Dungeon Mastering

33,739

May 21, 2006 11:59 PM

Quote:Original post by Extrarius
There are many possibilities that could work, such as having 'guild dungeons' that multiple people could contribute to in order to safeguard their stuff, essentially being a player-run realistic bank.

I think that when you log, your equipment that is actaully on you and not just in your inventory should not go into a dungeon, that way if someone does loot your particular dungeon, you wouldn't be completely ruined. All of your inventory gets added into your bank-dungeon at log, but your equipment on you wouldn't, upon relog your inventory(or what's left of it, if any) would return to you. What you actaully place in your dungeon would stay there until removed by you or a looter.

I like the idea of a guild dungeon though, where every guild member helps build it/upgrade it. In everquest, there was this guild called the "Western Trading Guild" or something simular, and it was consisted of high end merchants. Maybe in this hypothetical MMO, Banking Guilds will form that spend lots of money to mantian dungeons, which charge other players fees to store their goods in the Banking Guild's dungeon. Of course, that will, in turn, create fake banking guilds. Insurance will be created by a legit Banking Guild for if someone loots your items from their vault; this may(nay, will) bring insurance scams, where someone buys insurance on tons of high end items, and has a friend loot them, splitting the insurance and returning the goods to the original owner for placement in a different bank. Heh, many 'shady' busineses will spring up, bringing more imersion into the game, more role playing, more annoyances but overall allowing people to go more in-depth. And with the creation of banking guilds, perhaps loaner guilds? If you don't pay a loaner 110% of what you borrowed to purchase your cool item, the whole guild will go and loot your dungeon clean, and keep looting it until you pay what you owe. Someone may take advantage of that, and create a charactor to loan money, than pass of the money to a friend and delete the charactor, but then the loaner guild may start only loaning to level 15+ charactors, as people wouldn't want to delete a semi-high level charactor they took the time to level. Just thinking out loud...

Hase

313

May 22, 2006 02:08 AM

Why do you assume that dungeon masters have diametrically opposed interests to players? The trick is to find a system that works for both of them, not one-way. You don´t want dungeons as banks, or rewards per killed player, since that will only cause relentless optimising.

What you want to look for is a system that will reward dungeon masters by creating interesting, rewarding dungeons that are challenging and FUN. Give rewards to the DM based on how many people play his dungeons. Reward the DM for dungeons that are challenging, but not too hard.
A possible system would be to reward the DM according to the percentage of deaths/failures his dungeon causes. Too many and it´s not fun, too few and it´s to easy.

DMs also don´t need gold, and probably should be limited from the player gold economy altogether (problems of explointing easy dungeons will be pretty massive anyway). The DMs reward should be the ability to build better, bigger dungeons - which in turn will allow his dungeons to become more popular. MMOs are a lot about status.
And take the loot question almost completely out of the DMs hands - find a way to calculate an overall "Dungeon Difficulty" and assign loot based on that. Something along the lines of monster count x monster level would probably work, with some adjustemnts for group sizes and traps.

Any dungeon must also function without direct control from the dungeon master, naturally. He should be able to take part while there´s a party in it, but not to the extent that his presence is necessary.

Edtharan

607

May 22, 2006 05:56 PM

Instead of having the player set the loot for a dungeon, why not have a ranking for the dungeon (set by players) that determines the loot.

This ranking can be based on many different metrics. Some of which might be:
1) Player votes (Favorite): The players vote for their favorite dungeon.
2) Player votes (Hardest): The players vote for the hardest dungeon.
3) Death/Completed ratio: Based on the number of (unique) players that enter the dungeon compared to the number of players that finish the dungeon (get the loot), could determine the level of loot that can be got.
And so on.

This kind of ranking could also determine what type of loot and for what class/race/specific build the loot is for. This can be taken from player stats when they vote or could be an actual vote topic in its self.

This system not only allows for player to build a dungeon, but also allows the comunity to set the loot that is availabel at the end of the dungeon.

The negative feedback loop that results from players trying to make their character unique (ie not let everyone have the uberloot) will make the better loot harder to get and if it is based on the metrics, then the good loot will also be in the more interesting dungeons.

Anonymous

May 23, 2006 06:32 AM

Quote:Original post by Edtharan
Instead of having the player set the loot for a dungeon, why not have a ranking for the dungeon (set by players) that determines the loot.

This ranking can be based on many different metrics. Some of which might be:
1) Player votes (Favorite): The players vote for their favorite dungeon.
2) Player votes (Hardest): The players vote for the hardest dungeon.
3) Death/Completed ratio: Based on the number of (unique) players that enter the dungeon compared to the number of players that finish the dungeon (get the loot), could determine the level of loot that can be got.
And so on.

This kind of ranking could also determine what type of loot and for what class/race/specific build the loot is for. This can be taken from player stats when they vote or could be an actual vote topic in its self.

This system not only allows for player to build a dungeon, but also allows the comunity to set the loot that is availabel at the end of the dungeon.

The negative feedback loop that results from players trying to make their character unique (ie not let everyone have the uberloot) will make the better loot harder to get and if it is based on the metrics, then the good loot will also be in the more interesting dungeons.

The players would simply wind up voting for the easiest dungeon to solve and that dungeon would then be both the easiest and give the best loot. Players would figure the system out and begin exploting it almost immediately.

The loot would match the calculated difficulty level of the dungeon and players hopefully would be blocked from playing the same one to the final 'big reward' over and over (like all the static dungeons in games the player head straight for the best bits and ignore the rest once they learn the place).

Calculation of the difficulty would have to be automated somehow and should be more complicated than a simple summation of monster/traps. Somehow the sequence and density of threats has to be worked out (a party fighting each monster one at a time each in a seperate room is much easier than fight many at once and the terrain each fight happens in also increases the difficulty).

Maybe a system of loot accumulating the longer the dungeon stands unbeaten might
work.

Anonymous

May 23, 2006 06:51 AM

Using a 'dungeon' to protect a players 'stuff' is just begging for failure.

Players will beat whatever protective measures you could use or it becomes so hard
with protective uber guards that its basicly impossible (and therefore a useless system). You have to guard against the highest level players who will just shrug aside you pitiful minions/traps (and if you have access to uber-minions to protect from the high level players then it will be a slaughterhouse for low level ones (or they will simply be blocked by unopenable doors and unpenatrable forcefield spells etc...)

Every player wants a 'bank' and many inept ones will lose all their stuff and damn the designers who created such a dim system.

In guilds you would probably start having players stealing from each others stuff in a 'communal' storage arrangement.

A possible system is to just always be able to make new 'stuff' from controlled raw materials. A person would have land (etc..) which cant be stolen and access (or workers) to produce new 'stuff' (or to generate money to get new 'stuff' from other players.) Now you can have some small 'secret' place (bank) to stash small items (keepsakes, weird artifacts, dungeon momentos).

Depending on the death system, you cant always have everything you own on you (to possibly be lost when you die). I suppose a clever system could be made where the player never is killed (just injured/disable/trapped/frozen) and that would allow a player to wander around with all his best items.

Dungeon masters should be given a proscribed amount of loot for theor dungeons automaticly. It shouldnt become a game of 'loot a players fortress'.....

Steadtler

220

May 23, 2006 11:49 AM

Quote:
The loot should depend on how difficult the dungeon is to players. So an easy dungeon drops crappy loot while a difficult dungeon will hold epic loot. Or maybe the loot is just "purchased" from a dungeon Lord (but the DM cannot use any of it as they cannot enter their own Dungeon in a real way. (They can practice but they get nothing out from it than just testing.) I still am unsure about this as they could make an easy dungeon with high loot and have their friends go through with no trouble. But if I make it depend on the difficulty, how can the actual difficulty be tested?

What's to keep this balanced so that you don't get people don't make dungeons too hard to too easy? Or if having a dungeon which is hard for a mid-level character and having high level characters help them every time which means they don't die. that turns into a loss for the DM.

I find this whole idea interesting, and I have a few suggestions.

First, the sytem "advertise" the loot in every dungeon (Classsic Tavern style: "Did you heard? they say the famed Triton Sword is in the Cave of Reckonning. Who will dare brave it?"). Thus, if you dont place enough loot, no one will come in your dungeon.

Second, what happens if no one comes in your dungeon? Your minions will leave, of course. You must provide juicy advendurers to feed them and keep them happy and increase the size of your dungeon. Can't have a red dragon protecting a tin can no one wants. You want the most people to come in your dungeon, but you want every one of them to die. The number of adventurers that dies and the size of your loot determine the number and strength of the minions that will live in your dungeon.

Third, to prevent *impossible* dungeons, you must walk from the begining to the vault of your own dungeon before opening it. With the exception that your own minions will not attack you. Most of them.

Fourth, to help prevent abuse, you cant place and controls minions directly. You place what they need to live in the dungeon, then minions come to live in your dungeon. Think populous or similar game: You completely control the environment, but your minions are completely automomous agents. Of course the minions first and foremost goal is to kill adventurers. Good AI is needed, but minions are typically dumb.

I never played Dungeon Master or Evil genius, sorry if those ideas are common knowledge...

trapdoor

130

Author

May 23, 2006 08:17 PM

One thing I always got annoyed with, (except for Dungeon Seige), was the limit on what you could hold. When you ran out of room, you had to drop the items which normally destroyed it. DS had transmute which could at least turn it into gold.

One idea is that any item on you can be transported to the dungeon. That way if you fill up your bags, you can send a few items to the dungeon.

---

Well if part of the penalty for dying was a huge hit to durability of all items, which need to be repaired, the money for repairing goes to the DM. basically it would work as once the player dies, a calculation is done on durability and the cost to repair. That gold is immediately deposited to the DM and it's up to the player if they want to repair the item.

----

Quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster

The aspect of having the DM (player) actually run a dungeon is generally impractical in the MMORPG games. 99% of dungeons will HAVE to be self executing as most DMs wont be around to run their dungeons (and many wont feel like running their dungeons all the time they are online).

I think I stated that the dungeons may have DM's control certain aspects, but it's not necessary. I do envision that dungeons are self automated.

---

Quote:Guest hosting of the 'dungeon'. There may be yet another 'skill' mechanism -- that of running a dungeon (seperate from creating one).

Intriguing...

---

Quote:A system of letting players play monsters (and/or direct monsters) in a game would go a long way to improving the game. A pool of players would get assigned roles on an as needed basis to dungeons or random encounters. They would control the monsters and be restricted to only what the monster could do.
Flexibility in assignment will be needed because of the freedom the players have to decide on their actions (many dungeons will be inactive at any point in time and suddenly a scenario with a multitude of monsters will become activated).

I had something similar in mind but it was unrelated to dungeons. It would have been a selected few chosen by Game Moderators who would get a chance at being a super elite monster which could terrorize communities until it was defeated. But having just the regular mobs in a dungeon, let alone a player created dungeon, it something I over looked.

I'm thinking of this:
Sort of like in ghost form which could possess mobs. A monster which doesn't attack could "reject" the possessor which would incure a penalty to the ghost like inability to play for a few minutes. Deaths or leaving a mob also incurs penalties but are much smaller than rejection. (At least leaving a mob). This ensures that the player makes it easy for the adventurers by not attacking. And also having multiple mobs rush in because they were all controlled by players.

----

I think the loot is the thing that must be controlled well. As far as gold drops, it shouldn't come from the DM. taking the Dungeon Keeper view, all gold dropped is the product of the gold the DM used to buy or rent out a mob. Since in DK, all mobs came and were paid, the gold they drop could be their own.

----

Quote:What you want to look for is a system that will reward dungeon masters by creating interesting, rewarding dungeons that are challenging and FUN. Give rewards to the DM based on how many people play his dungeons. Reward the DM for dungeons that are challenging, but not too hard.
A possible system would be to reward the DM according to the percentage of deaths/failures his dungeon causes. Too many and it´s not fun, too few and it´s to easy.

I'm wondering if having the rewards to DM's take at least a month or so before the return is evident. After that the rewards are huge. But if a dungeon doesn't last that long, all the investment goes away. They lose a huge chunk of money. I remember playing Roller Coaster Tycoon. One of my favourite things to do was to build amazing rollercoasters. The challenge was to make it exciting, while making sure it's not too nauseating or too intense for people to go on. Same should apply here. If a dungeon is too difficult or looks to be intended as just killing dungeons, people won't go, and the dungeon collapses. Too easy and either people stop going cause it's not a challenge, or it's a drain on the DM.

Tying the DM's reward to an increased variety of mobs or dungeon options is definitely an option. I don't really want players who have tons of gold to just instantly create the largest known dungeon.

----

It seems the biggest controversy over this system seems to be having uber levels walk into easy dungeons and drain everything from the DM. To reclarify, Gear is not necessarily a huge loss. I'm hoping a sword is a sword is a sword. There are no bad swords. I want all level's stripped from items. Just make using the item class available / unavailable. Good swords have a few extra stats than a plain sword. Plain weapons are available for free as the "army" will supply them. The rarer items are the ones that could give that extra edge and therefore sought after. But should it be lost, it doesn't mean the player is now useless without it. It is my goal that a skilled player can use a toon with plain equipment and beat another player who isn't necessarily skilled but has uber items. But in most cases, two equally skilled players, one with plain one with epic items, the epic will win most of the time.

----

Quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster

Now you can have some small 'secret' place (bank) to stash small items (keepsakes, weird artifacts, dungeon momentos).

hidden walls... I even wondered if having artifacts that would release the item if the riddle was answered.

----

Quote:Original post by Steadtler

Third, to prevent *impossible* dungeons, you must walk from the begining to the vault of your own dungeon before opening it. With the exception that your own minions will not attack you. Most of them.

that would do the trick. but what about dungeons which require a group? The Dm would have to find a group and walk them through... which could give away secrets on how to beat it. Another way to defeat the impossible dungeon is if there's an advertising / rating that players can look through. If a dungeon is rated as impossible and has bad comments about it, players may stay away which should be enough to collapse the dungeon.

FYI. Dungeon Keeper and Evil Genius worked on a similar matter. You didn't really control the minions. You could pick them up and place them elsewhere... or slap them :) You directly affected the environment, carved tunnels and rooms. In DK you could control a minion if you researched Possession. By doing so, you controlled the minion but lost all knowledge of anything else. You couldn't see what was going on elsewhere. And when you released the minion, there was a time penalty before you could do things again.

iKonquest.com - Web-based strategy.End of Line

Anonymous

May 24, 2006 10:08 AM

I have not been able to read the posts on page 2 but i have a few ideas.
DM should get xp points towards dungeon building when people play his dungeon. More people play and die the more points he gats and the more levels, monsters, and traps he can add.
Also, what the DM can put into his dungeon should be dependant on the loot that is set there. More loot=more monsters to place.

Example:DM puts in 1000 gold, he can now place 10 level 5 creatures or 1 lvl 20 creature or whatever.

Also you should be able to buy weapons for your monsters so that you can make elite monsters out of very weak ones.

Anonymous

May 24, 2006 07:23 PM

Quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
I have not been able to read the posts on page 2 but i have a few ideas.
DM should get xp points towards dungeon building when people play his dungeon. More people play and die the more points he gats and the more levels, monsters, and traps he can add.
Also, what the DM can put into his dungeon should be dependant on the loot that is set there. More loot=more monsters to place.

Example:DM puts in 1000 gold, he can now place 10 level 5 creatures or 1 lvl 20 creature or whatever.

Also you should be able to buy weapons for your monsters so that you can make elite monsters out of very weak ones.

The idea is to facilitate creation of dungeon/quest scenarios. The problem with the DM providing the money is -- where does the DM get the money - does the DM have to split time generating the 'loot' just to set it up to be stolen (over and over) in his dungeon??? The idea is also to have reuseability, as alot of work goes into a good dungeon and requiring the DM to keep providing money so that more players can steal it is not really workable.

The mechanism should be : DMing is a role that players can assume. It has levels that increase the dungeon resources at each stage (monsters/pretty-ification effects, etc and loot). The higher the DM level, the more complicated/intricate the dungeon can be. Some metric needs to exist to determine if the DM has reached competancy at the current level and thus can advance.

The DM role is completely independant of the players characters. Some provision may have to be made to block the player from playing his own dungeon as a characters vecause of the obvious opportunities to cheat -- may even have to randomize its running in the world to keep the DM from having his friends cheat
(unless you minimize the puzzle aspect and disallow off-switch mechanism that can make for a painless solving/completion of the dungeon.)

trapdoor

130

Author

May 24, 2006 09:32 PM

I've updated the first post to summarize the topic up to now. While, you can, it may not be necessary to read the entire post. If I've missed something let me know. But this way people just joining just have to read the first post to get what we've talked about so far.

iKonquest.com - Web-based strategy.End of Line

Dungeon Mastering

This topic is closed to new replies.

Popular Topics

Recommended Tutorials

Dungeon Mastering

This topic is closed to new replies.

Popular Topics

Recommended Tutorials

Reticulating splines