Two things popped into my mind when I read this. One was a game that PC Gamer reviewed 3-4 years ago in which your sword leveled up with you. Unfortunately, that was the only good part of the game, according to PC Gamer. It got a score of about a 50%.
The next is the fantastic Geneforge series. If you are one of the many people unlucky enough to have never played one of these games, then you should know that in this game you play as a Shaper. A Shaper uses magic to create new life forms that can fight for them. You can get up to 7 creatures at one time. All of these can level up. As you progress into the game, you learn new creatures to make. However, I found myself often using my trusty Fyora (I misspelled that) from level one, simply becuase it was high level. While not exactly a weapon, for some players, it is their sole attack method.
But, I like this idea. I'm one of those people who horde gold and rarely like to buy new items. I always think, "Oh, I could buy something better next level." Having items that get better with experience would be nice to those like me.
How about items that grow?
There are a couple of things to think about before you decide on this. 1.)Do real knights / samurai / whoever keep a particular weapon for a long time, or are they viewed more disposably? 2.)Is there a good explanation for the item getting more powerful?
As for 1.), I'd say that it would be much more interesting to keep a trusty battle axe than to buy a new one in every town (I'm looking at you, SquEnix). I don't know what is more realistic historically, but I'd say it depends on the purpose of a weapon and its quality. A kodachi is sometimes used for surprise attacks, because it's small enough that it's easy to hide and easy to draw. These might not be made with permanence in mind, unlike the daisho (katana and wakizashi). Then again, Musashi himself said that being too familiar with one weapon was just as bad as not knowing how to use it.
To explain how it gets more powerful (2.), you could use the traditional model of having a skill in a certain class of weapons (club, staff, long sword). If you want a more intimate connection with a particular weapon, you could add an affinity counter that essentially just adds to your long sword skill with that particular weapon. In this way, nobody could steal it from you and expect to use it as well as you do.
Alternatively, you could use the idea of soul gems from Elder Scrolls, but instead of just inserting magic into it, you could tame the soul in the gem and have that trapped soul be the one leveling up. Sentient weapons like Kring from Discworld or Stormbringer from the Elric books could add a nice dynamic to the lone adventurer cliche.
As for 1.), I'd say that it would be much more interesting to keep a trusty battle axe than to buy a new one in every town (I'm looking at you, SquEnix). I don't know what is more realistic historically, but I'd say it depends on the purpose of a weapon and its quality. A kodachi is sometimes used for surprise attacks, because it's small enough that it's easy to hide and easy to draw. These might not be made with permanence in mind, unlike the daisho (katana and wakizashi). Then again, Musashi himself said that being too familiar with one weapon was just as bad as not knowing how to use it.
To explain how it gets more powerful (2.), you could use the traditional model of having a skill in a certain class of weapons (club, staff, long sword). If you want a more intimate connection with a particular weapon, you could add an affinity counter that essentially just adds to your long sword skill with that particular weapon. In this way, nobody could steal it from you and expect to use it as well as you do.
Alternatively, you could use the idea of soul gems from Elder Scrolls, but instead of just inserting magic into it, you could tame the soul in the gem and have that trapped soul be the one leveling up. Sentient weapons like Kring from Discworld or Stormbringer from the Elric books could add a nice dynamic to the lone adventurer cliche.
Quote:Original post by EzbezThat sounds a lot like what I suggested, though it probably doesn't use an actual genetic system. Would Pokemon be a good example of a game where your "weapons" level up with you? I imagine that some similar game choices would come up, like whether to stick with your old high-level Pokemon, or work on your new ones.
The next is the fantastic Geneforge series. If you are one of the many people unlucky enough to have never played one of these games, then you should know that in this game you play as a Shaper. A Shaper uses magic to create new life forms that can fight for them. You can get up to 7 creatures at one time. All of these can level up. As you progress into the game, you learn new creatures to make. However, I found myself often using my trusty Fyora (I misspelled that) from level one, simply becuase it was high level. While not exactly a weapon, for some players, it is their sole attack method.
Speaking of TES:Oblivion -- was anyone else not such a big fan of the world-levelling system?
Obviously, the further you progress in a game, the more challenges you expect to face -- but I don't really like levelled enemies if only because of this kind of situation:
"PC is wandering along a road between cities. A dodgy looking fellow jumps out and demands money. PC gets to hand over their monies and avoid combat...or fight. PC defeats the bandit and loots his body. Turns out the bandit was carrying weapons and/or armor worth $$$."
Can anyone see the problem here? Why the hell would someone waylay you if they could sell a gauntlet and be living the high life? In TES: Morrowind -- if you knew where to look, or were powerful enough -- you could get high level armor and weapons. This equipment was less useful the lower your level, but it was always where it was -supposed- to be.
In Oblivion, if you grind low level dungeons, you know (unless you are on a quest specifically looking for something) that any loot you find will be levelled for your level. Hence, it defeats the purpose of even looking! If I know I can't find any 'phat lewt' by grinding...I won't! I find the whole idea repugnant that no matter what travails you go through, you'll still only get 'a little bit better' weapons and armor unless you're level XX super.
This translates the original problem to something even more ridiculous -- while Oblivion has unique items that are better than standard fare...people like our bandit generally speaking are carrying around some pretty damn good stuff once you reach a decent level (we're talking lvl 18 and up here). So much so that if you get waylaid it's a -good- thing, because chances are you can avoid having to pay out the rear-end for expensive loot :P
Thoughts? I really -really- don't like the oblivion system, and personally -- I like the idea that you find a better weapon instead of upgrading your old one. If you have a sword made out of bronze, even if you cast lvl 8. chicken of the Infinite (kudos to Bash.org) on it, your sword is still bronze and essentially...crud.
~Shiny.
Obviously, the further you progress in a game, the more challenges you expect to face -- but I don't really like levelled enemies if only because of this kind of situation:
"PC is wandering along a road between cities. A dodgy looking fellow jumps out and demands money. PC gets to hand over their monies and avoid combat...or fight. PC defeats the bandit and loots his body. Turns out the bandit was carrying weapons and/or armor worth $$$."
Can anyone see the problem here? Why the hell would someone waylay you if they could sell a gauntlet and be living the high life? In TES: Morrowind -- if you knew where to look, or were powerful enough -- you could get high level armor and weapons. This equipment was less useful the lower your level, but it was always where it was -supposed- to be.
In Oblivion, if you grind low level dungeons, you know (unless you are on a quest specifically looking for something) that any loot you find will be levelled for your level. Hence, it defeats the purpose of even looking! If I know I can't find any 'phat lewt' by grinding...I won't! I find the whole idea repugnant that no matter what travails you go through, you'll still only get 'a little bit better' weapons and armor unless you're level XX super.
This translates the original problem to something even more ridiculous -- while Oblivion has unique items that are better than standard fare...people like our bandit generally speaking are carrying around some pretty damn good stuff once you reach a decent level (we're talking lvl 18 and up here). So much so that if you get waylaid it's a -good- thing, because chances are you can avoid having to pay out the rear-end for expensive loot :P
Thoughts? I really -really- don't like the oblivion system, and personally -- I like the idea that you find a better weapon instead of upgrading your old one. If you have a sword made out of bronze, even if you cast lvl 8. chicken of the Infinite (kudos to Bash.org) on it, your sword is still bronze and essentially...crud.
~Shiny.
Author
Great responses everyone, I'm just going though them and thinking about various things [smile] Keep em' coming!
how about having item life cycles? items start weak, grow stronger over time, peaks at a certain level then wanes slowly. At the end of its life you could add
a function like the item/weapon can be resurrected to create a new weapon which might be stronger. Perhaps breeding/recycling weapons. for example "Damocles" + "Azoth" creates "Excalibur" which might be stronger than either of the two when they started with the added advantage of being young and not peaked yet. It gives an incentive to keep older weapons even though they degrade over time because they might be combined at the end of their lifespan.
a function like the item/weapon can be resurrected to create a new weapon which might be stronger. Perhaps breeding/recycling weapons. for example "Damocles" + "Azoth" creates "Excalibur" which might be stronger than either of the two when they started with the added advantage of being young and not peaked yet. It gives an incentive to keep older weapons even though they degrade over time because they might be combined at the end of their lifespan.
There is the materia from Final Fantasy 7-
They start out with just basic spells and then as you collect Ap they grow and get better spells. You could probably build a system where you grow "materia" and then permanently set them into items like weapons or something. Then as the materia grows it adds stats to the item. there might be some crystals that seem totally useles unless certain requirments are met, or have multiple level-up schemes.
They start out with just basic spells and then as you collect Ap they grow and get better spells. You could probably build a system where you grow "materia" and then permanently set them into items like weapons or something. Then as the materia grows it adds stats to the item. there might be some crystals that seem totally useles unless certain requirments are met, or have multiple level-up schemes.
In the Kingmaker expansion to Nevewinter nights they have a weapon that grows. At certain points in the game you have the ability to upgrade your wepaon by giving it new abilities and powers. As the game progresses yuo keep the weapon and it's abilities grwo with you.
I dislike reading lengthy posts but here goes one haha. (Edit: Not as bad as I thought it was going to be haha)
I like this idea of having gear that can advance with you. Here is a system that I would forsee as being interesting and still more on the balanced side.
Items would be upgradeable based on an XP of sorts that I will call 'character'. Basically what character is when an item such as weapon, shield, armor are worn/used in combat the players traits or strength is somewhat rubbed into the item. The player would then be able to access a menu somehow in the game, possibly crafter/enchater or whatever.
They would then spend this 'character xp' on the upgrades. The upgrades would cost different amounts based on the type of upgrade and the intensity of it. Example, a +1 damage to orcs might cost 500xp, where as a general +1 to damage may be 2,500xp, and then +5 damage to orcs could be 2,500xp. Then maybe something like 5% lifesteal can be 100,000xp etc...
If you are worried about players hording up points on an item for more power faster, have a max limit of points the item could ever acquire. You would basically need 3 variables; Gained, Max Gain, and Spendable. Whenever you gain XP with the item it adds to both Gained and Spendable, unless Gained would exceed Max then in that case the item can't level anymore. Spendable is the one where you do deductions when choosing enhancements to add, not to go below 0. Also if you wanted for an element of coolness, when the item has been fully leveled up you can finally name it, woot woot!
Anyways, with the system described above you could limit lowered leveled items to lower max experience to enforce less powerful effects and limits. The player would eventually would want to choose to acquire a stronger base item to level up with a stronger potential.
If you're like me and don't want to level up everything in a players inventory just from questing because it's too powerful, then perhaps a 'favor system' as I'm going to call it would be nice. So basically the player chooses from a menu which item is in 'favor', meaning when they kill things and gain item experience that is the only item that gains experience. A player would be forced to choose between favoring his boots over his weapon at a cost of killing power to eventually get his boots of speed, etc...
Also another twist to the favor system is have multiple favored items with different priority. For example a system with three favored items. Top priority would get 60% of gained item experience, the second could get 30% and last would get 10%.
Well there's the concepts I had on leveling items up, hope you enjoyed them :)
I like this idea of having gear that can advance with you. Here is a system that I would forsee as being interesting and still more on the balanced side.
Items would be upgradeable based on an XP of sorts that I will call 'character'. Basically what character is when an item such as weapon, shield, armor are worn/used in combat the players traits or strength is somewhat rubbed into the item. The player would then be able to access a menu somehow in the game, possibly crafter/enchater or whatever.
They would then spend this 'character xp' on the upgrades. The upgrades would cost different amounts based on the type of upgrade and the intensity of it. Example, a +1 damage to orcs might cost 500xp, where as a general +1 to damage may be 2,500xp, and then +5 damage to orcs could be 2,500xp. Then maybe something like 5% lifesteal can be 100,000xp etc...
If you are worried about players hording up points on an item for more power faster, have a max limit of points the item could ever acquire. You would basically need 3 variables; Gained, Max Gain, and Spendable. Whenever you gain XP with the item it adds to both Gained and Spendable, unless Gained would exceed Max then in that case the item can't level anymore. Spendable is the one where you do deductions when choosing enhancements to add, not to go below 0. Also if you wanted for an element of coolness, when the item has been fully leveled up you can finally name it, woot woot!
Anyways, with the system described above you could limit lowered leveled items to lower max experience to enforce less powerful effects and limits. The player would eventually would want to choose to acquire a stronger base item to level up with a stronger potential.
If you're like me and don't want to level up everything in a players inventory just from questing because it's too powerful, then perhaps a 'favor system' as I'm going to call it would be nice. So basically the player chooses from a menu which item is in 'favor', meaning when they kill things and gain item experience that is the only item that gains experience. A player would be forced to choose between favoring his boots over his weapon at a cost of killing power to eventually get his boots of speed, etc...
Also another twist to the favor system is have multiple favored items with different priority. For example a system with three favored items. Top priority would get 60% of gained item experience, the second could get 30% and last would get 10%.
Well there's the concepts I had on leveling items up, hope you enjoyed them :)
This is a great idea which has been tackled in different forms and manners. I think the first things that need to be considered are the fallowing.
Is this a MMO game or a single player game?
How does this effect the world and what validates its exsistance?
How will this change how the player interacts with the world and the systems
you are goin to build within it?
To have a single weapon that increases as you use it over time is a great idea in theory. But in a MMO type setting economy is a big issues. If a player feels promoted not to change weapons or has no need to buy things ((acceptable money sinks)) than this is goin to hurt the game more than anything.
A possible way to get the best of both words if you were dealing with a MMO setting could be a "profecancy" per say. Meaning, lets say there are types of swords. Ex: Long sword, short sword, and my personal favorate a Duchang((duel ended sword)). Now When you use a type of weapon you start at a 50% profecancy of that type. So you do not use the weapon at its full potential. By staying with this "type" of weapon over time, your profecancy will increase eventully to 100%. Which would mean you are using this type of weapon for its full value.
This would give the designer a way to allow the player to still desire to buy better versions of that type of sword. Also giving more economic mechanical freedom.
Is this a MMO game or a single player game?
How does this effect the world and what validates its exsistance?
How will this change how the player interacts with the world and the systems
you are goin to build within it?
To have a single weapon that increases as you use it over time is a great idea in theory. But in a MMO type setting economy is a big issues. If a player feels promoted not to change weapons or has no need to buy things ((acceptable money sinks)) than this is goin to hurt the game more than anything.
A possible way to get the best of both words if you were dealing with a MMO setting could be a "profecancy" per say. Meaning, lets say there are types of swords. Ex: Long sword, short sword, and my personal favorate a Duchang((duel ended sword)). Now When you use a type of weapon you start at a 50% profecancy of that type. So you do not use the weapon at its full potential. By staying with this "type" of weapon over time, your profecancy will increase eventully to 100%. Which would mean you are using this type of weapon for its full value.
This would give the designer a way to allow the player to still desire to buy better versions of that type of sword. Also giving more economic mechanical freedom.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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