 'inappropriate content' as well.

I would have some 'token of achievement' for the player completing a particular dungeon (so the objective is not just loot) and also some persistant marker to facilitate a system to deny too many repeated playing of the same scenario.
(ie- a party with someone who did the same dungeon 5 times couldnt enter....)

If the game system if flexible enough, 'random encounters' with instances of the 'dungeon' might be possible (which may then disappear afterwards or persist until the dungeon is completed (and the loot taken....)

If possible have a system of mutation of the scenario to keep the inevitable 'publishing of details on the web' (which ruins/cheapens the experience of many players). Rearranging tunnels/terrain, spawns, a shell game for the boss/loot, different puzzles, etc.. could increase the reusability of a scenario.


Such a system should also include placement of 'clue' props to get/attract parties to a new scenario (the usual 'guy in the tavern' or the sign saying 'this way to certain death'....). A general quest generation system would
fit player created dungeons into a larger scheme to keep the players supplied with interesting content.

The aspect of having the DM (player) actually run a dungeon is generally impractical in the MMORPG games. 99% of dungeons will HAVE to be self executing as most DMs wont be around to run their dungeons (and many wont feel like running their dungeons all the time they are online).


There may be a solution to this problem (assuming the game system is made to allow the following...).

Guest hosting of the 'dungeon'. There may be yet another 'skill' mechanism -- that of running a dungeon (seperate from creating one).

A system of letting players play monsters (and/or direct monsters) in a game would go a long way to improving the game. A pool of players would get assigned roles on an as needed basis to dungeons or random encounters. They would control the monsters and be restricted to only what the monster could do.
Flexibility in assignment will be needed because of the freedom the players have to decide on their actions (many dungeons will be inactive at any point in time and suddenly a scenario with a multitude of monsters will become activated).

The assignments would be random to prevent players from assisting a party they know. Metric could be calculated to whether the player was effective of not in performing the task. The 'monster' players would only be able to communicate with the party as appropriate to the monster role (precanned scripted stuff could be provided as part of the mechanism).

An good idea may be to have the names of the party players not be shown (maybe a monster view showing labels like 'raw meat #3' or 'mage intruder' or even just greytone blobs like in some sci-fi movies....)


Like the dungeon creactor 'skill', the dungeon running skill would also have levels with increasing abilities. Proficiency in using the resources (of either a whole dungeon or just on the monster directly controlled) leads to the next level and being allowed to control more dangerous/complex situations.

Of course all dungeons/monsters will have default/automatic behaviors so that if the controllong player is disconnected/ leaves, the scenario isnt disrupted (carries on running).

Directing a dungeon may be as simple as designating targets for existing minsters or the timing of activating spawns.

Whole sets of 'monster proficiency' could exist with players qualifying for different types of monsters ('I have my Lesser Dragon Badge, and you dont -- hah hah!!)





The AI on these games will be pitiful/soulless for a very long time and what I have proposed could expand what players can do in a game (play a whole spectrum of monsters or control/direct a dungeon scenario). This is actually seperate from the 'player create a dungeon' and could be used on company created content.

Quote:Original post by Extrarius


Mushu: I think a safe bank causes more complications than it solves. You could, perhaps, have a VERY limited bank that can store a single item (or, if diablo-style, perhaps 8 'squares' of items) along with a bit of gold (maybe 5000 if prices are along diablo 1 levels), but anything that would help out more serious players at all would detract significantly from the dungeon focus of the game.

If you arent aiming for an open-ended game then its not as big a problem.


Players will always accumulate interesting items and extra equiptment (especially in a 'rich' detail world). If you dont have something like the invulnurable bank for items, you would lose out on ALOT of player gameplay.
A severely limited storage would hamstring the game (ie- kiss crafting goodbye, kiss unique/varied weapons/tools/loot goodbye).

If you try to have a house (or equiv) where the assets that a player accumulates are left open to predations of other players you will eventually need a lockdown scheme (like used in UO) which is a bigger drain on the server (effectively it is a visible bank).