Balancing is always needed, but that doesn't mean that all character classes should be equivalent. Some may require more skill to use effectively, but then offer more devastating damage - that's balance. (Think Zangief in the original Street Fighter II - strong but slow - or Vega/Balrog - fast but weak - as opposed to a "neutral" character like Ryu.)
Balance character class abilities against user skill and reward.
Race / Class balancing. Is it needed?
Quote:Original post by trapdoor
This keeps the trolls as an overpowered race at least in strength. But has severe penalties that no other race has. The limit on population also keeps them somewhat rare compared to other races. (1% can be changed to higher or lower depending on how abused they are)
My point was to try to engineer a 1% population limit rather than enforce a 1% population limit. I think making trolls appeal to people 1% of the time is less annoying than the queue. Also, depending on how things work, the queue might be blocked by people playing other races.
Finally, if trolls are only going to be 1% of the population, is it really worth putting this much effort into them? What about other races/classes that need balancing?
Author
Well in total, i have 4 factions, 6 races per faction.
They are as follows:
the typical Human-elf-dwarf group. They are the "pretty" faction and must rely on more technology than the other factions. They also are very general. No super strengths or weaknesses.
The Horde group. They are to have more strength than the other factions. They are fairly weak with almost all classes of magic, even though they can still use it. The troll is part of this group. The troll is also the only race (well there's another later) that is even stronger than any other class. They have the negatives I have mentioned earlier, such as no mount option, higher chance to permadie, limitted number.
The Infernal Legion. They are the undead and demonic group. They are weaker than the human group in general but are better with magic. One race, the demons, are very troll like. Not as powerful as the troll but they can only be warriors and a limited 1 mage class. (there are at least 10 mage classes). Still, the Demon should be like an orc or an ogre.
The Beasts are.... mutts. They almost equal the human-elf-dwarf group but are wider ranging. One race is really good at magic while another is a fighter not a mage. Then there are a few that are just jacks of all.
The only one race that has an advantage over all races is the Troll.
Lets do a test. If there are a 5000 people on a server, with the factions split evenly to all, that' 1250 per faction.
about 210 of them will be trolls in this equation. which is about 4%. Reducing the number of allowable trolls to about 70 makes that about 1.5 % of the server population.
210 was a bit much as my idea of a troll could easily take 2 players at once which is why is better. 3-4 is what I want a troll to have a 50/50 chance with. Class will definitely have difference here. 2 well skilled players should be able to take a troll of equal level. It's like the beginning of WoW when Paladins and Shamans were absolutely hated because everyone said they were over powered.
I could be persuaded to make it so 1 troll = 2 players but it begins to go against what I'm trying to do.
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Basically with the 4 factions I mentioned above, the Horde, Legion and Beasts should all be able to be equal with each other. (Ignore the trolls for now). But the man-elf-dwarf faction is going to have it a little tougher. It is the only faction I want to have to fight in numbers, at least against a troll.
They are as follows:
the typical Human-elf-dwarf group. They are the "pretty" faction and must rely on more technology than the other factions. They also are very general. No super strengths or weaknesses.
The Horde group. They are to have more strength than the other factions. They are fairly weak with almost all classes of magic, even though they can still use it. The troll is part of this group. The troll is also the only race (well there's another later) that is even stronger than any other class. They have the negatives I have mentioned earlier, such as no mount option, higher chance to permadie, limitted number.
The Infernal Legion. They are the undead and demonic group. They are weaker than the human group in general but are better with magic. One race, the demons, are very troll like. Not as powerful as the troll but they can only be warriors and a limited 1 mage class. (there are at least 10 mage classes). Still, the Demon should be like an orc or an ogre.
The Beasts are.... mutts. They almost equal the human-elf-dwarf group but are wider ranging. One race is really good at magic while another is a fighter not a mage. Then there are a few that are just jacks of all.
The only one race that has an advantage over all races is the Troll.
Lets do a test. If there are a 5000 people on a server, with the factions split evenly to all, that' 1250 per faction.
about 210 of them will be trolls in this equation. which is about 4%. Reducing the number of allowable trolls to about 70 makes that about 1.5 % of the server population.
210 was a bit much as my idea of a troll could easily take 2 players at once which is why is better. 3-4 is what I want a troll to have a 50/50 chance with. Class will definitely have difference here. 2 well skilled players should be able to take a troll of equal level. It's like the beginning of WoW when Paladins and Shamans were absolutely hated because everyone said they were over powered.
I could be persuaded to make it so 1 troll = 2 players but it begins to go against what I'm trying to do.
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Basically with the 4 factions I mentioned above, the Horde, Legion and Beasts should all be able to be equal with each other. (Ignore the trolls for now). But the man-elf-dwarf faction is going to have it a little tougher. It is the only faction I want to have to fight in numbers, at least against a troll.
Quote:Original post by trapdoor
Basically with the 4 factions I mentioned above, the Horde, Legion and Beasts should all be able to be equal with each other. (Ignore the trolls for now). But the man-elf-dwarf faction is going to have it a little tougher. It is the only faction I want to have to fight in numbers, at least against a troll.
I still think that, with the right checks and balances, you can acheive the proportions you want. For example, why play man-elf-dwarf since they're obviously, by your estimates, weaker (they have to fight in numbers and you say trolls are better because they don't need numbers)?
Make something like a Troll a "griefer class", specifically designed for jerks to play. THey start out plenty tough, and have no limits on their PK rights, but are flagged as targets to everyone and have a bounty on their head at all times. They can run aroung pwning nubs and harassing mission runners, but they can't go into town without every guard and watchman coming at them with a spear and NPCs either run away or engage them on sight. Trolls don't level in any meaningful way, although they can get some bonuses (and a boost to their bounty) by busting up players.
It would be like a playable mob.
It would be like a playable mob.
Quote:Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Make something like a Troll a "griefer class", specifically designed for jerks to play. THey start out plenty tough, and have no limits on their PK rights,
[...]
Trolls don't level in any meaningful way, although they can get some bonuses (and a boost to their bounty) by busting up players.
It would be like a playable mob.
I'm afraid they would be the default "tank class" of organized gangs or guilds. Gang fights would be our trolls against their trolls instead of our warriors against their warriors; the need for specialists wouldn't be reduced, but nothing relegates trolls to a lone bandit role.
With more than one character per player abuse could be even worse, with players not only switching between a troll and a respectable person but also killing each other's high-bounty, no-advancement trolls to make their more permanent characters very rich, before starting new troll characters, which would be moderately weaker but less hot.
Make trolls a unique faction, make them stronger and easier to play compared to normal classes then give players/clans an incentive to kill trolls and you will see troll hunting parties :D
Guildmate 1: "Guys, theres a troll at North harbour slaughtering NPCs and newbies.
Guildmate 2: "Lets gather up at the portal and go troll hunting."
Guildmate 1: "Guys, theres a troll at North harbour slaughtering NPCs and newbies.
Guildmate 2: "Lets gather up at the portal and go troll hunting."
Balance does not mean identical. As a balanced race trolls might be stronger than others and in a 1v1 fight might win, but they need to have some weaknesses and penalties. One thing the the LotR is that Trolls turn to stone in daylight. You could make a weakness that any time a troll is exposed to light the slower they get (the stronger the light the slower they get untill in day light they can't move). Alsother thing is as they are turning to stone they become tougher (more natural armour as their skin is turning to stone).
This could give an interesting dynamic to a Troll as they might seek some light to toughen themselves up, but at a cost in speed and dexterity. Troll hunters might also exploit this by using lots of light spells to virtuall imobilise a group of Trolls (but then be unable to physically damage them because they are now made of rock) and use magic to do damage to them.
Races don't have to be identical, but can be balanced by using various advantages and disadvantages. In fact by using unique advantages and disadvanatages you can make races seem less "Cookie Cutter" or "Chrome" choice and more as a game play choice.
I fealt this way about the races in WoW. Each race, although having different stats, were fairly identical. They had 1 or 2 unique powers which amounted, mainly, to bonuses to stats or skills, but that was about it. They might call a skill or spell a differnet name, but its effects were not that different from each other. This made the choice of race purely an asthetic choice.
This could give an interesting dynamic to a Troll as they might seek some light to toughen themselves up, but at a cost in speed and dexterity. Troll hunters might also exploit this by using lots of light spells to virtuall imobilise a group of Trolls (but then be unable to physically damage them because they are now made of rock) and use magic to do damage to them.
Races don't have to be identical, but can be balanced by using various advantages and disadvantages. In fact by using unique advantages and disadvanatages you can make races seem less "Cookie Cutter" or "Chrome" choice and more as a game play choice.
I fealt this way about the races in WoW. Each race, although having different stats, were fairly identical. They had 1 or 2 unique powers which amounted, mainly, to bonuses to stats or skills, but that was about it. They might call a skill or spell a differnet name, but its effects were not that different from each other. This made the choice of race purely an asthetic choice.
Author
I like that light weakness a lot. I think it will go a long way while keeping their superior strength. I think on the PvE side, a troll's argo area should be 2-3 times that of any other race too. So while they are a powerhouse, they are going to attact a lot of unwanted attention. Otherwise it would be a walk in the park for going through dungeons.
Maybe some of the class abilities as a warrior are not available to the Troll, and some new ones are.
Back to the light issue. Maybe being a troll, if you fight at night, you can walk normally. Unless someone uses a light spell on them. During the day, They walk at 1/3 the speed they normally do, at least allowing any other race to easily get away from them. (The % of speed they could lose could be different, i just used an example).
The reason i'm very reluctant to balance the trolls out to make everyone happy, is that in no game have I ever been afraid of another player my own level. Sure when a level 60 runs in while the other is only 30 is one thing, but when both characters are 30, they fight thinking each can take the other. There's no sense of fear. In LOTR, Boromir said, "They have a cave troll!" in such a way that it's as if there's nothing left to go wrong. I want the same kind of feeling in my game. That when another group shows up with a cave troll (so it's either Horde vs Beast, Horde vs Alliance or whatever), the other group groans and says "Oh hell. A cave troll!" or something to that matter.
Maybe some of the class abilities as a warrior are not available to the Troll, and some new ones are.
Back to the light issue. Maybe being a troll, if you fight at night, you can walk normally. Unless someone uses a light spell on them. During the day, They walk at 1/3 the speed they normally do, at least allowing any other race to easily get away from them. (The % of speed they could lose could be different, i just used an example).
The reason i'm very reluctant to balance the trolls out to make everyone happy, is that in no game have I ever been afraid of another player my own level. Sure when a level 60 runs in while the other is only 30 is one thing, but when both characters are 30, they fight thinking each can take the other. There's no sense of fear. In LOTR, Boromir said, "They have a cave troll!" in such a way that it's as if there's nothing left to go wrong. I want the same kind of feeling in my game. That when another group shows up with a cave troll (so it's either Horde vs Beast, Horde vs Alliance or whatever), the other group groans and says "Oh hell. A cave troll!" or something to that matter.
Quote:Original post by trapdoor
The reason i'm very reluctant to balance the trolls out to make everyone happy, is that in no game have I ever been afraid of another player my own level. Sure when a level 60 runs in while the other is only 30 is one thing, but when both characters are 30, they fight thinking each can take the other. There's no sense of fear. In LOTR, Boromir said, "They have a cave troll!" in such a way that it's as if there's nothing left to go wrong. I want the same kind of feeling in my game. That when another group shows up with a cave troll (so it's either Horde vs Beast, Horde vs Alliance or whatever), the other group groans and says "Oh hell. A cave troll!" or something to that matter.
Yes, in hand-to-hand, make a troll worth 2-3 others. But they probably have limited ranged attacks, so archers and mages can do some damage at a distance. I think Iron Chef's idea is perfect, so long as there's something more to your game than just bashing heads. There is more to your game than bashing heads, right? Because, if there isn't, nobody is going to be happy unless they can bash heads like a troll.
Boromir needed a clean pair of pants after realizing they have a cave troll, but, due to other factors, he had no desire to be a cave troll.
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